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#3381979 - 05/27/14 07:37 AM tried archoil
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
i have a 2008 subaru tribeca and in an effort to increase mileage (19.1 mpg) i put in archoil 9100
it has been about 1000 miles and fuel mileage is now 19.3 mpg

this is not scientific

driving conditions have remained the same

engine seems smoother but that does not mean much

not sure if i would buy it again

just my thoughts

Steve

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#3381985 - 05/27/14 07:50 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 3055
Loc: FL, USA
Im dont think that would even pay for the cost of the Archoil. Basically over a full tank of gas you eeked out an additional 3.4 miles.


Edited by gregk24 (05/27/14 07:54 AM)
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord LX 2.4 i-vtec 125K
Mobil 1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra 7317

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 118K
Mobil 1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra 3387

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#3381986 - 05/27/14 07:54 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Olas Offline


Registered: 12/11/13
Posts: 654
Loc: Manchester, England
AR9100 is a 'nanoborate' (their words, not mine) friction modifier to add to your oil.

Their AR6200 is a fuel additive marketed as an MPG improver
_________________________
1982 VW Scirocco
1457cc
98 bhp
1900 lbs
71000 miles
44mpg
Weber/Millers/Mahle/ITG/Leda/Michelin/Brembo/Pagid/Pioneer

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#3382027 - 05/27/14 09:07 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
You got that right. Besides not being "scientific", it's not even remotely provable.

You think that in real-world driving over one tank of fuel you can measure a 1% increase in mileage, and attribute that to an additive?

And like Olas pointed out, either you are mistaken on what you added, or you added the wrong thing to your gas.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
i have a 2008 subaru tribeca and in an effort to increase mileage (19.1 mpg) i put in archoil 9100
it has been about 1000 miles and fuel mileage is now 19.3 mpg

this is not scientific

driving conditions have remained the same

engine seems smoother but that does not mean much

not sure if i would buy it again

just my thoughts

Steve
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3382114 - 05/27/14 11:19 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12961
Loc: Irvine, CA
I don't know how much is a bottle of Archoil and so far there isn't many positive reviews. Liqui Moly MoS2 has many more positive reviews and costs less than $6-7 at NAPA.

I tried 1/2 bottle MoS2 in my E430 last oil change about 250 miles ago, so far the trip computer shows an improvement from 28.5-29.5 MPG to 20.5 MPG with same average speed of 29 MPH. The most MPG improvement was the first 2-3 miles driving of the day. The engine seems a little quieter, but it's possible my mind playing trick.

For less than $5 half bottle MoS2, the cost of experience is cheap enough such that if it didn't do any good I didn't loose too much.

My plan is 1/2 oz per quart MoS2 first treatment in all cars and 1/4 oz per quart maintenance at every oil change after that.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#3382128 - 05/27/14 11:29 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Olas]
NMBurb02 Offline


Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 1362
Loc: Crowntown, CA
Originally Posted By: Olas
AR9100 is a 'nanoborate' (their words, not mine) friction modifier to add to your oil.

Their AR6200 is a fuel additive marketed as an MPG improver

Well, this is the "Oil Additives" forum.
_________________________
2002 Chevy Suburban 1500, G-Oil 5W-30, Napa Gold FIL 4805
2006 Pontiac Grand Prix GT, Valvoline ML NG 10W-30 +MMO, Puro PureOne PL10111

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#3382153 - 05/27/14 12:01 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
RF Overlord Offline


Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 3176
Loc: Cape Cod, MA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And like Olas pointed out, either you are mistaken on what you added, or you added the wrong thing to your gas.
Where does the OP say he added it to his gas?
_________________________
Supercharged '03 Mercury Marauder - Trilogy Motorsports #61
PP 5W-30 / MC FL820S

Y2K Grand Marquis GS - daily driver
MC 5W-20 / MC FL820S

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#3382176 - 05/27/14 12:55 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: RF Overlord]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
You are correct, he doesn't. I read into it something that wasn't there. My mistake.

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And like Olas pointed out, either you are mistaken on what you added, or you added the wrong thing to your gas.
Where does the OP say he added it to his gas?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3382180 - 05/27/14 12:59 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3884
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You are correct, he doesn't. I read into it something that wasn't there. My mistake.



An archoil thread tends to do that to people around here.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 115k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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#3382223 - 05/27/14 02:18 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: badtlc]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You are correct, he doesn't. I read into it something that wasn't there. My mistake.



An archoil thread tends to do that to people around here.




Ha.


I've never used the stuff so I'm not going to trash it however it costs more than mos2 and in my experience mos2 works as advertised therefore I'm not interested in anything else.

In a market where most products are indeed snake oil I'm not buying twice.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3382254 - 05/27/14 03:27 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: badtlc]
GatorJ Offline


Registered: 07/24/03
Posts: 177
Loc: Tampa
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You are correct, he doesn't. I read into it something that wasn't there. My mistake.



An archoil thread tends to do that to people around here.


Yep, reminds me of a line from Steve Martin's "Grandmother's Song"

"Criticize things you don't know about"

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#3382259 - 05/27/14 03:37 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: GatorJ]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Well I did say I misunderstood and read into his statement. But the part about being able to measure (and attribute to Archoil) a 1% MPG increase, that I do know about. What do you think about that claim?

Originally Posted By: GatorJ
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You are correct, he doesn't. I read into it something that wasn't there. My mistake.


An archoil thread tends to do that to people around here.

Yep, reminds me of a line from Steve Martin's "Grandmother's Song"

"Criticize things you don't know about"
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3382269 - 05/27/14 03:51 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3884
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well I did say I misunderstood and read into his statement. But the part about being able to measure (and attribute to Archoil) a 1% MPG increase, that I do know about. What do you think about that claim?



For the most part, all this site has is people's opinions about an oil additive working for them. There is no concrete evidence showing MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

So take the claim like all others as one person's experience. If you don't like it, trust it, whatever, just let it go and move on. This used to be the best subforum on this site because people were open minded and wanted to hear/see others trying new things. Now it is just hypocrites trolling each other.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 115k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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#3382274 - 05/27/14 03:55 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
2008 Subbi Tribeca has a 16.9 gallon tank.

322.79 miles (19.1mpg x 16.9 gal tank) vs 326.17 miles (19.3mpg x 16.9) per tank

3.38 miles difference.


Edited by Trajan (05/27/14 03:56 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3382360 - 05/27/14 06:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 10248
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3382370 - 05/27/14 06:46 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.


LOL I think etc. was intended to mean A-Rx.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3382626 - 05/27/14 11:52 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trav]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for fixing that Trav. It needed inclusion.

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#3382829 - 05/28/14 07:57 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trav]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.

Since there *is* concrete evidence that ARX does work, from Dnewton to the late Gary Allen to taxi tests to a thread by Artem, (remember that one, where you, demarpaint and Mystic jumped all over him because he said it worked better than kreen.), you "fix" is wrong.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3382852 - 05/28/14 08:43 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.

Since there *is* concrete evidence that ARX does work, from Dnewton to the late Gary Allen to taxi tests to a thread by Artem, (remember that one, where you, demarpaint and Mystic jumped all over him because he said it worked better than kreen.), you "fix" is wrong.


All I said was I thought etc. meant A-Rx..........Are you reading between the lines too? Gary Allen also stated pay for the test and you'll get the results you want.

IIRC Artem also tried other cleaning products before A-Rx, so giving any product total credit for results would be difficult.

We've been down this road, it gets old after a while.


Edited by demarpaint (05/28/14 08:58 AM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383016 - 05/28/14 12:01 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
This does get old. Most of the people here who said they had tried MMO or Kreen said that those products worked for them. I remember only a few negative posts about those products. I am not going to go into all of the endless routine that all of that is just anecdotal evidence. All we have for most of these products is anecdotal evidence. Some big oil company is not going to run scientific testing for us. Unless somebody here was super rich and could afford to pay for the testing.

This has all been gone over again and again. People should be allowed to talk about what products they have tested. There would be little to talk about here if people were not allowed to discuss their experiences here with various products.

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#3383068 - 05/28/14 01:06 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Tested how? The only "testing" I have ever seen here is along the lines of hand-to-the-manifold testing; blurry and/inconclusive cell phone pictures; supposed better tests that under the lightest of scrutiny reveal that multiple parameters were changed for the test; testimonials about how "better" the car feels and how it is "smoother" or "idles better"; and tales of how somebody's grandpappy always added that to their ND30 oil and it "worked for years". You seen anything better?

I'm not being argumentative but each and every test I have seen has been so full of statistical or methodical holes as to be completely and utterly worthless.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
This has all been gone over again and again. People should be allowed to talk about what products they have tested. There would be little to talk about here if people were not allowed to discuss their experiences here with various products.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383082 - 05/28/14 01:22 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Tested how? The only "testing" I have ever seen here is along the lines of hand-to-the-manifold testing; blurry and/inconclusive cell phone pictures; supposed better tests that under the lightest of scrutiny reveal that multiple parameters were changed for the test; testimonials about how "better" the car feels and how it is "smoother" or "idles better"; and tales of how somebody's grandpappy always added that to their ND30 oil and it "worked for years". You seen anything better?

I'm not being argumentative but each and every test I have seen has been so full of statistical or methodical holes as to be completely and utterly worthless.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
This has all been gone over again and again. People should be allowed to talk about what products they have TRIED. There would be little to talk about here if people were not allowed to discuss their experiences here with various products.


I fixed it. Unfortunately even tested products must be taken with a grain of salt, as I already mentioned above.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383095 - 05/28/14 01:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
I don't disagree with your change, but tell me how that makes a difference.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Tested how? The only "testing" I have ever seen here is along the lines of hand-to-the-manifold testing; blurry and/inconclusive cell phone pictures; supposed better tests that under the lightest of scrutiny reveal that multiple parameters were changed for the test; testimonials about how "better" the car feels and how it is "smoother" or "idles better"; and tales of how somebody's grandpappy always added that to their ND30 oil and it "worked for years". You seen anything better?

I'm not being argumentative but each and every test I have seen has been so full of statistical or methodical holes as to be completely and utterly worthless.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
This has all been gone over again and again. People should be allowed to talk about what products they have TRIED. There would be little to talk about here if people were not allowed to discuss their experiences here with various products.

I fixed it. Unfortunately even tested products must be taken with a grain of salt, as I already mentioned above.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383105 - 05/28/14 01:48 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I don't disagree with your change, but tell me how that makes a difference.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Tested how? The only "testing" I have ever seen here is along the lines of hand-to-the-manifold testing; blurry and/inconclusive cell phone pictures; supposed better tests that under the lightest of scrutiny reveal that multiple parameters were changed for the test; testimonials about how "better" the car feels and how it is "smoother" or "idles better"; and tales of how somebody's grandpappy always added that to their ND30 oil and it "worked for years". You seen anything better?

I'm not being argumentative but each and every test I have seen has been so full of statistical or methodical holes as to be completely and utterly worthless.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
This has all been gone over again and again. People should be allowed to talk about what products they have TRIED. There would be little to talk about here if people were not allowed to discuss their experiences here with various products.

I fixed it. Unfortunately even tested products must be taken with a grain of salt, as I already mentioned above.


Tried means just that, tried. Tested would open up a whole big can of worms, just like it did here. People would like to see how the test was conducted and if it was valid or not, then systematically pick it apart if they like. If someone tried something it is a lot less formal IMO, and lets the guy off the hook for those looking to attack, question, challenge, or even praise the results.


Edited by demarpaint (05/28/14 01:53 PM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383110 - 05/28/14 01:52 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12961
Loc: Irvine, CA
I posted what I observed when using certain additive(s) in 1 or more my cars. Everybody should take what I posted as an experience in my car(s) alone in my area(So Cal) with my driving style.

One thing for sure is I don't post positive result(s) because I was paid to do it.

Example, I could not get Kreen in California so I used non-solvent Lubegard engine flush with reduced dosage. Instead of full bottle for 10-15 minutes I used 1/2 oz per quart for 200-300 miles. I didn't follow manufacture's direction, I tried to see if my way worked or not and it worked as I expected.


Edited by HTSS_TR (05/28/14 01:58 PM)
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#3383114 - 05/28/14 01:55 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: HTSS_TR]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I posted what I observed when using certain additive(s) in 1 or more my cars. Everybody should take what I posted as an experience in my car(s) alone in my area(So Cal) with my driving style.

One thing for sure is I don't post positive result(s) because I was paid to do it.


I post my experiences, good and bad. I haven't been paid as of yet. I haven't collected a dime or an ounce of free product either.


Edited by demarpaint (05/28/14 01:57 PM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383117 - 05/28/14 01:58 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
But if you "try" something, there has to be a conclusion. Even if your conclusion is that it did nothing, that may or may not be true depending on how you arrived at that conclusion. I can say I tried an additive and conclude that it did nothing. However, it may be that I was looking at the color of the oil during my trial and this is not a reliable indicator of performance.

Take this thread for example. The OP tried Archoil. Besides stating that he thought it didn't do anything, he also mentions a 1% increase in mileage. Now 1% is meaningless in a real-world test. The prevailing winds here in Milwaukee during my morning commute (on the lake, off the lake), coupled with the changing time of sunrise and the presence or absence of holidays all would contribute to any mileage variation that is impossible to factor out in this example.

So am I to conclude from this one trial that on a global scale Archoil is worthless? Or do I say this is a meaningless test and no conclusion can be made?

If no conclusion can be made, and if this trial is no different than any other trial here on BITOG, why should anyone alter their opinion based on these results?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Tried means just that, tried. Tested would open up a whole big can of worms, just like it did here. People would like to see how the test was conducted and if it was valid or not, then systematically pick it apart. If someone tried something it is a lot less formal IMO, and lets the guy off the hook for those looking to attack, question, challenge, or even praise the results.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383135 - 05/28/14 02:17 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
But if you "try" something, there has to be a conclusion. Even if your conclusion is that it did nothing, that may or may not be true depending on how you arrived at that conclusion. I can say I tried an additive and conclude that it did nothing. However, it may be that I was looking at the color of the oil during my trial and this is not a reliable indicator of performance.

Take this thread for example. The OP tried Archoil. Besides stating that he thought it didn't do anything, he also mentions a 1% increase in mileage. Now 1% is meaningless in a real-world test. The prevailing winds here in Milwaukee during my morning commute, coupled with the changing time of sunrise and the presence or absence of holidays all would contribute to any mileage variation that is impossible to factor out in this example.

So am I to conclude from this one trial that on a global scale Archoil is worthless? What other conclusion could be made?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Tried means just that, tried. Tested would open up a whole big can of worms, just like it did here. People would like to see how the test was conducted and if it was valid or not, then systematically pick it apart. If someone tried something it is a lot less formal IMO, and lets the guy off the hook for those looking to attack, question, challenge, or even praise the results.


There's really no point in me going in circles with words, we're very much alike. People like us should "try" the product and come to our own conclusions. That's what I did with a few different products over the years. Products that I thought had some merit. Some where good, some were total garbage. I posted my observations, took some heat at times, and moved on. Other times I had people thanking me.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383145 - 05/28/14 02:25 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Scientific testing of the vast majority of any of these products is out of the question. It might cost a million dollars or more to run some kind of testing.

I look at it this way-if 300 guys here have used MMO or Kreen or some other product, and 98% of those guys have obtained what they consider to be positive results, maybe the product is worth a try. About the only other testing that anybody here could afford is to take photos of the engine on the inside after a cleaning product has been used or do compression testing with a quality compression tester. And of course we have to take the word of whoever presents the before and after photographs and the before and after compression testing. If somebody uses a poor quality compression tester the results might as well be thrown out.

There are a very few products that probably did get tested. For example, Valvoline not so long ago was selling their own oil supplements. Scaheffer's has also sold old supplements. And Lubegard is probably a big enough company to do some testing. Kreen is sold by Kano Labs, which as far as I know is a reputable company. MMO is sold by Turtle Wax which is also a company of some size.

I don't think I would want to mess around with some concoction that somebody had developed in their garage. But on the other hand a lot of successful companies started in garages.

I also am not going to mess around with any product where the promoters play fast and loose with the facts, or a product that is promoted at a state fair and nobody has ever heard of the product before. If somebody says, 'The product was tested in a taxi company,' is it okay for me to ask what the name of the taxi company was, and when the testing took place? Or if somebody says, 'There is no need to test this product further. I have already tested it with a compression tester.' Really? Maybe I tested my revolutionary product SuperX Oil Supplement also with a compression tester. Anybody can make any kind of claims.

And I think it is wrong to throw out ancedotal testimony. If hundreds of guys have tried some product here isn't their testimony worth something? It may not be scientific evidence, but who is going to try that product if 95% of the guys say they have negative results or harmful results? So can't the reverse also be true? If the vast majority of hundreds of guys trying a product have obtained positive results, isn't there some possibility that the product might be good?

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#3383150 - 05/28/14 02:28 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
But if you "try" something, there has to be a conclusion. Even if your conclusion is that it did nothing, that may or may not be true depending on how you arrived at that conclusion. I can say I tried an additive and conclude that it did nothing. However, it may be that I was looking at the color of the oil during my trial and this is not a reliable indicator of performance.

Take this thread for example. The OP tried Archoil. Besides stating that he thought it didn't do anything, he also mentions a 1% increase in mileage. Now 1% is meaningless in a real-world test. The prevailing winds here in Milwaukee during my morning commute (on the lake, off the lake), coupled with the changing time of sunrise and the presence or absence of holidays all would contribute to any mileage variation that is impossible to factor out in this example.

So am I to conclude from this one trial that on a global scale Archoil is worthless? Or do I say this is a meaningless test and no conclusion can be made?

If no conclusion can be made, and if this trial is no different than any other trial here on BITOG, why should anyone alter their opinion based on these results?

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Tried means just that, tried. Tested would open up a whole big can of worms, just like it did here. People would like to see how the test was conducted and if it was valid or not, then systematically pick it apart. If someone tried something it is a lot less formal IMO, and lets the guy off the hook for those looking to attack, question, challenge, or even praise the results.



I tested mos2,running a new to me vehicle on my commute which is flat and 30+ miles each way. I established a baseline after 3000+ miles,tracking every tank of fuel,then added mos2 and again tracked consumption for a total of 10000 miles all told.
I used cruise control,bought fuel from the same station and pump every time,so the only actual variable that was uncontrolled was wind speed.
And even then my observations weren't good enough.
All I wanted to to was to test the stuff objectively and see if there were any changes in fuel consumption that could be considered more than just tank to tank variation.
I also wanted to see if my observations in my other vehicles were more than just in my head.
And I proved it to myself that the stuff worked. I gained iirc 3-4mpg consistently,on the highway.
City mileage wasn't noticeable one way or the other however on the highway the increase was significant enough that 1 tank of fuel savings more than covered the cost of the additive,which I call good return on investment.
Now if all my miles were city driven I'm confident there would be little to no fuel economy improvement because of how traffic works,constant stops and starts but when on the highway there was a significant,repeatable improvement.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3383156 - 05/28/14 02:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Mystic-Even if someone was to pay for the testing, it would take minutes for many of us to nitpick the testing methods and results. Bottom line, if you feel a product has some benefit that you might be in need of, try it. If you don't have the time or desire to get into a slug fest keep your observations and opinions to yourself.
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#3383159 - 05/28/14 02:36 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
One of the problems with any kind of additive is the relatively small effect they are claiming. For example, if the Archoil oil additive claims to reduce friction, you have to factor in that the coefficient of friction in motor oil is already extremely low. Even if you reduce it by 75% it is still going to be a small amount that is very hard to measure in an operating engine. It's kind of like the difference between buying two lottery tickets instead of just one. The marginal improvement is not a whole lot.

So you get additive companies making claims that for the most part are great sounding claims but nearly impossible to prove. If motor oil was some horrible substance that could barely keep an engine alive, and the additive claimed to improve it by 90%, well great, you could easily see that kind of a difference. But modern oils are already pretty good and any "improvement" whatever it might be is going to be tough to see. Whenever somebody claims a "%improvement", make sure you know what the base numbers are. It would be more meaningful if the additive company posted actual numbers.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383164 - 05/28/14 02:39 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Clevy]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
So what is that, about a 10% improvement?

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I tested mos2,running a new to me vehicle on my commute which is flat and 30+ miles each way. I established a baseline after 3000+ miles,tracking every tank of fuel,then added mos2 and again tracked consumption for a total of 10000 miles all told.
I used cruise control,bought fuel from the same station and pump every time,so the only actual variable that was uncontrolled was wind speed.
And even then my observations weren't good enough.
All I wanted to to was to test the stuff objectively and see if there were any changes in fuel consumption that could be considered more than just tank to tank variation.
I also wanted to see if my observations in my other vehicles were more than just in my head.
And I proved it to myself that the stuff worked. I gained iirc 3-4mpg consistently,on the highway.
City mileage wasn't noticeable one way or the other however on the highway the increase was significant enough that 1 tank of fuel savings more than covered the cost of the additive,which I call good return on investment.
Now if all my miles were city driven I'm confident there would be little to no fuel economy improvement because of how traffic works,constant stops and starts but when on the highway there was a significant,repeatable improvement.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383171 - 05/28/14 02:46 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Nobody has to use any oil supplement, although a new car dealership might try to sell you oil supplements. If a person does not believe in oil supplements, they don't have to use any-period. I do get tired of the people who are promoting some product here and they put down every product and claim their product works. Their product is the grand exception.

Kreen is sold by Kano Labs. I have heard of Kano Labs. I assume they are a reputable company. I have also heard of Turtle Wax (MMO) and Lubegard. I have heard of the company that makes LM moly. I am more likely to buy a product from a company I have heard of before.

Right now I am using very few supplements of any kind. I still use Techron, which was developed by Chevron, an oil company I have heard of.

I do think guys should be allowed at the Oil Additives Section here to discuss varous oil supplements. That is what this section is for.

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#3383193 - 05/28/14 03:16 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12961
Loc: Irvine, CA
I agree with Mystic.

I tried various additives from only reputable companies such as Lubegard, Liqui Moly(Lubro Moly), Chevron ... Most of them worked as expected. Especially, the cost of those additives are relatively cheap such that if it didn't work it didn't hurt the pocket much.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
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#3383203 - 05/28/14 03:22 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So what is that, about a 10% improvement?

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I tested mos2,running a new to me vehicle on my commute which is flat and 30+ miles each way. I established a baseline after 3000+ miles,tracking every tank of fuel,then added mos2 and again tracked consumption for a total of 10000 miles all told.
I used cruise control,bought fuel from the same station and pump every time,so the only actual variable that was uncontrolled was wind speed.
And even then my observations weren't good enough.
All I wanted to to was to test the stuff objectively and see if there were any changes in fuel consumption that could be considered more than just tank to tank variation.
I also wanted to see if my observations in my other vehicles were more than just in my head.
And I proved it to myself that the stuff worked. I gained iirc 3-4mpg consistently,on the highway.
City mileage wasn't noticeable one way or the other however on the highway the increase was significant enough that 1 tank of fuel savings more than covered the cost of the additive,which I call good return on investment.
Now if all my miles were city driven I'm confident there would be little to no fuel economy improvement because of how traffic works,constant stops and starts but when on the highway there was a significant,repeatable improvement.


Well the charger baselined at 25ish on the highway,so 3-4 mpg is probably closer to 5% isn't it,or has the sun cooked my brain today.

I don't blame anyone for their skepticism,the whole additive market is pretty much snake oil in pretty containers,but the few that do work as advertised are worth mentioning.
Now I've noticed significant gains only in v-8 engines. Smaller engines don't seem to benefit as much on the fuel consumption end although from the posts I've read some guys do mention a free'er spinning engine,less shake etc,but for me,in the small engines I've used it in fuel consumption wasn't affected enough for me to make note of.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3383236 - 05/28/14 03:47 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Clevy]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Ah well I didn't see what car you used it in. I was thinking it was something with higher mileage.

OK so maybe my 530i with the V-8 is a good candidate. My daughter drives it back and forth to school (250 miles each way). Sounds like a fit.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Well the charger baselined at 25ish on the highway,so 3-4 mpg is probably closer to 5% isn't it,or has the sun cooked my brain today.

I don't blame anyone for their skepticism,the whole additive market is pretty much snake oil in pretty containers,but the few that do work as advertised are worth mentioning.
Now I've noticed significant gains only in v-8 engines. Smaller engines don't seem to benefit as much on the fuel consumption end although from the posts I've read some guys do mention a free'er spinning engine,less shake etc,but for me,in the small engines I've used it in fuel consumption wasn't affected enough for me to make note of.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383273 - 05/28/14 04:49 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
It amuses me that every few weeks we see the same posters NOT talking about the additive that started the thread but instead pontificating on how discussions on additives SHOULD take place. Which companies make good additives, how we should interpret results, what anecdotes are valid and which are not.

Having to wade through these posts every time is suffocating this sub forum.

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#3383329 - 05/28/14 05:54 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9546
Loc: OH
19.1 mpg to 19.3 mpg is no more than fillup variation.
Consider this:
The difference between the two is only .15 gallons over a three hundred mile run, or about a beer can and a half. You can easily put in another couple of tenths on a full tank with patience if you'd like, so we can say that archoil did nothing for the fuel economy of your Trib.
Incidentally, 19 mpg is not bad for this heavy AWD vehicle with its thirsty, but very nice flat six.
_________________________
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02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
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#3383340 - 05/28/14 06:04 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
No doubt. Just like how every few weeks we see the same kind of anecdotal posts about the effectiveness some additive, such as a "hand to the manifold test" or an observed approximate 1% increase in fuel economy. Then when that, as the only offered evidence of effectiveness is discussed, some people decry how the additive itself isn't being discussed. Generally the next comment is a dismissal of any input by those who haven't actually used the product.

Frustrating, isn't it?

Originally Posted By: Sam2000
It amuses me that every few weeks we see the same posters NOT talking about the additive that started the thread but instead pontificating on how discussions on additives SHOULD take place. Which companies make good additives, how we should interpret results, what anecdotes are valid and which are not.

Having to wade through these posts every time is suffocating this sub forum.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383356 - 05/28/14 06:18 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
If someone starts a thread about their use of a particular additive and someone challenges their conclusions about that additive, then that's fine.

But to constantly read posts about how additive discussions should take place and what certain people's additive philosophy is are getting very old.

You'd think they either have a goal to increase their post count or there is some other issue going on with them.

I think I will put certain people on Ignore.

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#3383388 - 05/28/14 06:42 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
If someone starts a thread about their use of a particular additive and someone challenges their conclusions about that additive, then that's fine.

But to constantly read posts about how additive discussions should take place and what certain people's additive philosophy is are getting very old.

You'd think they either have a goal to increase their post count or there is some other issue going on with them.

I think I will put certain people on Ignore.


Like people who claim "I don't blame anyone for their skepticism," and their postings complain about said skepticism?

Testimonial hype. Companies love it because they don't have to take responsibility for it.

People love it because they can point to it and avoid any responsibility for knowing exactly what it does. (My dad's uncle's half sister on his mothers side used Brand X in her Locomobile and it didn't kill it. So I'll use it....)


Edited by Trajan (05/28/14 06:47 PM)
_________________________

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#3383455 - 05/28/14 07:31 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Trajan, you make 2 good points there.

Firstly, we have some here who talk out of both sides of their face. Unfortunately, many of these people have a high post count and we see their posts way too often. Fortunately, we do have an ignore feature. And what's funny is that these posters don't seem to realize that if they post a lot but offer up inconsistent viewpoints, their credibility will disappear quicker and with more readers due to the increased frequency that their high postings on the same topic are read.

Secondly, most vehicle damage occurs over time, whether it is a poor design or repair, incorrect fluid, or unapproved additive. Thus is why the threshold for qualifying as a CPO vehicle is quite high.

So additive manufacturers rarely have any blame traced back to them. Just like the mechanic who once used the incorrect coolant or transmission fluid will likely get away with it.

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#3383548 - 05/28/14 09:29 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Here's an observation of mine, its always the same old players and one that can't seem to keep the same user name looking to take pokes to rile up people. Oil additives are always going to have anecdotal evidence, no one is going to spend the money to lab test them. Maybe that should be a sticky in the additive section and see if it helps cut down on these types of threads.

Furthermore, as far as I know there is no limit to how many posts a person can make here. In over eleven years I have a little over 7000 posts and replies in posts. That is something like 1.7 posts a day. I don't think that is excessive. Some people have more. Some people less. If the owner of this website and the moderators tell me I am posting too much then I will worry about it. I am not going to worry about it if somebody else who is not a moderator here keeps worrying about how many times I post and reply in posts.

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#3383572 - 05/28/14 09:57 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Here's an observation of mine, its always the same old players and one that can't seem to keep the same user name looking to take pokes to rile up people. Oil additives are always going to have anecdotal evidence, no one is going to spend the money to lab test them. Maybe that should be a sticky in the additive section and see if it helps cut down on these types of threads.

Furthermore, as far as I know there is no limit to how many posts a person can make here. In over eleven years I have a little over 7000 posts and replies in posts. That is something like 1.7 posts a day. I don't think that is excessive. Some people have more. Some people less. If the owner of this website and the moderators tell me I am posting too much then I will worry about it. I am not going to worry about it if somebody else who is not a moderator here keeps worrying about how many times I post and reply in posts.


LOL

Nice catch buddy! Time to tweak the ignore list again.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383687 - 05/29/14 04:26 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 10248
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.

Since there *is* concrete evidence that ARX does work, from Dnewton to the late Gary Allen to taxi tests to a thread by Artem, (remember that one, where you, demarpaint and Mystic jumped all over him because he said it worked better than kreen.), you "fix" is wrong.

I wondered how long it would be before you jumped in.
This has all been gone over before. I realize you are trying to bring the product into the limelight but forget it chief, you will have to argue with yourself.

My advise to anyone thinking of using this product is just search all the old threads on this stuff.
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#3383701 - 05/29/14 05:47 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Trajan, you make 2 good points there.

Firstly, we have some here who talk out of both sides of their face. Unfortunately, many of these people have a high post count and we see their posts way too often. Fortunately, we do have an ignore feature. And what's funny is that these posters don't seem to realize that if they post a lot but offer up inconsistent viewpoints, their credibility will disappear quicker and with more readers due to the increased frequency that their high postings on the same topic are read.

Secondly, most vehicle damage occurs over time, whether it is a poor design or repair, incorrect fluid, or unapproved additive. Thus is why the threshold for qualifying as a CPO vehicle is quite high.

So additive manufacturers rarely have any blame traced back to them. Just like the mechanic who once used the incorrect coolant or transmission fluid will likely get away with it.


Don't worry about a high post count.

As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,


Edited by Trajan (05/29/14 05:58 AM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3383705 - 05/29/14 06:07 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.
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#3383782 - 05/29/14 08:55 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
wow i only posted my results to possibly help the next person make a decision on purchasing this product

if 100 people try a product and their results are similar one might conclude that a product is good or bad

thats all this post was

i invite all to reread my original post

i never said i added this to my gas tank, it is an oil additive product

i never said it was one tank of fuel, i said it was a thousand miles

and i never claimed my increase in mileage was from the archoil

i said it was not scientific

if i cant post my results without being attacked or having the post go off on personality conflicts i dont see the purpose of posting here anymore

i thought this site was for people to have discussion on various things related to products and opinions about the products not attacks on posts and posters

jeesh

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#3383787 - 05/29/14 08:58 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
no disrespect to this site

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#3383802 - 05/29/14 09:23 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
i have a 2008 subaru tribeca and in an effort to increase mileage (19.1 mpg) i put in archoil 9100
it has been about 1000 miles and fuel mileage is now 19.3 mpg


You wanted better mpg, you used it, and claim an increase. So just what conclusion is to be drawn from that other than giving credit to a product?
_________________________

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#3383865 - 05/29/14 10:53 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8317
Loc: NorthEast
If someone wants to post the mileage results, please post entire data e.g. last 30 fill-ups. We will then plot it and try to guess the demarcation point where the magical elixir was used.

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#3383873 - 05/29/14 11:08 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Vikas]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
trajan conclude what you want but it was not my conclusion only what the car computer reported

it was 1000 miles and what the dash computer estimated which by the way i have compared to my calculations and has been correct

again i simply poured in archoil and noted mileage then drove 1000 mixed miles and noted mileage thats all

i make no claims

you all can make your own conclusions and decide for yourselves whether to buy or not but please dont attack me or my findings

myself i choose not to buy the product again due to poor or no results

Steve

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#3383912 - 05/29/14 12:17 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Trajan said this: 'Don't worry about a high post count.'

'As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,'

This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.

And if a product was tested in a taxi cab fleet before I buy the product is it okay for me to ask the name of the taxi cab company, and the date the testing was done? Or is that too much to ask? Is the customer not allowed to ask any questions?

We also have a new guy at this website who is complaining about certain people having high post count rates. I find this very curious. Especially since certain posters who have been banned form this website were also complaining about high posts counts and certain other things against the SAME POSTERS HERE! Is that not a pattern? There have been several posters here who wound up being banned when they attacked people at this website and they seemed to be complaining about the same people here and they had the same complaints. One of those complaints being high post counts. What a strange coincidence.

And exactly what right does a new member here have to complain about how many posts a member here has? If the owner of the website and the moderators have a problem with how much a member is posting, I am sure they will let that member know. I don't think it is up to a new member to determine how much times a member can post here.

And we need to notice patterns of behavior here. If a series of new posters here have complained about the same group of posters, with the same complaints against those posters, and attacking the same group of posters here, that is a pattern. We have had a whole series of new posters here who have attacked the same group of members, such as demarpaint, Trav, me, and others. I personally have been attacked because of my age, because I watch FOX News, because of how many posts I have (about 7000 in over eleven years-I don't think that is excessive), and for various other reasons. When I became a member here as far as I know there were no age requirements and the last time I checked this was a free country, so I should be allowed to watch what news I want to watch. I am bringing all of this up before the attacks begin again. And when and if I again am told that I have no right to post here because I am too old, or I watch the wrong news channel, or I post too much, I am going to notify the moderators immediately.

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#3383938 - 05/29/14 12:59 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Wowie zowie.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Trajan said this: 'Don't worry about a high post count.'

'As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,'

This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.

And if a product was tested in a taxi cab fleet before I buy the product is it okay for me to ask the name of the taxi cab company, and the date the testing was done? Or is that too much to ask? Is the customer not allowed to ask any questions?

We also have a new guy at this website who is complaining about certain people having high post count rates. I find this very curious. Especially since certain posters who have been banned form this website were also complaining about high posts counts and certain other things against the SAME POSTERS HERE! Is that not a pattern? There have been several posters here who wound up being banned when they attacked people at this website and they seemed to be complaining about the same people here and they had the same complaints. One of those complaints being high post counts. What a strange coincidence.

And exactly what right does a new member here have to complain about how many posts a member here has? If the owner of the website and the moderators have a problem with how much a member is posting, I am sure they will let that member know. I don't think it is up to a new member to determine how much times a member can post here.

And we need to notice patterns of behavior here. If a series of new posters here have complained about the same group of posters, with the same complaints against those posters, and attacking the same group of posters here, that is a pattern. We have had a whole series of new posters here who have attacked the same group of members, such as demarpaint, Trav, me, and others. I personally have been attacked because of my age, because I watch FOX News, because of how many posts I have (about 7000 in over eleven years-I don't think that is excessive), and for various other reasons. When I became a member here as far as I know there were no age requirements and the last time I checked this was a free country, so I should be allowed to watch what news I want to watch. I am bringing all of this up before the attacks begin again. And when and if I again am told that I have no right to post here because I am too old, or I watch the wrong news channel, or I post too much, I am going to notify the moderators immediately.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383950 - 05/29/14 01:07 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15279
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3383956 - 05/29/14 01:16 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: SteveSRT8]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.


It appears he edited his post while I was replying, which is why what I quoted appears differently. I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383963 - 05/29/14 01:28 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Seriously, we don't even have that. Clevy's posts about using a product over many thousands of miles and resulting in an approximately 5% MPG increase are what I would call credible anecdotal evidence. For this product however, we haven't got squat. And I mean that in the nicest terms possible.

There's independently verified, peer-reviewed standard laboratory tests, then there's reliable anecdotal evidence, then there are posts about Archoil where it ranges from hand-to-the-manifold tests and spinning tires that won't stay planted on the pavement to idle speed increases that then reverse themselves. Come on. Throw in a few blurry cell phone pics where the OP also changed several other parameters of the test, and you get the sum total of "anecdotal evidence" for Archoil.

The company's own website doesn't help at all either. It's full of pseudo-scientific babble speech that (IMHO) is only intended to obfuscate the discussion. Their biggest claim about the Bell Labs thing doesn't even really connect to their product but they want you to believe it does. It doesn't. That right there is a big enough red flag for me to discredit anything else they try and say.

I'm going to stick with the OP's conclusion that it didn't do anything of note.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3383968 - 05/29/14 01:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Mostly all we have for any product here is anecdotal evidence. For the product he seems to be promoting there was compression testing allegedly done by one guy who is a proponent of that product and they make some various others claims, such as testing in a taxi fleet.

But some products are different than other products. We know that Kano Labs makes Kreen. We know that Lubegard makes various products. We know that Turtle Wax makes MMO. We know that Chevron makes Technron. I for one would be more inclined to buy products from known companies.

Now just because a company is a known company does not mean the products it makes are great. STP was fined I think twice by the FTC for false advertising. Duralube was fined. Slick50 was fined. But none of the companies I have listed above have been fined as far as I know.

If people were not allowed to discuss products here in the Oil Additives Section where there is just anecdotal evidence, there would be few products even discussed here. But on the other hand, I would assume that companies like Kano Labs, Lubegard, Chevron and so forth have done some kind of testing.

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#3383972 - 05/29/14 01:38 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Seriously, we don't even have that. Clevy's posts about using a product over many thousands of miles and resulting in an approximately 5% MPG increase are what I would call credible anecdotal evidence. For this product however, we haven't got squat. And I mean that in the nicest terms possible.

There's independently verified, peer-reviewed standard laboratory tests, then there's reliable anecdotal evidence, then there are posts about Archoil where it ranges from hand-to-the-manifold tests and spinning tires that won't stay planted on the pavement to idle speed increases that then reverse themselves. Come on. Throw in a few blurry cell phone pics where the OP also changed several other parameters of the test, and you get the sum total of "anecdotal evidence" for Archoil.

The company's own website doesn't help at all either. It's full of pseudo-scientific babble speech that (IMHO) is only intended to obfuscate the discussion. Their biggest claim about the Bell Labs thing doesn't even really connect to their product but they want you to believe it does. It doesn't. That right there is a big enough red flag for me to discredit anything else they try and say.

I'm going to stick with the OP's conclusion that it didn't do anything of note.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.


I agree. My point here is anytime we get on these topics its the same comments from the same people, myself included. My comments about the testing etc. remain the same though.

In this case the anecdotal evidence is steering me away from the product. That doesn't make the OP wrong or a bad person for sharing though.


Edited by demarpaint (05/29/14 01:41 PM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383974 - 05/29/14 01:41 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
I agree with you about Archoil. The website does not impress me. Some of the claims they make sound to me like some of the claims made by the Synlube guys who said NASA had used their product.

I am much more impressed with a product like LM moly that Clevy has tested and it is made by a known company. You can order the stuff at NAPA.

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#3383988 - 05/29/14 02:04 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Since finding this site my additive testing days are over. Now I ONLY use what I read is recommended in this forum.

I understand skepticism. In fact I agree with it. The whole additive market is basically snake oil in pretty packages.
But some aren't.
I absolutely admit that I've not always had a positive experience using mos2. In very low mile or newer engines I admit I didn't note any differences worth mentioning,however in every higher mile engine I've used it in I've found there was an improvement in the fuel consumption and running condition of the engine.
I feel this forum is a place to share ideas,and anecdotes about products that maybe some know nothing about,and there are a few if is here who embrace that idea of sharing.
Then there are others who insist on implying posters are lying and just put a negative cloud over the whole thing,and I think that's wrong.
Yes,if a person has had a negative experience with a product being discussed I want to hear it. But it seems there's a select few running that broken record and it's no longer a sharing of ideas and experiences it's a pi$$ing match.
And I'm disgusted by those who attack a few members here based on the news they watch or whatever other truly absurd reason,which has nothing to do with the experience with a product that they are trying to express.
I'm thankful for these guys,and I'm honoured to consider them friends. And these childish attacks by banned guys who've figured out how to bypass their ban takes away from the spirit of the site,which is the sharing of ideas and experiences.
To them I say grow up.
To my friends I say ignore it. These childish posters add nothing and the whole thing has become boring
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3383998 - 05/29/14 02:16 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Clevy]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Thanks Clevy. Various newer members here of course have no idea what we are talking about. There have been as far as I can determine three members here who kept getting banned and kept coming back with new user names. Two of them apparently have decided to finally call it quits and not come back.

But unfortunately we still have one who keeps getting banned because he seems incapable of following simple rules and comes back maybe just to attack certain members here. I wish this person could GROW UP and learn to follow simple rules if he wants to stay here or else if he is going to continue to attack people here just leave.

The pattern has been that soon enough the attacks begin with the hints that somebody is too old to be posting here, that members here are only allowed to have certain views on things and only allowed to watch certain news channels (because we must support diversity of opinion of course-LOL!), that in my case I am an old man with no family and no friends (actually I have both), and all of the rest of the smug and arrogant nonsense. And then the retread will be banned again for attacking people and then he will come back with a new user name because he is SO CLEVER and SO SUPERIOR to everybody else here.

I really appreciate your testing of MMO and LM moly. I might give LM moly a try one of these days.

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#3384026 - 05/29/14 02:59 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.


It appears he edited his post while I was replying, which is why what I quoted appears differently. I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.


You should never ASSume what is in my mind. I made a mistake and corrected it.

You only have anecdotal evidence as that is what you're willing to accept. But you've been called out before for *not* accepting negative anecdotes when it comes to MMO.

So then you won't *ever* argue with the following:
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
MMO is an old well proven product.

It doesn't fix broken parts. It can't clean out an entire engine that's heavily sludged. But it has its place in a large arsenal of products.

AutoRX is a nuclear bomb by comparison. That stuff is miraculous


Edited by Trajan (05/29/14 03:09 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384031 - 05/29/14 03:03 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
trajan conclude what you want but it was not my conclusion only what the car computer reported


The conclusion is based on your posting. No more, no less.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384035 - 05/29/14 03:08 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: SteveSRT8]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.


So I guess this trumps all then?

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
MMO is an old well proven product.

It doesn't fix broken parts. It can't clean out an entire engine that's heavily sludged. But it has its place in a large arsenal of products.

AutoRX is a nuclear bomb by comparison. That stuff is miraculous


The silence is deafening.


Edited by Trajan (05/29/14 03:14 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384039 - 05/29/14 03:13 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Wowie zowie.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Trajan said this: 'Don't worry about a high post count.'

'As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,'

This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.

And if a product was tested in a taxi cab fleet before I buy the product is it okay for me to ask the name of the taxi cab company, and the date the testing was done? Or is that too much to ask? Is the customer not allowed to ask any questions?

We also have a new guy at this website who is complaining about certain people having high post count rates. I find this very curious. Especially since certain posters who have been banned form this website were also complaining about high posts counts and certain other things against the SAME POSTERS HERE! Is that not a pattern? There have been several posters here who wound up being banned when they attacked people at this website and they seemed to be complaining about the same people here and they had the same complaints. One of those complaints being high post counts. What a strange coincidence.

And exactly what right does a new member here have to complain about how many posts a member here has? If the owner of the website and the moderators have a problem with how much a member is posting, I am sure they will let that member know. I don't think it is up to a new member to determine how much times a member can post here.

And we need to notice patterns of behavior here. If a series of new posters here have complained about the same group of posters, with the same complaints against those posters, and attacking the same group of posters here, that is a pattern. We have had a whole series of new posters here who have attacked the same group of members, such as demarpaint, Trav, me, and others. I personally have been attacked because of my age, because I watch FOX News, because of how many posts I have (about 7000 in over eleven years-I don't think that is excessive), and for various other reasons. When I became a member here as far as I know there were no age requirements and the last time I checked this was a free country, so I should be allowed to watch what news I want to watch. I am bringing all of this up before the attacks begin again. And when and if I again am told that I have no right to post here because I am too old, or I watch the wrong news channel, or I post too much, I am going to notify the moderators immediately.


Yea, I'd rather trust a before and after compression test posted than some guy saying "My engine runs better because I put xyz in it."

But, I guess the hand on the manifold test or the butt dyno trumps everything.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384047 - 05/29/14 03:24 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trajan


You only have anecdotal evidence as that is what you're willing to accept. But you've been called out before for *not* accepting negative anecdotes when it comes to MMO.



Yep you made a mistake and corrected it. I'm still waiting on your lab results to prove otherwise Trajan. You keep harping on testing, lab results etc, show me them. I'll look, but until then there isn't much more to go on. You just don't seem to get it. I sure as [censored] won't pay for the testing to prove to you or anyone else a product works or doesn't work. Of the products I've tried over the years I know what works and what doesn't. In the end that's all that matters to me.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3384051 - 05/29/14 03:34 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
I've often wondered over my years here on BOTG what the compulsion is to disprove and many times disparage, either overtly or by innuendo, one who is sharing a good experience with a product? Is it a missionary-like zealous calling to save the masses from the evils of snake oil? Just curious...

Posted to get my post count up. :-)
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3384056 - 05/29/14 03:39 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


You only have anecdotal evidence as that is what you're willing to accept. But you've been called out before for *not* accepting negative anecdotes when it comes to MMO.



Yep you made a mistake and corrected it. I'm still waiting on your lab results to prove otherwise Trajan. You keep harping on testing, lab results etc, show me them. I'll look, but until then there isn't much more to go on. You just don't seem to get it. I sure as [censored] won't pay for the testing to prove to you or anyone else a product works or doesn't work. Of the products I've tried over the years I know what works and what doesn't. In the end that's all that matters to me.



And what lab results would that be? Where did I ask for labs? Since I make no claims, it does not fall to me to prove them. You are familiar with the concept perhaps?

Resources of a billionaire, a millionaire, or even a thousand dollars, is not needed. Don't know why you seem to think it is.

And if what you say is all that matters to you, then these labs I have yet to ask for would be wasted on you. Even the very expensive pen and paper method of keeping track of mpg both before and after an additive.



Edited by Trajan (05/29/14 03:48 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384060 - 05/29/14 03:44 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: HTSS_TR]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't know how much is a bottle of Archoil and so far there isn't many positive reviews. Liqui Moly MoS2 has many more positive reviews and costs less than $6-7 at NAPA.

I tried 1/2 bottle MoS2 in my E430 last oil change about 250 miles ago, so far the trip computer shows an improvement from 28.5-29.5 MPG to 20.5 MPG with same average speed of 29 MPH. The most MPG improvement was the first 2-3 miles driving of the day. The engine seems a little quieter, but it's possible my mind playing trick.

For less than $5 half bottle MoS2, the cost of experience is cheap enough such that if it didn't do any good I didn't loose too much.

My plan is 1/2 oz per quart MoS2 first treatment in all cars and 1/4 oz per quart maintenance at every oil change after that.
thank you smile

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#3384061 - 05/29/14 03:47 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: badtlc]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
agree 100 percent
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well I did say I misunderstood and read into his statement. But the part about being able to measure (and attribute to Archoil) a 1% MPG increase, that I do know about. What do you think about that claim?



For the most part, all this site has is people's opinions about an oil additive working for them. There is no concrete evidence showing MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

So take the claim like all others as one person's experience. If you don't like it, trust it, whatever, just let it go and move on. This used to be the best subforum on this site because people were open minded and wanted to hear/see others trying new things. Now it is just hypocrites trolling each other.

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#3384066 - 05/29/14 03:53 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


You only have anecdotal evidence as that is what you're willing to accept. But you've been called out before for *not* accepting negative anecdotes when it comes to MMO.



Yep you made a mistake and corrected it. I'm still waiting on your lab results to prove otherwise Trajan. You keep harping on testing, lab results etc, show me them. I'll look, but until then there isn't much more to go on. You just don't seem to get it. I sure as [censored] won't pay for the testing to prove to you or anyone else a product works or doesn't work. Of the products I've tried over the years I know what works and what doesn't. In the end that's all that matters to me.



And what lab results would that be? Where did I ask for labs? Since I make no claims, it does not fall to me to prove them. You are familiar with the concept perhaps?

Resources of a billionaire, a millionaire, or even a thousand dollars, is not needed. Don't know why you seem to think it is.



Your stance has been attacking certain people posting anecdotal evidence, then wanting proof to back up their claims. Can you explain how someone proves a product works to your satisfaction, a product that you dislike? You are familiar with that concept aren't you?
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3384069 - 05/29/14 03:58 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
It amuses me that every few weeks we see the same posters NOT talking about the additive that started the thread but instead pontificating on how discussions on additives SHOULD take place. Which companies make good additives, how we should interpret results, what anecdotes are valid and which are not.

Having to wade through these posts every time is suffocating this sub forum.


oh yeah you nailed it

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#3384074 - 05/29/14 04:04 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
hey hey HEY

what about archoil?

have YOU tried it?

what are your results?

if not start your own thread with useless banter discussing product tests and your feelings or displays of intelligence

otherwise how about staying on the subject

archoil and YOUR experience with it

if you have not tried it what can you say about it?

first hand experiences only please

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#3384083 - 05/29/14 04:14 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21532
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
hey hey HEY

what about archoil?

have YOU tried it?

what are your results?

if not start your own thread with useless banter discussing product tests and your feelings or displays of intelligence

otherwise how about staying on the subject

archoil and YOUR experience with it

if you have not tried it what can you say about it?

first hand experiences only please



Sorry you're right, sometimes I get dragged in deeper than I want. I'm out. Trajan if or anyone else who isn't on IGNORE cares to continue PM me.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3384086 - 05/29/14 04:16 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
some of you talk about or criticize others who step up and post there results or opinions with skepticism and outright attack while you sit back and do no testing of your own

step into the ring and buy a product and post your results so others can tear you apart

come on if you have the guts

otherwise keep your negative useless comments to yourself

i respect experience not some armchair quarterback second guessing others actions

EXPERIENCE...got it

thank you to the rest who add personal experience or positive help

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#3384091 - 05/29/14 04:19 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
i'm done also

jee that was painfull

and i only wanted to see if anyone else had similar results

WOW

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#3384095 - 05/29/14 04:21 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
hey hey HEY

what about archoil?

have YOU tried it?

what are your results?

if not start your own thread with useless banter discussing product tests and your feelings or displays of intelligence

otherwise how about staying on the subject

archoil and YOUR experience with it

if you have not tried it what can you say about it?

first hand experiences only please



Sorry you're right, sometimes I get dragged in deeper than I want. I'm out. Trajan if or anyone else who isn't on IGNORE cares to continue PM me.


smile all is good thanks

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#3384115 - 05/29/14 04:49 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8317
Loc: NorthEast
I tried to keep out but something just hit me. OP has registered his account on 02/03/2006 but made no entry until couple of days ago. Since that time, all of his entries are in this particular topic.

Archoil has to be ABSOLUTELY AMAZING if somebody would break their 8 year silence! Or may somebody's dormant account got hacked???

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#3384120 - 05/29/14 04:52 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Trajan
So I guess this trumps all then?

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
MMO is an old well proven product.

It doesn't fix broken parts. It can't clean out an entire engine that's heavily sludged. But it has its place in a large arsenal of products.

AutoRX is a nuclear bomb by comparison. That stuff is miraculous


The silence is deafening.


Wow! I don't use oil additives but that is just about the strongest personal endorsement I've seen here.

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#3384125 - 05/29/14 04:55 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Vikas]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I tried to keep out but something just hit me. OP has registered his account on 02/03/2006 but made no entry until couple of days ago. Since that time, all of his entries are in this particular topic.

Archoil has to be ABSOLUTELY AMAZING if somebody would break their 8 year silence! Or may somebody's dormant account got hacked???


But OP said he wasn't sure if he would buy again.

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#3384137 - 05/29/14 05:06 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Your stance has been attacking certain people posting anecdotal evidence, then wanting proof to back up their claims. Can you explain how someone proves a product works to your satisfaction, a product that you dislike? You are familiar with that concept aren't you?


Its a real pity that dnewton, one of the biggest contributors to this site, someone willing to share his scientific testing with this forum, someone who does statistical process quality control for a living, someone who works hard to advance our understanding of maintenance, has his name impugned over and over again.

If you're going to make comments and apply standards to others, be consistent in how and who you do it to. Eg what would you say to this if you were being consistent with your philosophy?

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
MMO is an old well proven product.

It doesn't fix broken parts. It can't clean out an entire engine that's heavily sludged. But it has its place in a large arsenal of products.

AutoRX is a nuclear bomb by comparison. That stuff is miraculous

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#3384176 - 05/29/14 05:48 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
How would somebody who registered at this website about two months ago know so much about a moderator here?

Know what that moderator does for a living apparently. I don't think dnewton3 was even mentioned in this post but if even if he was, how does a guy who has been here two months know so much about a moderator?

And you notice who he is attacking? Remember those three and add two more-Trav and Clevy. Let us see who Sam2000 decides to attack in the future.

And Auto-RX is a nuclear bomb in comparison? It is miraculous stuff? Prove it. You must have the proof to say that.

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#3384181 - 05/29/14 05:57 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
How would somebody who registered at this website about two months ago know so much about a moderator here?

Know what that moderator does for a living apparently. I don't think dnewton3 was even mentioned in this post but if even if he was, how does a guy who has been here two months know so much about a moderator?

And you notice who he is attacking? Remember those three and add two more-Trav and Clevy. Let us see who Sam2000 decides to attack in the future.

And Auto-RX is a nuclear bomb in comparison? It is miraculous stuff? Prove it. You must have the proof to say that.


Well said mystic.
How would a brand new member not only have intimate knowledge about long standing members and a mod,and seems to pick up old arguements that a many times banned member argued about,with the same guys the banned member argued with.
I'm not an investigator or anything but those coincidences add up to be more than just coincidences.
Mori back from the ban.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3384185 - 05/29/14 06:03 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
Now that my post count has risen, I'm very interested in the OP's updates. Keep 'em coming...


Edited by keesue (05/29/14 06:04 PM)
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3384211 - 05/29/14 06:36 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
How would somebody who registered at this website about two months ago know so much about a moderator here?


Well dnewton has an article on the front page of BITOG. And then when one reads forums and posts, you quite quickly see his posts as well as other experts and quite often the expertise is self evident. Then there is a feature to read threads started by individual members as well as threads they have commented on. Since I was interested in learning, it did not take long to find out relevant information. Additionally, you can search on google with key words such as a posters name and other keywords that interest you.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Know what that moderator does for a living apparently. I don't think dnewton3 was even mentioned in this post but if even if he was, how does a guy who has been here two months know so much about a moderator?


See above and also it did not take long to search your phrase "compression tester of unknown quality" and find the many many times you had used it before in relation to dnewton.

Originally Posted By: Mystic

And you notice who he is attacking? Remember those three and add two more-Trav and Clevy. Let us see who Sam2000 decides to attack in the future.


I am amazed that you characterize me as attacking you or anyone else when you not only took this Archoil thread off topic with your "compression tester of unknown quality" post, but have a history of attacking dnewton.

I haven't attacked anybody and you need to apologize for that false assertion.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
And Auto-RX is a nuclear bomb in comparison? It is miraculous stuff? Prove it. You must have the proof to say that.


Some quick searching shows that you said it fixed a seal leak that other products could not fix. It was quite easy to find your comments on this since you posted your positive experience many times.

Btw, it wasn't me who said Auto RX is miraculous, it was SteveSRT8. I haven't used it and don't expect to.

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#3384238 - 05/29/14 06:57 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Well thank you Sam2000. That is another thing that has been repeatedly said to me-that I have a habit of posting the same thing over and over again. Now let me think-which banned posters here have said stuff like that to me? I believe EType, FoxS, MarkStark, etc. Why is it Sam2000 that you say some of the same stuff those banned members have said? Like bringing up how some of us are apparently posting too much for your satisfaction. Let us talk about that.

I have a little over 7000 posts here. In over eleven years. You have close to 400 posts in two months. If you keep that up you will have about 2400 posts in one year. If you keep that up in eleven years you would have some 26000. Maybe you owe me an apology for saying that I have too many posts and I post too much? Oh, I am sorry. Maybe you were referring to demarpaint. I will have to check, but I don't think demarpaint has 26000 posts in the years he has been here either.

And if necessary I can copy some of the posts you have made here already and show to the moderators. Like how you twice said that you could never imagine me being a member of an intelligence organization. Am I impressing you a little bit more with my intelligence, Sam2000? I am 62 going on 63 but I can still think pretty clearly.

I have been repeatedly attacked here and told I am too old, that I have no friends and family, that I can't watch Fox News, the news program of my choice, and then given a lecture on diversity (LOL)! The posters who attacked me in those ways are all gone. Banned from this website.

If you attack me for my age I will notify the moderators immediately. Do you understand? Age discrimination is a serious offense. If you attack me because of what news channel I watch, I will notify the moderators immediately.

I have nothing further to say to you.

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#3384252 - 05/29/14 07:19 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Maybe you owe me an apology for saying that I have too many posts and I post too much? Oh, I am sorry. Maybe you were referring to demarpaint. I will have to check, but I don't think demarpaint has 26000 posts in the years he has been here either.


Ummm I don't owe you an apology because I never said you have too many posts.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Like how you twice said that you could never imagine me being a member of an intelligence organization. Am I impressing you a little bit more with my intelligence, Sam2000? I am 62 going on 63 but I can still think pretty clearly.


I am sure you are intelligent Mystic, but you seem a little paranoid. If I recall, someone accused you of being a spy and all I said was I couldn't imagine that to be true. How is defending you an attack?

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have been repeatedly attacked here and told I am too old, that I have no friends and family, that I can't watch Fox News, the news program of my choice


Well being attacked for your age is not good. I am retired myself. But I don't understand how being told you have no family and friends is an attack if its not true and I don't understand how someone telling you not to watch Fox News is an attack, if anything it seems like someone looking out for you. (Joke, I watch it myself occasionally)

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I have nothing further to say to you.


That suits me fine but I still request your apology for claiming I attacked you.

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#3384262 - 05/29/14 07:27 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Let it go.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3384275 - 05/29/14 07:34 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Like demarpaint I am done at this post. I have been proactive and I think the attacks that may well have been coming may not come right away.

But if somebody attacks me personally because of my age, because of what news program I watch (free country), or other personal reasons I will notify moderators.

There should be discussion at this website but not personal attacks.

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#3384280 - 05/29/14 07:40 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
Oh, my...

And now back to Archoil? Post count is coming up!!! (Back to the bushes)


Edited by keesue (05/29/14 07:41 PM)
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3384292 - 05/29/14 07:47 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think the attacks that may well have been coming may not come right away.


That's great to hear!

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#3384413 - 05/29/14 09:39 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8317
Loc: NorthEast
Can we get back to your Maserati/Ferrari/Bugati purchase? I forgot exactly which one you were contemplating but apparently you have not yet purchased it. Or were you putting us on?

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#3384704 - 05/30/14 08:33 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: keesue]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
As usual in additive threads, there isn't much to get back to. So far it has consisted of:

Quote:
it has been about 1000 miles and fuel mileage is now 19.3 mpg [was 19.1]

this is not scientific

engine seems smoother but that does not mean much

not sure if i would buy it again


Originally Posted By: keesue
And now back to Archoil?


What part of that are we getting back to?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3384842 - 05/30/14 12:04 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
The reports from the OP who used it and started the thread to share his experience? Assuming he would even want to update his thread, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't given the reception.


Edited by keesue (05/30/14 12:19 PM)
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3384878 - 05/30/14 12:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
Fireman1073, welcome to the forum and welcome to the foxhole. I appreciated you posting your initial experience and eager to hear your follow up, if any. There are some good posters here with a wealth of experience with additives so it has been a good resource for me over the years. I found a few products I use that work well.

All the best. I can send you my bullet-proof vest and Kevlar Helmut if you decide to post again. I have 66 posts in 7 years so I have kept my head down and don't need them. :-)

Back to clandestine mode...
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3384882 - 05/30/14 12:38 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
panthermike Offline


Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).

If I was truly going to run mpg numbers though, I wouldn't use this truck. I just don't drive it enough. Not sure I would want to try it in the Mazda or Honda, but would share my observations if I do. Trying Ceratec in the truck on the next OCI.
_________________________
'10 Mazda 6; Napa Syn 5w20 + LG Biotech 33K mi
'12 Civic; Napa Syn 0w20 + LG Biotech/Fram Ultra 34K mi
'77 F250 "Ol Yeller"; Delvac/RL Mix +AR9100


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#3384910 - 05/30/14 01:28 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: panthermike]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Can you tell us how that was measured?

Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3385091 - 05/30/14 05:58 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you tell us how that was measured?

Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).

256 color spectrorectumanalyzermoonbeamology with contrast device

still not good enough for you though smile

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#3385100 - 05/30/14 06:08 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you tell us how that was measured?

Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).

256 color spectrorectumanalyzermoonbeamology with contrast device

still not good enough for you though smile


Not good enough for me! You should have used a turboencabulator (or a retroencabulator for an n/a truck).
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3385233 - 05/30/14 08:44 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Well, I was only asking. I assumed you were using your annual emissions test results but I didn't know - hence my question.

By your response I can only conclude there was no method? One makes a claim so you expect there was a reason, but maybe not.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you tell us how that was measured?

Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).

256 color spectrorectumanalyzermoonbeamology with contrast device

still not good enough for you though smile
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

Top
#3385253 - 05/30/14 09:23 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, I was only asking. I assumed you were using your annual emissions test results but I didn't know - hence my question.

By your response I can only conclude there was no method? One makes a claim so you expect there was a reason, but maybe not.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Can you tell us how that was measured?

Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas). However, on all other claims I can't say I have noticed anything else. Truck runs well(as it did before), gets terrible mpg(as it did before).

256 color spectrorectumanalyzermoonbeamology with contrast device

still not good enough for you though smile


The one who made the claim hasn't responded yet smile

PA emission testing is either pass or fail. Both visual and functional inspection.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3385262 - 05/30/14 09:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Oops, you're right.

Rewind that.

Originally Posted By: Trajan
The one who made the claim hasn't responded yet smile

PA emission testing is either pass or fail. Both visual and functional inspection.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3385295 - 05/30/14 10:17 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Oops, you're right.

Rewind that.

Originally Posted By: Trajan
The one who made the claim hasn't responded yet smile

PA emission testing is either pass or fail. Both visual and functional inspection.


I wanted to add, that for my model year and where I live, the above is valid. (Just an OBD test and gas cap check and things like "Does he have cats installed?" The 1994 I once had was a bit more extensive. smile

http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/air/vei/tech.html for Arizona.


Edited by Trajan (05/30/14 10:18 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3385351 - 05/31/14 12:47 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: panthermike]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12961
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas).

Around 2002-2004 my LS400 barely passed the smog test, it was up to 90-95% of the max allowed. I bought some Redline SI1 fuel system cleaner and used a bottle every 6 months and the last bottle 2-3 weeks before the next smog test. It went from 90-95% to 5-15%.

Since then I used 1 bottle of Techron in all my cars 2-3 weeks before smog test.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

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#3385441 - 05/31/14 07:50 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: HTSS_TR]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: panthermike
I currently have the Archoil 9100 in my old truck. My reason for usage was to try and lower emission levels, which it did to some degree(with both 9100 in oil and 6200 in gas).

Around 2002-2004 my LS400 barely passed the smog test, it was up to 90-95% of the max allowed. I bought some Redline SI1 fuel system cleaner and used a bottle every 6 months and the last bottle 2-3 weeks before the next smog test. It went from 90-95% to 5-15%.

Since then I used 1 bottle of Techron in all my cars 2-3 weeks before smog test.


Hard to argue with that philosophy.

Something like PEA must be in Guaranteed to Pass. Although I've never used Guaranteed to Pass, I think CRC is a reputable company that makes an assortment of useful and popular automotive chemicals (e.g. Brake Cleaner). If you search the net for anecdotal evidence on G-T-P, it is quite positive.

--

Yes, 25-35% PEA in Guaranteed to Pass per the MSDS sheet. Despite the colorful hype and double-your-money-back guarantee, it's basically just a PEA additive.


Edited by dave5358 (05/31/14 07:55 AM)
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3385467 - 05/31/14 08:43 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
to the gutless skeptic who sits back in criticizm and never tries for himself but attacks others efforts..........

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

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#3385469 - 05/31/14 08:50 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
for those who care about the post subject

car is running great at 1500 miles into archoil treatment and now 19.5 mpg up from 19.1 no other changes

regular gas the whole time 110000 miles on the 08 subaru tribeca 3.6

the last 500 miles are mostly off highway

probably gonna try mos2 stuff next and post my observations for some to criticize

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#3385608 - 05/31/14 01:26 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
to the gutless skeptic who sits back in criticizm and never tries for himself but attacks others efforts..........

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.


Using archoil leads to nonsensical, emotional, diatribes. All the more reason not to use it.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3385791 - 05/31/14 07:15 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
Man, you're going to have to translate that. I have no idea what you're trying to put across.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3386097 - 06/01/14 07:48 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
don't sit back and criticize someone who tries a product and posts their results

try it for yourself then post your results

if you don't try, you will know neither victory nor defeat and be counted as "a cold and timid soul"

THE MAN IN THE ARENA
is an Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic"
delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910 by Theodore Rosevelt

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#3386130 - 06/01/14 08:52 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
kschachn Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2731
Loc: Upper Midwest
The discussion isn't about Archoil. The discussion is about the testing methodology and conclusions drawn from perceived results. This is the same discussion one would have whether it was this additive, or it was a particular brand of gasoline, or if it were anything else. How is a conclusion being drawn and by what method? Not all methods are equally valid.

So are you advocating that when one member of this board tests Archoil and his conclusion was that it made it possible for him to place his hand on the intake manifold, that everyone who has not used the product would at that point just say "Wow, OK since you tested the product it must work!" That is ridiculous.

I think people like to bring up the "you haven't used it" argument when the comments either don't agree with what they believe, or if they don't understand why there may be issues with the way conclusions were drawn.

As an aside, I have yet to see anyone criticize posters with positive comments and ask if they have used the product.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
don't sit back and criticize someone who tries a product and posts their results

try it for yourself then post your results

if you don't try, you will know neither victory nor defeat and be counted as "a cold and timid soul"

THE MAN IN THE ARENA
is an Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic"
delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910 by Theodore Rosevelt
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 308K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3386238 - 06/01/14 12:07 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The discussion isn't about Archoil. The discussion is about the testing methodology and conclusions drawn from perceived results. This is the same discussion one would have whether it was this additive, or it was a particular brand of gasoline, or if it were anything else. How is a conclusion being drawn and by what method? Not all methods are equally valid.

So are you advocating that when one member of this board tests Archoil and his conclusion was that it made it possible for him to place his hand on the intake manifold, that everyone who has not used the product would at that point just say "Wow, OK since you tested the product it must work!" That is ridiculous.

I think people like to bring up the "you haven't used it" argument when the comments either don't agree with what they believe, or if they don't understand why there may be issues with the way conclusions were drawn.

As an aside, I have yet to see anyone criticize posters with positive comments and ask if they have used the product.



Right on all counts.

Have a favorable thing to say about MMO, for example, You'll get "Good report!".

Later, say it didn't work as you thought it did, and that the use of another product fixed the returning problem for good, then you get a much different reaction from the same poster.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3386297 - 06/01/14 01:54 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The discussion isn't about Archoil. The discussion is about the testing methodology and conclusions drawn from perceived results. This is the same discussion one would have whether it was this additive, or it was a particular brand of gasoline, or if it were anything else. How is a conclusion being drawn and by what method? Not all methods are equally valid.

So are you advocating that when one member of this board tests Archoil and his conclusion was that it made it possible for him to place his hand on the intake manifold, that everyone who has not used the product would at that point just say "Wow, OK since you tested the product it must work!" That is ridiculous.

I think people like to bring up the "you haven't used it" argument when the comments either don't agree with what they believe, or if they don't understand why there may be issues with the way conclusions were drawn.

As an aside, I have yet to see anyone criticize posters with positive comments and ask if they have used the product.

Originally Posted By: fireman1073
don't sit back and criticize someone who tries a product and posts their results

try it for yourself then post your results

if you don't try, you will know neither victory nor defeat and be counted as "a cold and timid soul"

THE MAN IN THE ARENA
is an Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic"
delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910 by Theodore Rosevelt


this discussion IS about archoil because I started it about archoil

if you want to discuss testing methodology then start your own discussion on testing methodology

this is about my experience with archoil not my methods

i didn't draw conclusions, only stated facts which were--added archoil, drove 1000 miles and noted computer mileage before and after.

car runs smoother but that means nothing to me, just wondered if any other users experienced the same things as i

just thought i would share those facts and some people here drew conclusions and began to draw into question my testing methods

there were no testing methods, this was a trial not a test and certainly not scientific as i said previously

so discuss your testing methodology elsewhere and let those who simply want to share there experience do so without ridiculous scrutiny

try the product and let us know how you feel about it or post your findings and i will personally take in what you have to say about a product without calling in to question your level of expertise or schooling, training etc.

this is just information sharing not science class

i shared what my personal experience with this product is so you try it and share yours

i won't try to make you look stupid if you do not write a thesis with scientific data to back it up, i will just read what you have to say

if enough people have insignificant or no results i will be reluctant to try that product

thats all, it's that simple for me

oh as to the guy who could place his hand on a manifold to me would not be sufficent evidence but i would not belittle him, i would use that info to make my decision, to him it was substantial, to me insignificant

trying to make others look stupid does not make a person smart....just mean

if you have not used a product how can you either agree or disagree?

Steve

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#3386300 - 06/01/14 01:57 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
aw screw this i am out

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#3386304 - 06/01/14 02:00 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 20
Loc: ma
moderator please delete my profile

there is an idiot overload on here and no longer interested

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#3386361 - 06/01/14 03:40 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
The discussion isn't about Archoil. <snip>

No, this discussion is about Archoil. Just look at the subject. Quit going off-topic.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
I think people like to bring up the "you haven't used it" argument when the comments either don't agree with what they believe, or if they don't understand why there may be issues with the way conclusions were drawn.

The way conclusions were drawn or simply off-topic "methodology" drivel?

Someone might inquire if the poster had used the product to evaluate their response:
- You have used it and have experience you wish to share. Or,
- You haven't used it but have some expertise in the area which you can share. Or,
- You have not used it, but have an interest in the product and are trying to learn more about it. Or,
- You haven't used it, have no expertise or interest in the product or subject area and are simply hijacking the thread by some discussion of "methodology".

This seems like a fair preliminary inquiry. So, have you ever used Archoil? Please share your experience with this product.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
As an aside, I have yet to see anyone criticize posters with positive comments and ask if they have used the product.

As an aside, why would anyone post a positive comment who had not used the product, unless their comment made clear some other reason for their comment?

As an aside, why would anyone criticize a product they had not used or in which they had no interest?

As an aside, why would this person even join the discussion?
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3386368 - 06/01/14 03:48 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
jonny-b Offline


Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 1073
Loc: Norway
Have you all noticed, that Trajan and kschachn, are the ones who have NEVEr tried a product?

However, they ALWAYS seem to have all the the complete knowledge, in the world!!!

I really don't like this kind of slick behaviour!

I guess the moderators does.


Edited by jonny-b (06/01/14 03:48 PM)

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#3386374 - 06/01/14 03:54 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
jonny-b Offline


Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 1073
Loc: Norway
I would guess that this kind of of word-artistery, would come from a lawyer.

We all know that lawyers aren't much out on the road.
But, they are excellent with words!

What kind of useful knowledge do they have to share with us, at this forum?

Sitting in front of a PC, doesn't make you know-it-all!!!

However, they both have a firm belief in that!!


Edited by jonny-b (06/01/14 03:58 PM)

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#3386385 - 06/01/14 04:11 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
jonny-b Offline


Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 1073
Loc: Norway
I am rather surprised, that both Trajan and kschachn have been allowed to make all this kind of posting they have been doing.

Especially, if you take a look at how many of the products they discuss that they haven't tried!!!!

This should make some moderators sceptical, at least!

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#3386399 - 06/01/14 04:32 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: jonny-b]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7623
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
Have you all noticed, that Trajan and kschachn, are the ones who have NEVEr tried a product?

However, they ALWAYS seem to have all the the complete knowledge, in the world!!!

I really don't like this kind of slick behaviour!

I guess the moderators does.



Trajan always has something to say even though the experience with a product is lacking or non existent which then leaves it up to the reader to consider the source.
Good for a laugh anyway
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3386408 - 06/01/14 04:47 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Clevy]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
I was not going to come back to this post. But I have to change my mind. The same people over and over again take a post off subject. Somebody is talking about something and unless you are using the product they are promoting they will not let that person discuss the product they want to discuss in peace.

Trajan is against every product except for Auto-RX. Every product for him has a problem except for the one grand exception-the product he wants to promote.

Now I probably will never try this Archoil product. But the Oil Additives Section is supposed to be for the discussion of oil additives. If somebody wants to discuss Archoil, STP, MMO, Kreen, Auto-RX, or whatever, they should be allowed to do it.

The only way we can find out about these products is if guys are willing to discuss them. Most of these products or all of these products are never going to undergo some sort of scientific testing. Nobody could afford the scientific testing. We need both positive and negative opinions to figure out if a product is any good and maybe worth trying.

We apparently are going to lose a poster here for no good reason.

If somebody is against every product discussed except for the one product they believe in they should have a post of their own for their own product. Nobody is stopping anybody from having a post about Auto-RX. Or any other product that they want to discuss.

If a certain product is being discussed, whatever that product is, the post needs to stay on that product. And if somebody has not even tried the product how do they know if it is any good or not? If they have not tried a product their belief that it is no good is only their opinion.


Edited by Mystic (06/01/14 04:47 PM)

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#3386410 - 06/01/14 04:50 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 4005
Loc: out there
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
don't sit back and criticize someone who tries a product and posts their results

try it for yourself then post your results

if you don't try, you will know neither victory nor defeat and be counted as "a cold and timid soul"

THE MAN IN THE ARENA
is an Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic"
delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910 by Theodore Rosevelt


Also don't join a forum and from the first post , start hawking a product. Its one thing to be here a while and be part of the forum for multiple topics and then discuss your results with a product. I'm always leery of new posters such as you , who only post about one topic, A Product. It smells of spam. If you have been here a year then post your results for a product , then you will have more credibility.
_________________________
13 elantra 31k penplat0w20
03 chevy avalanche63k m1 0-30
02 saturnsc1 57k pennultra
01 saturnsc1 165k nextgenhm
93 ciera 65k 5w30napasyn
gz250 hdeo15w40

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#3386417 - 06/01/14 04:54 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 4005
Loc: out there
For example.
All posts made by fireman1073.
Title Forum Post Time
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Today at 03:00 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Today at 02:57 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Today at 02:54 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Today at 08:48 AM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Yesterday at 09:50 AM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Yesterday at 09:43 AM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/30/14 06:58 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 05:21 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 05:19 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 05:16 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 05:04 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 04:58 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 04:47 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 04:44 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 12:08 PM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 09:58 AM
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 09:55 AM
tried archoil Oil Additives 05/27/14 08:37 AM
_________________________
13 elantra 31k penplat0w20
03 chevy avalanche63k m1 0-30
02 saturnsc1 57k pennultra
01 saturnsc1 165k nextgenhm
93 ciera 65k 5w30napasyn
gz250 hdeo15w40

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#3386423 - 06/01/14 04:59 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: spasm3]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Well, I have seen stuff like that also. I remember a few times in the case of MMO and Kreen some brand new poster would come out of nowhere to put those products down.

But when it came to the majority of guys who had tested those products and been here for a while the overwhelming majority seemed to like those two products.

A lot of problems could be avoided if a post just stays on subject.

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#3386436 - 06/01/14 05:12 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: spasm3]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: spasm3
For example.
All posts made by fireman1073.
Title Forum Post Time
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives Today at 03:00 PM
<snip>
Re: tried archoil Oil Additives 05/29/14 09:55 AM
tried archoil Oil Additives 05/27/14 08:37 AM

All of his posts have been in this thread, so the titles will all be the same. Go back and read his first post (the first post in this thread). If he is really planning to 'make it' selling Archoil, I hope he keeps his day job.

It's pretty easy for any poster to appear obsessed with a particular product - particularly if he has to fend off the self-appointed anecdotal police and the methodology marshals. It might be more productive to look at the poster's claims, experiences and so on.

One odd thing I noticed about Archoil (from the net - not this thread) is that it has a following among owners of Ford diesel pick-ups and maybe other small Ford diesel vehicles. It prevents hard-starting in very cold weather due to sticky injectors. Apparently Ford's injectors just don't like the cold. Talk about a niche market.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3386445 - 06/01/14 05:29 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
keesue Offline


Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 98
Loc: San Francisco
I wonder how he would be considered a spammer for a product he said he would probably not use again? He got quite a welcome, eh? Back down in the foxhole...


Edited by keesue (06/01/14 05:31 PM)
_________________________
1981 Turbo Volvo with over 313,000 miles (bought new)
2001 S60-T5 Volvo

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#3386465 - 06/01/14 06:19 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: jonny-b]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
Have you all noticed, that Trajan and kschachn, are the ones who have NEVEr tried a product?


And you can prove it right?

Sorry, used it. Failed the hand on the manifold test on the last car.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3386474 - 06/01/14 06:34 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: jonny-b]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: jonny-b
I am rather surprised, that both Trajan and kschachn have been allowed to make all this kind of posting they have been doing.

Especially, if you take a look at how many of the products they discuss that they haven't tried!!!!

This should make some moderators sceptical, at least!



One would think is because they stay on topic and not make it about posters. So is the above your take on the product?
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3386565 - 06/01/14 09:39 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
If you go back through this thread you may be surprised to find who brought Auto RX into the discussion.

I just verified that it was first mentioned by Trav, then Mystic who all said it didn't work.

See post #3382370 and #3382626 both on May 27 2014.

So I just don't understand how Trajan can be accused of bringing it up to promote it. That was simply not how this thread developed.

And funnily enough, Trav and Mystic appear to agree that "there is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen ... doing anything"

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#3386588 - 06/01/14 10:06 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Incorrect Sam2000. Anybody can go back to the second page and find out that Trav merely added Auto-RX to the list of products that badtlc listed. And immediately after that when Trajan replied he stated that Auto-RX does work. Let me supply a quote for you in case you missed it.

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#3386590 - 06/01/14 10:07 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
Here you go Sam2000. You might have missed this from Trajan:

'Since there *is* concrete evidence that ARX does work, from Dnewton to the late Gary Allen to taxi tests to a thread by Artem, (remember that one, where you, demarpaint and Mystic jumped all over him because he said it worked better than kreen.), you "fix" is wrong.'

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#3386605 - 06/01/14 10:23 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Incorrect Sam2000. Anybody can go back to the second page and find out that Trav merely added Auto-RX to the list of products that badtlc listed. And immediately after that when Trajan replied he stated that Auto-RX does work. Let me supply a quote for you in case you missed it.


How can you say "incorrect" and then confirm that Trav was the first person to mention ARX?

How can you claim Trajan mentioned it first when you replied to Trav before Trajan with this?:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Thanks for fixing that Trav. It needed inclusion.


Are you saying that Trav "merely" mentioned it first and you "merely" mentioned it second but Trajan was really the person who brought it up first?

And how are we to interpret your statement and your credibility that this oil additive does not work when your OWN personal testimony was that it DID WORK!!!!!

How can you state it doesn't work when it actually worked for you? How can you say Trajan brought by ARX first when it is clear in this thread that Trav and you mentioned it before him? Unbelievable!

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#3386616 - 06/01/14 10:35 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
I have already pointed out to everybody Sam2000 how you are trying to attack certain people at this website. Just a few days ago you were going after certain people here saying that they have a high post count. The same individual who comes back again and again to this website uses those same attacks against the same people-over and over ago.

And since you are a brand new member at this website Sam2000 (supposedly), how do you know anything about what I said in the past about Auto-RX? I suppose you did all kind of research, huh?

I have never denied that I used to use Auto-RX. I have never denied that it did seem to stop a seal leak. But I stopped using it a long time ago when nobody seemed to be able to offer proof that it actually cleaned the interior of engines. I have not used Auto-RX in years.

And unless you are for some curious reason doing a massive amount of research on me, if you are really a new member here you know nothing about any of this.

And don't you dare challenge my credibility. Unless you can offer proof that I have been deceptive.

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#3386626 - 06/01/14 10:46 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
In any case, all of the problems in the Oil Additives Section could be solved if people were allowed to discuss products they have tried. The post should stick to the product being tested. Both positive and negative reviews have to be permitted of course. If somebody is discussing Archoil, then the post is about Archoil. If the post is about MMO, then the post is about MMO.

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#3386652 - 06/01/14 11:14 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
If that is truly your position, then you need to acknowledge that it was Trav, not Trajan, that brought up ARX.

If that is truly your position, then you need to acknowledge that you shouldn't have been the second person who mentioned ARX and shouldn't have endorsed Trav's action of adding it to a list of several oil additives since as you say this thread should be about Archoil.

Lastly, I will choose, as I see fit, to point out any inaccuracies in your statements and leave it up to others to make a judgement on your credibility. It is right to correct your assertion that Trajan brought up ARX while omitting the fact you and Trav brought it up first. It is right to point out that ARX worked for you and others who then make blanket statements that it does not work.

These are serious contradictions and misstatements and deserve to be pointed out.

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#3386674 - 06/02/14 12:30 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7567
Loc: Colorado
I am done dealing with you Sam2000. Don't address me again. You can put me on ignore.

I do not have to lie. There is the evidence from the past and I have eye witnesses. I did use Auto-RX in the past. I never denied that. I did observe that it seemed to stop a seal leak in a car I used to own. I stopped using Auto-RX years ago when nobody was able to prove that it actually cleaned the interiors of engines.

And you have no right to question my credibility. You have been here two months. Why would you know anything about me and Auto-RX? Unless you have done a huge amount of research. And why would you be researching me? In any case, your research would just make clear the truth of what I have said above. I don't have to lie. All I have to do is tell the simple truth.

And I have submitted some evidence to the moderators at this website for them to examine.

It should be clear to anybody that you target certain individuals here. Why would a new person do that? If you have been here only about two months you would have no reason to attack me. You would know nothing about me. And you would know nothing about demarpaint, Trav, Clevy, and Steve.

A few days ago you attacked members here because of the number of their posts and how often they posts. You are not a moderator. The owner of the website and the moderators can determine how many posts a person can have and how often they can post.

You are saying that I am making serious contradictions and misstatements. Those are serious accusations. As a about two month member here you would have no way to determine if I have made misstatements or not. You would have to do a profound amount of research on me and why would a two month new member be doing so much research on one individual here? And your research, if you had actually done it, would merely prove the truth of what I have said above.

So you have attacked me again saying I have made misstatements and contradictions. And I am reporting you again to the moderators, because those are false accusations. And, anybody who has been at this website for any length of time knows that what I have said above is the truth. I never denied that I had used Auto-RX. I did say that it seemed to seal a leak. And I stopped using it years ago when nobody could prove that it actually cleaned an engine.

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#3386698 - 06/02/14 02:58 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
You're going way overboard Mystic and accusing me of all sorts of things here.

I have said NOTHING about demarpaint and Clevy. Show me where I've talked about them in this thread.

As for Trav and Steve, I have only referred to what has been quoted or what they have posted in THIS thread.

Again, show me something different.

Accusing me of attacking them is a BASELESS accusation by you on me. You have ZERO evidence.

Accusing me of attacking you because I correct your statement is a DISTRACTION by you, the person who on the one hand says this thread should ONLY be about Archoil but early on in the thread is happy to claim another additive does not work even though it worked for you.

Threatening to get me banned by moderators to draw attention away from your contradictions is LOW.

If you have the power to do such a thing then my impression of this forum will fall mightily and I will be more than happy not to return.

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#3386722 - 06/02/14 05:06 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15279
Loc: Sunny Florida
Whew. Glad he got that off his chest!

Additives get a hard rap here, mainly because this forum is more insistent on proof than anecdotal evidence.

But I firmly believe that enough anecdotal experience should lead one to curiosity at least.

But when it degenerates to name calling and whining then no one wants to participate.

Thanks, Trajan, for mentioning me, or I would have missed all this informative banter!

Now back to the program...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
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#3386746 - 06/02/14 06:36 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33970
Loc: New Jersey
Going nowhere and getting complaints.

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