Fram filters really bad?

Status
Not open for further replies.
quote:

Originally posted by leel:
I just changed the oil in my wifes car(98 mazda 626 2.0 198k), it had a tg7317 on it and the adbv was not sealing on it. This is the only fram I have used on this car and likely will be the last.The media in this filter looked ok but it also had it hanging out of the center tube like the pic in this thread. this filter had less than 3k miles on it.This was also the 3rd filter in a 8k oci using m1ep 10w30. The 1st two filters in this oci were st6607 the adbv were great on those, but there was 1 torn pleat where it was bonded to the metal in the first st6607. how ever it did have around 4500 miles on it and there is not as much filtering media in st6607 as there is in gl14612(this filter was used in previous oil change, there were no problems with this filter,I also put a new one on for the next oci).

These are the only filters I have cut open on this car the gl14612 looked like far better quality filter.

These were also the last 4 filters on this car.

I only started doing this since I found this site in January. Seems strange that 2 of the 4 filters I checked have had something wrong with them.( and happen to be the same brands others have had trouble with)

I will continue checking the filters when I take them off. I looking for over 300k out this ride and hope to get there.


By the way recomended oci(and filter) for this car is........ severe 5000 miles....... normal is 7500 miles........


leel,

Certainly can't argue with your empirical evidence. What you saw, you saw, and with filters running reasonable intervals. When I DID use Frams, never saw anything unusual but then I did not cut them open. I stick by Filter Guy's comments, but I also accept yours and experiences like this are the reason I won't take a chance on Frams, at least the lower priced ones or $1.99 Castrol or Pennzoil or QS or....(even though I have seen some of THESE that looked really well made).
 
In the Volvo world the main rap on Fram vs. OEM Mann is:

1) Less filter media area (observed only, no metrics on actual detrimental effects on performance)
2) Bad/non-functional ADBV (many have had lots of rattling starts with Fram that go away with Mann)

Usually if you shop a bit you can get a case of 10 Mann filters for low $30 something. So why bother with Fram, even if the rap is not 100% deserved?
 
when i was in the miltary all we had were fram filters at the big bx. but then again we didnt care as we were drivng the locals vehicles that couldnt pass inspection. saw my fail share of failed filters. the same with spark plugs. all we could get were champions. the heiress to champions boards their horse next to mine. when i let it slip on what i thought of their product man oh man did i get an ear full. mmmm my views still stand.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Filter Guy.:
I always ask for data that most people don't keep track of so I can stalemate any discussion.

I don't know who this is but it isn't me.

Our member numbers are different for one. And this name has a . at the end of it.

I find it funny that someone with a wise crack like this won't use their real forum name.

Typical of someone not confident in their own position that they have to hide somehow.

Clever..real clever...But stupid none-the-less.
 
quote:

Originally posted by T-Keith:
I didn't really read your post, but skimming it I cought one problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

I also know Fram buys filters from Fleetguard for some Cummins applications. It would not surprise me that Fram "could" switch to a purchased filter to solve the Cummins diesel pick up truck problem if they so choose.


Perhaps your thinking of filters for over the road trucks? Fram's filter for the Cummins 5.9 did have problems, but they fixed it with another Fram made filter. You can look in the holes and see it is a Fram plain as day.

-T


What, you didn't read my whole post..i'm hurt..
wink.gif


Notice I did say they "could" purchase a Fleetguard to solve their problem. As most filter companies catalog 2,000+ part numbers I certainly don't know the construction of everyone of them.

However, Fram was my account on behalf of Champ for about two years and what the main products that they bought at that time was automotive. Probably 80/20 v heavy duty from Champ.

So if Fram did redesign their Cummins 5.9 filter, as I said that wouldn't have surprised me either. Because one things for sure, they weren't going to not offer a part number that wouldn't met spec. Hence, stopping the service bulletin would have been a top priority.
--------------------------------

pscholte


Well i'm glad someone reads my entire post. I don't use Fram oil filters either..
wink.gif


But maybe, just maybe, some people would consider OEM Spec v expectency. What does the OEM expect and what some in here expect seemingly are two different things.

And that's the beauty of aftermarket filters. Consumers can find better alternatives. Even within a specific filter companies offerings. As I said before most filter companies offer good, better, best.


I'm certainly not saying people won't find some faults with Fram but it makes a mockery of those who have religiously used Fram for years..maybe have 2-300,000+ miles on their engines and never had engine problems related to the filter. Fram has their testimonials, too.
wink.gif
 
I didn't really read your post, but skimming it I cought one problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

I also know Fram buys filters from Fleetguard for some Cummins applications. It would not surprise me that Fram "could" switch to a purchased filter to solve the Cummins diesel pick up truck problem if they so choose.


Perhaps your thinking of filters for over the road trucks? Fram's filter for the Cummins 5.9 did have problems, but they fixed it with another Fram made filter. You can look in the holes and see it is a Fram plain as day.

-T
 
quote:

I don't know who this is but it isn't me.

Our member numbers are different for one. And this name has a . at the end of it.

I find it funny that someone with a wise crack like this won't use their real forum name.

Typical of someone not confident in their own position that they have to hide somehow.

Clever..real clever...But stupid none-the-less.

What's odd, Mel, is that I approved this guy. I even PM'd "you" asking what was up with your "re-upping". I was approving so many members ..I didn't catch the "." on the end. Everything else fit (TEX, Sales, etc.)

Boy ...I sure feel like a fool
pat.gif
I feel like a security guard that holds the door open for the guy stealing the canoe out of K-Mart.
frown.gif
 
Filter Guy,

Hear hear...excellent exposition!

I for one will NOT use Frams; that being said, your points are well made and need to be HEARD...you know, like in HEARD, by everyone of us on this board. Do you have biases when you post?...sure...but don't we all...the question is, does your post have logic? Yes, indeed it does. We have all been SO foolish to expect bullet proof performance from filters that are sometimes on sale for $1.99. If they genuninely meet specs, then what's the beef...unless the beef is with the specs themselves. Excepting those items which command a high valuation based TOO MUCH on brand name, you get what you pay for. Don't put a $1.99 filter on your 400 hp 7500 rpm engine and expect it to go forever. Filter guy, tell us, to get a filter that performs like many of us think they should (consistent over time of use and from filter to filter, with a solid performance reserve) what should we expect to pay? Guys and gals, once he tells us, don't expect a $15 performance out of a $1.99 filter. I don't mean to be pedantic but we have got to get real.

PS I think this ties in directly too to the thread on "I'm tired of everyone saying their driving is severe." Maybe the state of these filters are a reflection of just how severe the conditions are in some of our engines...and when you are dealing with severe conditions you need to be concerned about the quality of the oil AND the filter and be sensitive to realistic change intervals based on how YOU drive and in what conditions.

[ June 05, 2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Filter Guy.:
I always ask for data that most people don't keep track of so I can stalemate any discussion.

Took Logic at Oxford did you?
grin.gif


PS I modified my previous post a bit to reflect more of your post.
 
No problem Gary. I do have a life and had a busy weekend..
grin.gif


I do know on other forums that they have some real computer nerds who can look at someones isp and determine who is registering twice.

But in this case it isn't worth the bother. It's like hiding behind your mothers skirt when a person does this. I feel more sorry for them than anything else.
 
offtopic.gif


I hadn't noticed this before, but apparently you can no longer browse these forums without logging in. I don't know if that is intentional. I hadn't seen any announcement about it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:
offtopic.gif


I hadn't noticed this before, but apparently you can no longer browse these forums without logging in. I don't know if that is intentional. I hadn't seen any announcement about it.


That happens on and off. I don't know if it's unintentional or if there are scheduled times where one has to log on just to browse.
 
We do that about one week-end a month. Once last month and once this month. Trying to get the lurkers to join in the discussions.
 
We ran a one week session that required registration to view the board. This was simply because guest typically outnumbered the registered members. Now most of the guests are just choosing to be "invisible". The last "lock out" occured this last weekend ..and may be limited to those times since many can't log on from work..etc...etc..

The board must sustain growth and this is an attempt ot bring those lurkers into the fold, so to speak. We've got some very stable and excellent contributors here ..but without new blood ..we're going to eventually go nowhere. One individual, ..or 20-30, just run out of physical time to explore new ground. This growth will get the attention of more people (as we've seen in the less than 3 years I've been here) ..and on it goes. There is no downside to this action except occasional linked threads on other boards. If we're quoted to that extent that these linked threads are viewed by so many ..that it creates an inconvenience ...then these people surely have enough interest to sign up as a member.
dunno.gif
 
Filter guy. You need to respond to the the issues in the thread. The filter I posted had failed. I also posted the OCI. It should not have failed in these circumstances.

The other point I wanted to make is that, statistically, when a filter doesnt fail it means almost nothing. Like when the original poster asked us to explain why people can go 150,000 miles using Frams. My response is the same reason people don't die when they do not put their seatbelt on. One the other hand, when someone dies and they are not wearing their seatbelt, that is a statistically significant event. Especially if it can be determined if a seatbelt would have saved him/her. So, in Frams case we have seen filters that failed.

Thus, I recommend that everyone wear their seatbelt, and don't buy Fram.
 
I have been doing my own OCI's on my vehicles for 37 years now. I used Fram's for the first 34 years. I never cut open a used filter, but I examined them carefully after the used oil was drained out. No damaged center tube. No filter media in center tube holes.

I changed because of the ADBV problems I had on my vehicles. My failure was mis-diagnosing the start-up top end noise as oil related, instead of ADBV related. Once I determined it was ADBV related, I stopped using Fram, and I stopped having start-up top end noise. Later, I checked out web sites on filters, and learned why the Fram performed like it did.

Pscholte is correct
worshippy.gif


Don't expect $15 oil filter performance from a $3 filter. I always spent money on good oil, I should have also spent money on a good filter
blush.gif
 
Forgive me if this has already been discussed:

If you look at Fram's wesite, they actually have a pictue that shows all the internals of their Tough Guard filter, including the cardboard endcaps. Here it is:

 -


Except for the carboard end caps, it doesn't look too bad. It has synthetic glass and cellulose media & a silicone ADBV. I think these go for around $7 at WallyWorld.

I wonder if the silicone ADBV in the Tough Guard filter would eliminate the cold start rattle that so many have experienced when using Fram filters.

[ June 06, 2005, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: wavinwayne ]
 
Fram also has this little clip of their X2 filter on their website. I put this here because a lot of questions are posted about this particular filter.
 -
 
quote:

Originally posted by Winston:

quote:

Show me where the endcaps failed to hold a seal with the filtration media. Your point about buckling is an entirely different issue, but even that never resulted in unfiltered oil passing through the pleating, did it?

Your question was regarding the suitability of cardboard for endcaps. These photos showed endcaps that contributed to the buckling of the media. The buckling of the media contributed to bits of media blowing throught center tube (possibly flowing through the oil galleys). Therefore, Frams cardboard endcaps are not suitable for use in an oil filter.


Winston: is this what you are refering to?

I suggest you ask Fram, why for 20 years or so they have continuously used cardboard endcaps and not come to the same conclusion you have?

You take a gander at some pictures that were used on a vehicle for 4,500 miles and use your deductive powers to suss out Fram endcaps are terrible and that's why the pleats look like they do. Yet Fram has had this design for at least 20 years that I know of. How many of those do you think they've sold in 20 years or so?

But that still wouldn't be good enough for you because you've seen pictures.

There is no doubt about the evidence. The pictures are what they are. The mileage on the filters may be near 50% longer than the drain interval. I've asked before..name me one product you buy where you expect to use it 50% beyond it's service life. ( When you buy 40,000 miles Goodyears or Firestones..do you expect to get 60,000 miles out of them?)

There are a number of factors you've not told us about this filter or if doubleclutch ever did either as it was his filter:

1: What type of oil was used? And was the same oil used in the previous oil change?
2: Was oil analysis used, and if so what was the report. Was there any water or coolant present per the analysis?
3: Was any oil additive or cleaner used?
4: What was in the bottom of the can when the filter was cut open?
5: Total miles on the vehicle?

What I see is an over extended drain interval where the oil may also had a problem which contributes to the filter looking like it does. I also do not see any particular problem whereby the pleats have ruptured which would allow contaminant downstream.

You can speculate all you want on why the pleats are not straight but if they hold together, they have still done their job.

Anyone who wants to post some pictures needs to give as much data as possible. When it is "your" car, you should know what you've done with your oil changes. Don't you agree?

For instance:
Changing brands of oil when you've primarily used one particular brand to another ( Say Castrol to Valvoline) can impact the filter. One oil brand has a particular detergent package. You engine develops a pattern to that detergent package. When you switch to another brand of oil, then the new detergent package will clean your engine in ways your long time previous oil didn't. Sometines the filter can handle the change. Other times the filter can be very dirty when removed.

If one uses some engine cleaner product, you have to expect the filter will plug quicker. Which is why cleaner products say just use their stuff for a limited mileage. Again, less expensive filters might have a problem if they become overloaded or the pressure relief valve at the oil pump gets stuck and over pressurizes the oil filter.

There are so many nuances that filter companies have data on that to post some of them in here, some people would take that as "excuses" or worse. But engine companies and filter companies have reams of information about how and why filters have problems.

Which is why the more data one posts, the more things can be eliminated as probable causes.

Post a picture with no or limited information and speculate all one wants.

I would await your explaination of my oil analysis on a Super Tech clicker valve filter which lasted 9,000 miles and had no problem and a "clean" oil analysis v the pictures posted previously of a clicker valve filter with pleat problems which "apparently" didn't go 9,000 miles.? I guess I was just "lucky"...

It's not the filter...it's the conditions the filter was subject to. Same with the Fram...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top