Fram filters really bad?

[Propflux01]

Filter Guy: the one thing is this thread which it seems to me you have not put up an arguement with is the Oil change interval. While "Your" car may require 3000/6000 mile intervals, most vehicles require 3000/5000/7500 mile intervals with some recommending filter changes every OTHER oil change. Now if your beloved FRAM (or other filter)is designed to meet or exceed OEM specs, than technically, for Non-severe service, ANY filter, designed as above posted, should last up to 15000 miles without a problem. There are too many instances of failed ADBV's namley with the FRAM filters. Too many to ignore or 'write off' as 'overextended changes', etc. You stated if FRAM was so bad, why have they had this design for 20 odd years? well, I have an answer: Most people do not know or care to take the time to really look at something as 'menial' as a filter. Period. Most, go by name only, they see it on a Racecar and figure it is a good product no matter what. Remember when STP Oil treatment was the big shiznit? How many people nowadays actually USE that thick stuff? Same with the FRAM. People also buy on price. It is cheap to purchase (the regular orange can), cheap to stock. and the Name sells it. I just feel that most 'conditions' that a filter see's, are what 90% of every car made see's. Cars, like filters, are disposable nowadays. Why should FRAM, or any other Company worry, whether thier filter will allow thier engine to last 500,000 miles? Most people will rid themselves of the car long before then...

 

[ZR2RANDO]

The adbv is not (not always anyway) the cause of the cold start valve train noise that Fram users have experienced. If the adbv is the problem the symptom is a delay in oil pressure buildup of only a couple seconds. The problem with Fram filters is that they do not flow enough oil to satisfy the requirements of the engine, at least not until the oil has thinned out to operating temps sufficiently anyway. This noise last several minutes until the oil warms up to operating temp. This is due to insufficient filter media area. Other filters do not have this problem. Those of us who have experienced this first hand know full well that the filter was the problem, and that any other alternative filter corrected the problem. Read a few posts earlier in this topic and you get the full description of the Fram issues…
These filters caused problems starting the day they were installed- they did NOT just have problems due to extended OCI, or owner neglect, or color of the vehicle, or length of driveway, or type of shirt that driver was wearing or anything else. These filters caused problems that were remedied by switching filter brands-plain and simple.

Filter Guy likes to say that ALL filters meet (or exceed!) OEM specs, seems to be one of his favorite phrases… if these filters are actually meeting OEM specs (and I am NOT saying that they are…) then those mfgrs OEM specs are absolutely meaningless. He may consider that to be acceptable, but I definitely do not. If those OEM specs actually do specify certain flowrates that would satisfy engine requirements then these Fram filters are definitely NOT meeting those specs….either way, Fram filters have been proven to be inferior products to most other brands, with the exception possibly of the cheap Champ filters.
Filter Guy keeps trying to bring up that a high number of people keep Fram filtered vehicles up to high mileages- I’m sure that is true to a certain degree.
Lots of folks will smoke cigarettes most of their life and then die of a car accident…but at the time of their death they were having lung/breathing problems as well. Not every smoker dies of lung cancer..
Lots of people will drink and drive every night of the week, and get away with it until maybe 2 yrs later they actually do have a wreck and kill themselves, but for 2 years everything was just fine and dandy…statistically though- they were goners…from day one. They also may not actually kill themselves, they may just cripple themselves..for the rest of their lives.
Filter Guy always wants to say that these obvious filter failures (cheap Champs and Frams for the most part) are always due to owner neglect and outside conditions. Filter Guy always wants to say that OCI intervals are xxxx miles and that the failures are always due to 1.5 X xxxxx miles, but there are too many vehicles that have mfgr recommended OCI’s longer than what these filters seem to be dealing with for his theories to actually bear weight…

If these poor quality filters want to use the excuse of “I’m a cheap filter, so I should only be used for maximum 3000 miles” they should say so on the box. If they want to brag about “meeting specs” however, they need to be built accordingly. As long as they brag about “meeting specs”, people will expect them to actually meet specs whatever those specs may be, and if the owner’s manual says 10k oci, then you would think that the spec would agree…with that aspect at least.

It is common knowledge that most people don’t cut open used filters, and consequently never know if they have defective filter issues. Most people don’t keep vehicles forever so they never see any old age (poor quality oil filter related) problems. Most oil change shops would never want to cut open used filters because they might actually see the poor quality of those filters.

Filter Guy goes on and on about how it is always some fault other than the quality of the filter…he just doesn’t see that some brands of filters who also have economy lines of filters just don’t show up in the “poor quality” filter category..

I don’t know who the (Filter Guy. #7580) imposter was, but the context of his statement “so I can stalemate any discussion”
was accurate enough. I hate that someone did the imposter thing, funny as it may have been….but the statement was legitimate. Somebody should get credit for saying it.

 

[brianl703]

I hit the report post button on the fake filter guy's first post. That post got nuked. I knew it was an imposter.

 

[Bio-T]

Filter guy,

We can look at the ISP of each person registering, but the problem is that some of the servers changes the last 2 or 3 digits on each log in on that ISP. Also on AOL members all but the last 2 digits are normally the same. So we don't look at ISP unless it is a problem. Then we can research it. Our present program is set up to check the email address and user name only. In your case the period/dot at the end was enough to not alert the system that a duplicate was in progress.

With all that said, the following is an email I recieved yesterday when I was checking each new member and searching ISP's:

***** man, you guys are like nazis about getting onto this forum. It's
not that big of a forum to make it so time taking to get on it. You guys
have got to streamline this somehow. Just my two cents. ....waiting to
get access to the forum.....


I hope this explains why we try to find the balance and do spend many hours trying to keep this from happening. The end result is a cleaner board.

 

[Filter guy]

So did you let that one in....lol


Like I said, I wouldn't bother with whomever tried to be the imposter.

 

[Filter guy]

Tim H ( And Rando):

It is time that some in here understand that filter copmpanies have 100's of medias to choose from.

It is also time to put two and two together. Filter companies say they will warranty a filter that is CATALOGED for the specific engine. Now why is that? I know it is a stretch for some to understnad that filters are built to specs. Engine companies are the ones who determine oil drain interval. Filter companies build their filters to what the engine companies requirements are.

I'm sorry you can not recognize the difference in filter medias when you cut a filter open. You have no idea what the difference is in dirt holding capacity between two "grades" of media.
Some think all one needs is a bigger filter and problem solved.

Well not necessarily. A filter company can build a 3" tall filter with a LOT more dirt holding capacity than a 5" filter. The 5" filter may be used on a 3,000 mile oil change interval engine and the 3" filter on one that has a 5,000 mile interval or in Europe a 10K kilometer oil change interval.

It is the perceptions of some and what they need to unlearn in this forum which is why I have posted some filter industry basics.

And because some of what I post flies in the face of "perceptions" by misinformed consumers, there are people who will not for the life of them evaluate the information I post and take on board that engine companies think the filter a vital part of their manufacturers warranty. And as such there are minimum requirements on how they want a filter to perform. Filter companies can build a filter to the minimum specs and filters that exceed, some times far exceed, the same spec. Hence the choices to consumers.


What filter companies can't control is sludge or abnormal contaminant in the oil, consumers going extended oil drain intervals on filters with a small safety factor built in, what consumers add to their oil, if they maintain their cooling system properly, If they maintain their air filtration correctly, or what happens with the oil pressure regulating valve and it over pressurizing the filter. So there are conditions that the filter will see based on ..the individual engine and what happens within that one engine.

If all one wants to do is "blame" the filter without knowing the data the conditions the filter was used under or as many factors as possible, be my guest. It doesn't bother me that you refuse to acknowledge the factors within the lube system that can cause failures. The sand head buried in..comes to mind..
--------------------------------

ZR2RANDO

Can you explain the relationship of the filter by-pass valve at engine start up as it relates oil flow which is regulated by the oil pump and the upper end knocking of engines?

What would happen if joe consumer had a totally plugged filter and started his car? There is insufficient flow through the media in this instance besides your assumption some medias have low flow and that is the reason for start up noises.

So i'm curious how you explain a low flow media, according to you, as being the cause of engine knocking as every engine has some form of by-pass for the filter.

A by-pass that opens on pressure diferential and you've rightly claimed there is little oil flowing through the media at start up. So the by-pass would open up and allow the appropriate flow to the engine.

So why would a low flow media, plugged media, or any media in-between cause the noise when the by-pass would open in that instance?

 

[Filter guy]

Rando:

Filter companies routinely print on their packaging..Meets or Exceeds Engine Manufacturers specs.

Now you being a bright lad would know your engine companies oil change interval which is the engine companies spec.

So you have your answer about how long the filter should last.

If you're bright enough to run the filter 50-100% beyond the "spec" then you're the one responsible for the conditions with which you ran the oil and filter, not the filter company.

Can you show me anywhere..I mean anywhere in writing or print..where ANY automotive engine company authorizes or recommends under ALL conditions that one can extend the drain interval by 25%, 50%, or longer?

When engine companies make THAT spec, then filter companies wil adjust how they build filters.

 

[Filter guy]

Rando:

Maybe you can tackle the question I posted to Winston.

I went 9,198 miles ( to be specific) between oil changes on a Super Tech clicker valve filter, when my owners manual claim 6,000 for normal driving. No problems with the filter and a "clean" oil analysis report. I went 53% longer than the "spec".

How can I do that and there be pictures of a "failed" clicker valve filter that went less mileage?

 

[windcatcher]

I gave up reading filter guys post a some time ago. Mike

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Filter Guy, I believe most here understand the points you make about OEM specs, media types, etc. What is annoying is your approach to alleged filter “failures”.

Anytime the OCI was over 3K miles, you tend to blame the user, and talk about sludge, and allude to possible previous neglect. You know that many vehicles today specify OCIs greater than 3K (sometimes even for severe service), and you also know that many owners don’t operate their vehicles under severe service conditions.

When the OCI is 4.5K miles you are quick to accuse the user of exceeding the OCI by up to 50%, neglecting maintenance, and sludging up their engine. You do this without considering the manufacturer’s recommended OCI interval, without knowing the vehicles maintenance history, and without knowing the user’s driving conditions.

In short you blame the user without knowing all the facts, but then turn around and criticize someone who blames the filter manufacturer because they may not have all the facts.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Filter Guy,
As usual you are trying to deflect a filters inadequacies on anything available besides that filters’ inadequacies. This is getting boring.
Bypass valves only open when the psid setting has been reached (that is if they are working at all- Fram bypasses and cheap Champ “clicker” valves seem to be the problem cases). If that bypass valve opens, flow at that stated psid is only maintained, if that psid then drops the valve closes. That means the pressure after the filter has already been reduced. The Fram bypass valves seem to allow inadequate flow to enable sufficient flow at the top end to avoid that characteristic sound that is the Fram trademark noise. The Fram filters always are short on media, the filter study done HERE AT BITOG even shows the Fram flowrates to be minimal compared to others…minimal flowrate per unit area with minimal area = minimal flowrate…simple.
Unlike you, some of us can actually see things that are right in front of us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-All I've done is offer my opinion based on what I had honestly experienced with Fram filters in my Nissan. It PROVED to me that the Fram filters designed to fit my Nissan where inferior to Purolator. Nobody can tell me that engine knocking at startup is a GOOD thing. It happened on a regular basis ANYTIME I used Fram. After YEARS of Fram usage I switched to Purolator Premium Plus. From that point on for another TWO YEARS, my Nissan NEVER knocked on startup again!

-Frams are notorious for causing startup valvetrain noise that will persist until the oil warms up and thins out enough to flow sufficiently to stop that noise. I had that characteristic symptom years ago until I learned about that here on BITOG. I changed brands of filters and the noise has never recurred. Any filter media has a certain flowrate per unit area”…….

-That startup valvetrain noise was directly caused by those Fram filters, and was due to insufficient oil flow. It may not have “killed’ my engine, but it did not do it any favors either. It had nothing to do with the length of the OCI, it was just causing increased wear and tear at every startup, even with new oil and filter.

-These filters caused problems starting the day they were installed- they did NOT just have problems due to extended OCI, or owner neglect, or color of the vehicle, or length of driveway, or type of shirt that driver was wearing or anything else. These filters caused problems that were remedied by switching filter brands-plain and simple.
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Maybe YOU should actually read some of this stuff here before you go off defending your beloved crap filters time after time again and again. These crap filters are having problems even when first installed. They are having problems even when used in OCI’s that ARE recommended by engine mfgrs.

Your question on how your particular filter handled the “9,198 miles ( to be specific)”
---All this staunch defense of the crappiest filters made...I've said this before...You really are a company man, good thing you don't work for an experimental drug company.---
Again you don’t read anything in here do you…maybe you were lucky, but then you don’t look at your own filters so you don’t really know either. You lease your car? You’ll likely not keep it 10-15 years like some of us do.
You don’t understand the following comparisons it seems…
--Look how many people didn't die when they rode in a car without a seatbelt. The point is, some did die.
--I think it's also like the smoking and cancer thing.....
--And the drinking and driving thing
--And the crossing a busy road thing

Guess you think that if that first smoke don’t kill you then there is nothing wrong with smoking for years huh????

You just insist on blabbering on and on about how anybody who has filter problems must be running the filter way beyond any reasonable expectation of spec’d service interval. You seem to be living in some la la land out there where Frams and cheap Champs actually function like their MARKETING folks like to brag about. You need to get a grip on things.

I think you are actually doing all this jibberish just to stir up the mud and confuse all those who actually are trying to learn about this stuff

Mike, good point, I need to join the rest of the folks that are doing just that…

 

[wavinwayne]

 

[Phoenix]

Gosh, this seems like a case of, don’t do as I do, do as I say.

Logic dictates that this person has disproved his own position about extended service of filters being the cause of failures, by his own empirical admission.

I personally have had filter knock (marbles rattling in a can sound) from day one of being installed, using certain filters.
I have had no filter knock using other filters.
All were speced for my vehicle.
What is so hard to grasp about that?

Pretzel logic is an expression of deniability.

 

[Winston]

quote:

---

I went 9,198 miles ( to be specific) between oil changes on a Super Tech clicker valve filter, when my owners manual claim 6,000 for normal driving. No problems with the filter and a "clean" oil analysis report. I went 53% longer than the "spec".

---

Spoken like a true salesman. As you well know. UOA will not tell you if your filter has "failed". That is what sales is all about. Attaching irrelevant technical data to a product for marketing. I can't tell if you are spewing misinformation on purpose. Or that you really believe what you are saying?

I provided the relevant data in regards to doubleclutch's failed Fram filter. Why don't you post the pics of your cut up supertech filter? Oh, thats right, you had "no problems" (a technical term) so why cut up the filter.

 

[sjlee]

quote:

---

Originally posted by andrews:
Ray H,
I just did some research buddy. Fram doesn't make OEM filters for Honda. They are made by a company called Toyo Riki Manufacturing.
Just to set the record straight.

---

Toyo makes the OEM Honda filters overseas. In North America, they are Frams.

 

[Propflux01]

Filter Guy:

you have still not addressed my questions on my last posting. We are not talking about people who are 'exceeding' thier manufacturers recommended specs, we are talking about failuers within these manufacturers OCI specs.
What am I missing here? Anyone?

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

In North America, they are Frams.

---

Located in Findlay, Ohio, Filtech Inc. was established in 1989 by Toyo Roki Manufacturing Co. LTD. Filtech specializes in serving the automotive industry with state-of-the-art filtration component parts and systems, such as, air cleaners, oil filters, automatic transmission filter strainers, and charcoal canisters. Filtech USA

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sjlee:

quote:

---

Originally posted by andrews:
Ray H,
I just did some research buddy. Fram doesn't make OEM filters for Honda. They are made by a company called Toyo Riki Manufacturing.
Just to set the record straight.

---

Toyo makes the OEM Honda filters overseas. In North America, they are Frams.

---

Honda's filter suppliers in Japan include Toyo Roki and Denso. Their US suppliers are Fram and Filtech (owned by Toyo Roki). Back when I was buying filters for my Integra, I'd occasionally ask if the dealer had any of the Toyo Roki filters in stock.

I bought bunch of Subaru OEM filters for my WRX. They're made in Japan by a company called "Tokyo Roki". Is that confusing enough?

 

[Filter guy]

Ho ho ho..

Brian: I am asking for more information on the pictures with regards to doubleclutch and his Fram problems. What engine, what is his OEM recommended oil change, what type of oil..etc.
I assumed his oil change interval based on his driving habits is 3,000 miles. I'm willing to be shot down with facts. Not more suppositions. Or guess work based on just pictures and a mileage figure alone.

Rando/winston:

I am asking for information on doubleclutch's problems.

I gave both of you the opportunity to assess my situation when I went 9,000 miles on a Super Tech. And neither of you asked me for more information regarding my specifics.

Rando for the record my last Taurus was a 1996 and i went 135,658 miles before trading it in. I used this car as my company car besides being a personal vehicle, the same as my current car.

This particular Taurus I bought..never leased a personal vehicle...used. It had 7313 miles on it.


So rather than come up with questions about how my vehicle was used, you go off again on the same..I don't need to know more routine.

I happen to be one of those idiots who logs in every gas purchase to record mileage. have done for the last few cars i've owned. And log in all the oil changes. Use oil analysis religiously. not once in awhile. I document everything and keep every reciept of any work done to the car. Tires. Rotation,brakes, etc..

So in my particular case, as you've never asked;
Mileage on the car after the 9,198 miles between oil changes--18,783.

Now would it make a difference to you if I had 118,783 on the car in the scheme of things? Apparently not. Number of miles on the engine makes no difference as to the possibility of sludge in the oil or other factors such as water or coolant being present.

I had used Mobil 1 oil. Would it make a difference if I just had used basic Shell oil at .69 a quart? Apparently not. All oils are supposed to be able to go extended drain intervals just the same. And I shouldn't concern myself with the brand or type of oil i use. They're all the same and perform equally well under every condition.


I also know that, because I checked my log books for expense purposes, i drove 7359 miles worth of on-highway type mileage. I as drove around the southwest making sales calls. The total miles of 9198-7359= 1839 ( severe driving) Now I could probably factor in 10% of my sales calls driving as being "severe". So that would mean approximately 2575 "severe" and 6623 "normal" driving during that oil change. Or 72% of my miles being Normal and 18% being Severe during the total oil change.

But none of that should make any difference to you because you never asked, nor cared. My mileage was irrelivent to your rant about filters. How I drove during that time was irrelivant. What type of oil I used wasn't even an issue.

As for oil analysis not being a usefull "predictive" tool..to each their own. But as my background is more trucking related, I dare you to tell fleets they don't need oil analysis...lol

And for the record I have offered to lubeowner the opportunity to cut open the filter off my car ( which is an e-core currently). And as per other opportunities, he has not responded that he would welcome such. That way forumites have an "independant" verification source.I'm not worried about my filter as I keep such good records and do continual oil analysis. I've never had any "poor" report other than it's time to change the air filter.

----------------------------------------------

As a different exercise for those who like pictures and can explain things.....

Do you ever watch NASCAR, IRL, or CART?

Explain this to me, i'll use Nascar as an example but it happens in all three racing series.

Scenario:

43 cars start the race. A car gets in the marbles and causes a 3 car wreck. Those three cars need major work. That leave 40 cars on the track. All 40 cars go in for fuel and 4 tires. They all come out and line up 2 X 2 behind the pace car. They al have the same amount of warmup laps. The pace car pulls off and as they "go green" a car spins and collects a few more cars.

The announcers, crew chief, and driver all say it was "cold tires" that caused the accident.

Now explain to me why that car does not sue the tire company for a mismanufactured or defective tire(s)?

None of the other cars around him spun on "cold tires". So why did the driver of car XX?

All tires in the race are produced by one tire company and from the exact same compound during the same production run.

You've seen the tv pictures. They even replay them..

So why doesn't car number XX claim a defect? Why would just his/her car go spinning when the others in front, beside, and behind didn't?

 

[Filter guy]

Rando:

This is getting boring.
Bypass valves only open when the psid setting has been reached (that is if they are working at all- Fram bypasses and cheap Champ “clicker” valves seem to be the problem cases). If that bypass valve opens, flow at that stated psid is only maintained, if that psid then drops the valve closes. That means the pressure after the filter has already been reduced.
........................

You right this is getting boring. On the one hand you understand that it is the pressure differential across the element that opens up the by-pss valve. So far we are in agreement.

" If that bypass valve opens, flow at that stated psid is only maintained, if that psid then drops the valve closes. That means the pressure after the filter has already been reduced."

This part is cack though. Maybe you just didn't explain it well enough but I read it as there is always a significant loss of pressure after the filter. Enough to cause engine knock ( with a correctly functioning valve. leaving your personal experiences with Fram aside or anti Champ bias)


The engine OEM's know at what minimum oil flow level they need to lubricate the engine so that there is no engine knock at start up or at any other time.

If, as an example, the relief valve opens at 8PSID..you will always get 32 psi worth of flow if the incoming flow is 40psi. At 32.1PSI flow the valve hasn't opened. At 32 it does. This is the OEM minimum spec to maintain enough flow so there is no knock.

There is even a safety factor involved whereby one might be able to use a 16PSID valve and there still may not be any engine knock. Which would mean at 40psi flow , downstream you would have 24PSI flow with a correct valve opening.

I can't wait until you find out that one OEM who uses the 8psid valve goes to 16 PSID rated valve and they say it's good enough for their previous engines as well. Look for it, it may happen sooner than you think.

which may just throw a monkey wrench into the....just at what flow rate does engine knock happen debate. Or just how bad would your by-pass valve need to be to get an engine knock anyway.


--------------------------------

As for Champ, whether you buy Warner, Super Tech, Valvoline, Mighty, VW, Ford OEM or any of their private branded filters, the same equipment makes the same valve for all brands at the appropriate valve setting per part number. There is no differential of the by-pass valves between brands. The only exception is Mobil 1 and K&N which uses a similar machine but because of the thicker metal endcaps can't be run on the "standard" machines.

For your beloved Fram..

..It is my experience they purchase a lot of their relief valves. Because they are a drop in style.

Champs are made in-house because they make their own valves and they are intergrated into the backplate or endcap assembly. So they have all their own equipment to reduce costs. Another favorite subject for these forums..lol