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#3382263 - 05/27/14 03:41 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
The discussion here is focused on Manual Transmission Lubricants for Automobile and Light Truck applications.
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#3394417 - 06/10/14 10:11 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
benjy Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 203
Loc: pa
in my O2J VW 5 spd 2001 jetta i switched to Amsoil series 2000 prolly about 2005. after about 50,000 shifting became poor, could barely get into 5th gear 90 some thousand miles. trannys were known for syncro issues, i changed to MT-90 and shifting got better + better after 2,000 miles worked decent until i ripped the teeth off 5th gear, 30,000 later. got it rebuilt and shifted well until i traded at almost 200,000 miles still with MT-90. traded on a 37,000 mile TT O6M 6 speed, shifting a little rough i put MT-90 in it, shifts great, changed all the fluids due to age! i surely believe in MT-90

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#3486726 - 09/18/14 09:58 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Rand Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 8092
Loc: Barberton,Ohio
Since this whole topic is an epic resurrection of oldness.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and keep it going.

Most of the above doesn't apply to any awd subaru and some porche MT's as they are a transaxle and share the gear oil with hypoid gears.

as such they require a gl-5 which can cause poor shifting if you choose badly.


Some gear oils are dual rated gl-4 and gl-5 but almost always they will cause decreased shift performance if gl-5 isn't required.


Finally, its 2014 and some car manufacturers are going somewhat exotic. Many seem to have some OEM brew fluid that's 30$/qt. Sometimes a different one for different car models in their lineup.

Subaru starting in 2014 with their revised Forester MT
(6th gear added to older 5mt design IIRC)

Factory fills with Subaru Extra MT which is a 75w80 gl-5 MT oil.


Edited by Rand (09/18/14 10:00 PM)
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#3487586 - 09/19/14 04:53 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Rand]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Originally Posted By: Rand
Since this whole topic is an epic resurrection of oldness.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and keep it going.

Most of the above doesn't apply to any awd subaru and some porche MT's as they are a transaxle and share the gear oil with hypoid gears.


Subaru starting in 2014 with their revised Forester MT
(6th gear added to older 5mt design IIRC)

Factory fills with Subaru Extra MT which is a 75w80 gl-5 MT oil.


Yep, I believe you are referring to this oil

Quote:
H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1.[ Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF



or this oil

Quote:
J. The next higher viscosity MTLs in the 14-15 cSt (75W90) range would be:

1. Amsoil MTG

2. Redline MT-90

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90

5. Ford XT-75W90-QGT (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Ford MOTORCRAFT® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS


All of these oils are synchromesh oils with either a GL-4 or GL-5 protecion rating.

Those synchromesh fluids with GL-5 protection ratings are normally used for tansaxles or driveline systems in which the manual transmission shares a "common" sump with the hypoid differential.

Been discussed in many threads.


Edited by MolaKule (09/19/14 05:00 PM)
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#3488523 - 09/20/14 02:40 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Some of The Differences between MTLs and ATFs:

The commercial additive suppliers have validated the PI packages for GL-4 service when used with specific base oils.

The important thing to consider here is differences between the PI packages and base oils for ATF's versus dedicated MTLs.

The PI package and base oil for ATF's start out with very low (some may say, "very thin") viscosity oils and use additive components for wet clutch applications. The PI package for an ATF has less than 18% of the Anti-Wear (AW) chemistry found in MTLs.

The PI package and base oil for MTL's start out with higher viscosity base oils, use additive components targeted for synchronizer assembly applications, and have about 5.5 times more AW chemistry than do ATFs.


Edited by MolaKule (09/20/14 02:41 PM)
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#3493031 - 09/25/14 10:40 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
I have an 05 dodge 1500 with the 3.7 and getrag 238 six speed. It's spec is ap4 which is atf+4. My question is, can I mix synchromesh with atf+4 to achieve better wear protection and hopefully better performance? Thanks.

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#3493100 - 09/25/14 11:39 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Wrought_Man]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Originally Posted By: Wrought_Man
I have an 05 dodge 1500 with the 3.7 and getrag 238 six speed. It's spec is ap4 which is atf+4. My question is, can I mix synchromesh with atf+4 to achieve better wear protection and hopefully better performance? Thanks.


You can, but synthetic fluids such as Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 Gear Oil or Amsoil MTF would be better choices in my opinion.
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#3493217 - 09/25/14 01:14 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
From my research atf+4 and gm synchromesh are both synthetic products. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Big plus for me is that they are very easily obtainable at most parts stores whereas redline etc you pretty much have to mail order and is pretty high priced compared to the others I mentioned.

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#3493335 - 09/25/14 03:43 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Pennzoil Synchromesh and ATF+4 are both blends of conventional (mineral) oils (majority) and some synthetic components (minority).

Another option is the Valvoline MTF Synchromesh (readily available as well) and AT+4.

I would use 75% MTF Synchromesh and 25% ATF+4. This shoould bring the viscosity up to about 8.7 cSt which is about halfway between the ATF and MTF viscosity. This will also get you the benefit of more AW and proper friction modification additives.


Edited by MolaKule (09/25/14 03:44 PM)
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#3494474 - 09/26/14 05:47 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
I had already did a custom blend before I saw your recommendation of 75% mtf and 25% atf+4. So my mix was 1 qt syncromesh and 1.5 qt atf+4. Not sure what I drained out but it was pretty dark and smelled bad. On the first test drive it shifted better. I will go with the mtf next time but didn't see it on the shelf where I got the synchromesh. Thank you for your help!

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#3553230 - 12/02/14 12:46 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
This was posted in another thread but also posted here since GL-X ratings with respect to gearing is often misunderstood.

The GL-X rating defines the protection level for gearing, whether it be transmissions, TC's, or differentials.

A GL-5 rating is for highly-loaded gears (high tooth contact forces), such as for hypoid differentials, and contains high levels of primary and secondary Extreme Pressure (EP) additives such as Sulfur-Phosphorus chemistry. The viscosity of said GL-5 gear lubes is usually higher than for manual transmission lubes. For example, a 75W90 GL-5 gear lube has a viscosity of 18.5 cSt@100C, whereas a GL-4 protection rated 75W90 Manual Transmission lubricant would have a viscosity of 14.0 cSt@100C. This difference in viscosity can have a major impact for Manual Transmission shifting performance in terms of cold weather shifter fork movement.

A GL-4 rating is for lower loaded gearing such as for manual transmissions (MT) and Transfer cases (TCs) in light trucks and cars. It contains mostly an Anti-Wear additive (AW) in the form of ZDDP or an equivalent anti-wear package. It does not contain Extreme Pressure (EP) additives. Furthermore, the chemistry for MT's contain specialized friction modifiers for the synchronizer assemblies.

The GL-4 Performance Improvement package (additive package) has been tested by the additive suppliers to perform to GL-4 protection levels using modern testing machines.

For manual transmissions that share the same sump with hypoid differentials, such as the Subaru drivelines, a special GL-5 lubricant is used which has the synchromesh friction modifier. But this is an exception.


Quote:
:
I would certainly like to know the answer to this question, "can GL-5 oil be used where GL-4 is specified?"



So the answer is, NO, not for Manual Transmissions.


Edited by MolaKule (12/02/14 12:56 PM)
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#3553600 - 12/02/14 05:32 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 5356
Loc: New York
Hi Molacule and everybody else:

I just bought a new 2014 Ford Focus 5 speed M/T last month.

First question....Do you believe in changing the FF early due to wear-in debris and if so what is a good mileage for this change out?

The fluid spec'd in the OM is BOT350-M3 / WSS-M2C200-D2 aka 'Motorcraft Full Synthetic Dual Clutch Manual Transmission Fluid'.

The A/T version specs XT-11-QDC aka 'Motorcraft Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid'

When I 'Google' BOT350-M3 I see that I can buy a Genuine Volvo version of this spec fluid considerably cheaper than Ford's.

Is the Volvo stuff good for the Ford? Are there any alternatives I could consider?

Thanks

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#3553767 - 12/02/14 08:25 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Quote:
First question....Do you believe in changing the FF early due to wear-in debris and if so what is a good mileage for this change out?


My own preference is to change it out within 5,000 miles to rid itself of wear-in debris, storage and manufacturing particles.

The Ford FML-XT-11-QDC fluid is low viscosity fluid which has a viscosty similar to DexronVI, but has the additive package of a GL-4 synchromesh type fluid.

Quote:
A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


As far as the Volvo fluid, who knows. The only way to know for sure is to have a VOA done on both fluids to see if they are similar.

For these kinds of questions, this Forum would be more appropriate:

Trasmission et al Forum




Edited by MolaKule (12/02/14 08:37 PM)
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#3554050 - 12/03/14 07:51 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 5356
Loc: New York
I know that the Castrol Syntrans FE 75W meets the BOT-350-M3 spec but I have no idea where to buy it. The Mopar fluid sold for the Fiat 500 also meets the spec.

I'll probably just buy the Ford stuff and change out the FF between 5 and 7K. (I thought it was a good idea and you confirmed it).

Thanks

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#3557091 - 12/05/14 09:27 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14767
Loc: Iowegia
Here is an updated list of dedicated GL-4 MTL's, Updated 12/5/2014:

A. These MTL fluids are closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.xcSt@100C (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) and SAE 70W to 75W or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC

5. Volvo Manual Transmission Fluid (6.4 cSt) [Recommended for: type M65 5-speed with 6-cyl. engine, M66, MTX75 and MMT6 and of the type M56, M58 and M59 from and including model year 1996. Meets Ford specification WSSM2C200-D2]


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt@100C versions (About the same viscosity as a the original DexronIII/Merc)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. Valvoline MTF Part Number 811095 9.2 cSt

G. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt


H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt (SAE 75W80) range:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF


I. The next higher viscosity MTL would be an SAE 75W85:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt


J. The next higher viscosity MTLs in the 14-15 cSt ( SAE 75W90) range would be:

1. Amsoil MTG

2. Redline MT-90

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90

5. Ford XT-75W90-QGT (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Ford MOTORCRAFT® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS


Edited by MolaKule (12/05/14 09:40 PM)
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