straight 30 weight vs 10w 30
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Originally Posted By: used_0il
Being pragmatic and all that, I wouldn't dare use the word always. I always went to the same bar in my home town for a beer and the same 10 people were always there sitting on the same stools, always telling the same stories for 20 years. They always drank the same brand of beer and always smoked the same brand of cigarettes. I always knew what they were going to say before they said it like "When did you get out of prison?". The last time I went there the place was cleaned up, the people were dressed better, new tables and chairs, but nobody I knew. When two of the guys got up and started dancing together, that is when I left. Before that day I always took at least a minute to down a beer, not 7 seconds, and now I always look around before ordering a drink. The SAE 40 I'm using has a HTHS of 4.2 and the 15W40 I was using 4.4 period.
Cool story bro!
Being pragmatic and all that, I wouldn't dare use the word always. I always went to the same bar in my home town for a beer and the same 10 people were always there sitting on the same stools, always telling the same stories for 20 years. They always drank the same brand of beer and always smoked the same brand of cigarettes. I always knew what they were going to say before they said it like "When did you get out of prison?". The last time I went there the place was cleaned up, the people were dressed better, new tables and chairs, but nobody I knew. When two of the guys got up and started dancing together, that is when I left. Before that day I always took at least a minute to down a beer, not 7 seconds, and now I always look around before ordering a drink. The SAE 40 I'm using has a HTHS of 4.2 and the 15W40 I was using 4.4 period.
Cool story bro!
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Originally Posted By: used_0il
The opposite way of looking at a 10W30 is that it is an SAE 30 engine oil that passes the cold cranking, cold flow and pumping requirements for a 10W winter grade classification. What is an SAE 30 engine oil? It is an oil that falls between the maximum and minimum 100C viscosity and minimum high temperature hot shear for an SAE30, but it does not carry a winter rating or is tested for a winter rating. To state that an SAE multi grade 10W30 is an SAE 10W that is as thick at 100C as an SAE 30 with a corresponding HTHS minimum is what opposite is to me. The use of additives to allow an SAE 30 to pass the 10W winter rating is not necessarily needed when a high VI base stock is used, taking the Newtonian argument out of the picture. The surprising fact that I can't get my head around is that this site is at least 12 years old, and these basic facts of oil classifications are being being discussed by some of the original members. (Who obviously have not learned a thing, but have post counts into the tens of thousands)
Yup. It seems people, even those who have been here a while, seem to think that the number in front of the W is a complementary SAE grade, IE, SAE 10 or SAE 5 or SAE 15, so that it is SAE 10 when cold (the post I replied to stated that) rather than just meeting the performance requirements of the 10W (or 0W, 5W, 15W....etc) designation, which specify a maximum CCS and MRV that the oil needs to be below.
So if you have a 30-weight oil that meets the cold temp requirements to carry the 10w designation, then it is a 10w-30. It really is that simply. And of particular note, especially when it pertains to the 10w-30 grade, is that this can be satisfied, as I noted earlier, without the use of VII's, simply capitalizing on the naturally excellent cold flow characteristics of the base oils used.
The opposite way of looking at a 10W30 is that it is an SAE 30 engine oil that passes the cold cranking, cold flow and pumping requirements for a 10W winter grade classification. What is an SAE 30 engine oil? It is an oil that falls between the maximum and minimum 100C viscosity and minimum high temperature hot shear for an SAE30, but it does not carry a winter rating or is tested for a winter rating. To state that an SAE multi grade 10W30 is an SAE 10W that is as thick at 100C as an SAE 30 with a corresponding HTHS minimum is what opposite is to me. The use of additives to allow an SAE 30 to pass the 10W winter rating is not necessarily needed when a high VI base stock is used, taking the Newtonian argument out of the picture. The surprising fact that I can't get my head around is that this site is at least 12 years old, and these basic facts of oil classifications are being being discussed by some of the original members. (Who obviously have not learned a thing, but have post counts into the tens of thousands)
Yup. It seems people, even those who have been here a while, seem to think that the number in front of the W is a complementary SAE grade, IE, SAE 10 or SAE 5 or SAE 15, so that it is SAE 10 when cold (the post I replied to stated that) rather than just meeting the performance requirements of the 10W (or 0W, 5W, 15W....etc) designation, which specify a maximum CCS and MRV that the oil needs to be below.
So if you have a 30-weight oil that meets the cold temp requirements to carry the 10w designation, then it is a 10w-30. It really is that simply. And of particular note, especially when it pertains to the 10w-30 grade, is that this can be satisfied, as I noted earlier, without the use of VII's, simply capitalizing on the naturally excellent cold flow characteristics of the base oils used.
Originally Posted By: lilrobo
after reading all this ,, i am thinking that 10w 40 would be better than straight 30 , that is after reaching running temp .. because the 40 would be thicker than the 30 ??
should i go to a straight 40 for summer time use ??
thanks
Not a fan of common PCMO mineral 10w40- too wide of a vis. spread, always known to shear badly, rely too much on VIIs. Now that's a grade more obsolete than 10w30, IMO
OTOH, racing 10w40s like Mobil 1 MX4T or Redline will blow most any other 40 grade out of the water, in extreme condition lubrication and breakdown protection. But no, not in long drain intervals or TBN retention,just otherwise.
after reading all this ,, i am thinking that 10w 40 would be better than straight 30 , that is after reaching running temp .. because the 40 would be thicker than the 30 ??
should i go to a straight 40 for summer time use ??
thanks
Not a fan of common PCMO mineral 10w40- too wide of a vis. spread, always known to shear badly, rely too much on VIIs. Now that's a grade more obsolete than 10w30, IMO
OTOH, racing 10w40s like Mobil 1 MX4T or Redline will blow most any other 40 grade out of the water, in extreme condition lubrication and breakdown protection. But no, not in long drain intervals or TBN retention,just otherwise.
I did a little torture test on 10W40 with my duramax. Pet Can 10W40 PCMO has almost the same viscosity specs as their Syn-blend HDMO CJ-4. I go to great lengths to drain as much of the old oil as I can such as draining hot, parking up hill and jacking up the front right tire and letting nature take its course over night. I did a short run of 600 miles with the 10W40 PCMO, then drained it, changed the filter and re filled the engine with fresh 10W40. When you drain a duramax like this, expect to use about 12 US quarts of oil for the refill. The truck went on a long 3000 mile trip the first month, then another 1,000 miles per month for the next 4 months for a total of 7,800 miles. The OMS showed 20% left when I drained it. On the long trip the economy was better I thought than 15W40, the oil pressure the same or very slightly higher, but not lower. Unassisted cold starts, meaning the block heater was not plugged in, down to the 10W limit of -30C was worse than I expected. I'll never run 10wXX in the winter again. The jaw dropper was the UOA showed the 100C viscosity dropped from a new sample of the same oil of 15.4 to 11.5, and the 40C down to 88.6. This is with the oil having a very good start on life. The additive package was in good shape, the wear metals ok except the Duramax copper thing at 14, soot nothing for a diesel and antifreeze negative. The cold start performance should have been better especially now that the oil had sheared down considerably but was unimpressive. Perhaps I've been spoiled on 0W40 and 5W40 for too many years, because at first I was impressed with those oils enough to get out of the plugging in the block heater habit in the winter, which is a secondary cost saving measure.
The essay that Yvon posted stated that an oil company cannot understate the "W" rating of an engine oil. Therefore if an oil can pass the 5W tests, it has to be labeled as such. Typically high VI conventional base mono grade engine oils will pass a "W" test, such that an SAE 30 may pass a 15W test, to stay within the rules there is no recognized grade of SAE 15W30.
This is good stuff if you understand, , sorry i just dint get it, , its way over my head, ,i am just tring to figure out the best oil to run and get the best oil pressure untill i figure out what i am doing, keep it ot sell it, , i havent done anything yet, i do have a new gauge and 5 gt of sae 30 penn
i think i am going to install the gauge with the 10 w 40 in there and see what it is and do theoil change and see then
Thanks for all the info i wish i under stood it
i think i am going to install the gauge with the 10 w 40 in there and see what it is and do theoil change and see then Thanks for all the info i wish i under stood it
Originally Posted By: used_0il
The essay that Yvon posted stated that an oil company cannot understate the "W" rating of an engine oil. Therefore if an oil can pass the 5W tests, it has to be labeled as such. Typically high VI conventional base mono grade engine oils will pass a "W" test, such that an SAE 30 may pass a 15W test, to stay within the rules there is no recognized grade of SAE 15W30.
15W-30 could entirely be a grade, and it was sold in Australia as such.
A straight grade, i.e. purely Newtonian, no VII fluid that is a 30, AND meets a multigrade can be sold as either, or dual labelled.
Any that have VII have to be labelled as the lowest specification that it meets.
i.e. you can't put 5W-30 in a bottle labelled 10W-30, but you can have it in a bottle labelled SAE30, assuming that it (unlikely) met 5W-30 without VII...Amsoil 10W-30/SAE30 just happens to be a straight (no VII) 30 that meets the 10W specs.
The essay that Yvon posted stated that an oil company cannot understate the "W" rating of an engine oil. Therefore if an oil can pass the 5W tests, it has to be labeled as such. Typically high VI conventional base mono grade engine oils will pass a "W" test, such that an SAE 30 may pass a 15W test, to stay within the rules there is no recognized grade of SAE 15W30.
15W-30 could entirely be a grade, and it was sold in Australia as such.
A straight grade, i.e. purely Newtonian, no VII fluid that is a 30, AND meets a multigrade can be sold as either, or dual labelled.
Any that have VII have to be labelled as the lowest specification that it meets.
i.e. you can't put 5W-30 in a bottle labelled 10W-30, but you can have it in a bottle labelled SAE30, assuming that it (unlikely) met 5W-30 without VII...Amsoil 10W-30/SAE30 just happens to be a straight (no VII) 30 that meets the 10W specs.
Obviously this has turned into a court case instead oil discussion. The following oil designations ; 15W30, 20W30, 25W30, 15W20, 10W20 could all be grades, but they are not SAE grades. A marketer may put 3W20 on the label, but not with SAE ahead of it. I have seen 3W20 on bottles of race oil and its a joke. At what temperature would the 3W tests be conducted at -32.5C and -37.5C? Next winter I'm going to use 3W30 because it is not going to be cold enough to warrant 0W30, but too cold for 5W30. Better get out the butterfly net, the prozac, the thorizine....Think like a man then take away reason and accountability is about the only need for a 3W rating to ever exist. What, are 5C degree increments too far apart? Medic!
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Obviously this has turned into a court case instead oil discussion. The following oil designations ; 15W30, 20W30, 25W30, 15W20, 10W20 could all be grades
Yes they could, as can 20W20, but not 25W20
Originally Posted By: used_0il
but they are not SAE grades.
Yes, they are, as the xW is defined, as is the latter number...an oil that meets both the cold and the hot is labelled as an xWy, if it meets those specification.
Originally Posted By: used_0il
A marketer may put 3W20 on the label, but not with SAE ahead of it. I have seen 3W20 on bottles of race oil and its a joke. At what temperature would the 3W tests be conducted at -32.5C and -37.5C? Next winter I'm going to use 3W30 because it is not going to be cold enough to warrant 0W30, but too cold for 5W30.
Strawman much ?
They are not grades in the J300 tables, and are therefore not what we/I was discussing when you claimed that 15W30 was not an SAE grade...it is, 3W is not...simple
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3/7/0...l_viscosity.pdf
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Better get out the butterfly net, the prozac, the thorizine....Think like a man then take away reason and accountability is about the only need for a 3W rating to ever exist. What, are 5C degree increments too far apart? Medic!
classy...bet you are the life of the party when someone disagrees with you.
Obviously this has turned into a court case instead oil discussion. The following oil designations ; 15W30, 20W30, 25W30, 15W20, 10W20 could all be grades
Yes they could, as can 20W20, but not 25W20
Originally Posted By: used_0il
but they are not SAE grades.
Yes, they are, as the xW is defined, as is the latter number...an oil that meets both the cold and the hot is labelled as an xWy, if it meets those specification.
Originally Posted By: used_0il
A marketer may put 3W20 on the label, but not with SAE ahead of it. I have seen 3W20 on bottles of race oil and its a joke. At what temperature would the 3W tests be conducted at -32.5C and -37.5C? Next winter I'm going to use 3W30 because it is not going to be cold enough to warrant 0W30, but too cold for 5W30.
Strawman much ?
They are not grades in the J300 tables, and are therefore not what we/I was discussing when you claimed that 15W30 was not an SAE grade...it is, 3W is not...simple
http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3/7/0...l_viscosity.pdf
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Better get out the butterfly net, the prozac, the thorizine....Think like a man then take away reason and accountability is about the only need for a 3W rating to ever exist. What, are 5C degree increments too far apart? Medic!
classy...bet you are the life of the party when someone disagrees with you.
Really no need to stress. 0-30, 5-30, 10-30, SAE 30 will ALL work great in warm temps.
Update
With the gauge i showed and running 10w40 here is what i have, ,,
idle in park at 900-1000 rpm 20 lbs
In gear at 500-600 rpm 12 lbs, ,
Be nice to get the in gear rpm up with out have it scream in park, i am going to change oil to sae 30 penn and do it again the whole time i had it in car port idleing and got to 190 deg ot bad for that either i guess,
Thanks
With the gauge i showed and running 10w40 here is what i have, ,,
idle in park at 900-1000 rpm 20 lbs
In gear at 500-600 rpm 12 lbs, ,
Be nice to get the in gear rpm up with out have it scream in park, i am going to change oil to sae 30 penn and do it again the whole time i had it in car port idleing and got to 190 deg ot bad for that either i guess,
Thanks
Originally Posted By: used_0il
The jaw dropper was the UOA showed the 100C viscosity dropped from a new sample of the same oil of 15.4 to 11.5, and the 40C down to 88.6. This is with the oil having a very good start on life.
not surprised. mineral PCMO 10w40 generally speaking, appears to be made as 10w30 with more VII. terrible stuff
The jaw dropper was the UOA showed the 100C viscosity dropped from a new sample of the same oil of 15.4 to 11.5, and the 40C down to 88.6. This is with the oil having a very good start on life.
not surprised. mineral PCMO 10w40 generally speaking, appears to be made as 10w30 with more VII. terrible stuff
Originally Posted By: lilrobo
Update
With the gauge i showed and running 10w40 here is what i have, ,,
idle in park at 900-1000 rpm 20 lbs
In gear at 500-600 rpm 12 lbs, ,
Be nice to get the in gear rpm up with out have it scream in park, i am going to change oil to sae 30 penn and do it again the whole time i had it in car port idleing and got to 190 deg ot bad for that either i guess,
Thanks
60% jump in backpressure between a 400rpm range just off idle? Considering it's achieved by the corresponding positive displacement alone working against an orificed system, just imagine the excess of pumped displacement at 3000, 8000rpm
Update
With the gauge i showed and running 10w40 here is what i have, ,,
idle in park at 900-1000 rpm 20 lbs
In gear at 500-600 rpm 12 lbs, ,
Be nice to get the in gear rpm up with out have it scream in park, i am going to change oil to sae 30 penn and do it again the whole time i had it in car port idleing and got to 190 deg ot bad for that either i guess,
Thanks
60% jump in backpressure between a 400rpm range just off idle? Considering it's achieved by the corresponding positive displacement alone working against an orificed system, just imagine the excess of pumped displacement at 3000, 8000rpm
Originally Posted By: Shannow
They are not grades in the J300 tables, and are therefore not what we/I was discussing when you claimed that 15W30 was not an SAE grade...it is, 3W is not...simple
Exactly. Just because we don't see it commonly doesn't mean it's not a valid grade. If it's listed, it's a grade. We don't see 20w-20 very often. Walk into an Imperial Oil warehouse, and you'd think that 20w-50 and 10w-40 aren't grades either.
They are not grades in the J300 tables, and are therefore not what we/I was discussing when you claimed that 15W30 was not an SAE grade...it is, 3W is not...simple
Exactly. Just because we don't see it commonly doesn't mean it's not a valid grade. If it's listed, it's a grade. We don't see 20w-20 very often. Walk into an Imperial Oil warehouse, and you'd think that 20w-50 and 10w-40 aren't grades either.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: used_0il
The jaw dropper was the UOA showed the 100C viscosity dropped from a new sample of the same oil of 15.4 to 11.5, and the 40C down to 88.6. This is with the oil having a very good start on life.
not surprised. mineral PCMO 10w40 generally speaking, appears to be made as 10w30 with more VII. terrible stuff
Very very correct...see the Afton VII treat rate at the bottom of this data sheet
http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Engine Oil/HiTEC-5751_PDS.pdf
10W-30, 15W-40, and 20W-50 demonstrate why they are so shear stable compared to 10W-40...and why I don't consider them obsolete at all in the right climate....and why 5W-30 is still a better idea than 10W-40 by a long way.
Originally Posted By: used_0il
The jaw dropper was the UOA showed the 100C viscosity dropped from a new sample of the same oil of 15.4 to 11.5, and the 40C down to 88.6. This is with the oil having a very good start on life.
not surprised. mineral PCMO 10w40 generally speaking, appears to be made as 10w30 with more VII. terrible stuff
Very very correct...see the Afton VII treat rate at the bottom of this data sheet
http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Engine Oil/HiTEC-5751_PDS.pdf
10W-30, 15W-40, and 20W-50 demonstrate why they are so shear stable compared to 10W-40...and why I don't consider them obsolete at all in the right climate....and why 5W-30 is still a better idea than 10W-40 by a long way.
Sometimes I wonder if Sir I Newton is the right mathematician to be referred to in lubricant discussions. I thought fluid dynamics belonged to the Italians.
Nevertheless, the minute I drove the truck with the SAE 40 in it I wished I had tried SAE 30 instead. The 1st week the truck saw 1,300 miles. It will be interesting, however to see how long it takes the SAE 40 to shear down to an SAE 30, or if it will.
My old truck, an 06 Duramax had SAE 30 listed as an optional lubricant above freezing. My daughter has that truck now with 85,000 miles on it and gets 5W40 once a year whether it needs it or not. I figure that it is better to have the winter protection and not need it than need it and not have it.
I wouldn't paint all 10W40s with the same brush. Motorcycle engine oils would get chopped up in a week if they were blended the same way. So much for VIIs being shear resistant. Maybe some of them are. Perhaps the Duramax is harder on VIIs than other engines. Just not that oil in this engine ever again.
The original question was SAE 30 instead of 10W30, what is the difference?
I don't know, but it was fun while it lasted.
Nevertheless, the minute I drove the truck with the SAE 40 in it I wished I had tried SAE 30 instead. The 1st week the truck saw 1,300 miles. It will be interesting, however to see how long it takes the SAE 40 to shear down to an SAE 30, or if it will.
My old truck, an 06 Duramax had SAE 30 listed as an optional lubricant above freezing. My daughter has that truck now with 85,000 miles on it and gets 5W40 once a year whether it needs it or not. I figure that it is better to have the winter protection and not need it than need it and not have it.
I wouldn't paint all 10W40s with the same brush. Motorcycle engine oils would get chopped up in a week if they were blended the same way. So much for VIIs being shear resistant. Maybe some of them are. Perhaps the Duramax is harder on VIIs than other engines. Just not that oil in this engine ever again.
The original question was SAE 30 instead of 10W30, what is the difference?
I don't know, but it was fun while it lasted.
So i am understanding that not all 10w40 are the same? i cant wait till i get the SAE30 in and check the gauge, , i will post the results,, ineed to install the gauge into the dash too thats the hard part, i like this one better, i cansee low numbers not that i want to lol
Be back later
Thanks
Be back later
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