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#3383687 - 05/29/14 04:26 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9613
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
There is no concrete evidence showing ARX, MMO, Kreen, Archoil, Zmax, etc. doing anything yet you find supporters of each bickering about the others.

Fixed it for you.

Since there *is* concrete evidence that ARX does work, from Dnewton to the late Gary Allen to taxi tests to a thread by Artem, (remember that one, where you, demarpaint and Mystic jumped all over him because he said it worked better than kreen.), you "fix" is wrong.

I wondered how long it would be before you jumped in.
This has all been gone over before. I realize you are trying to bring the product into the limelight but forget it chief, you will have to argue with yourself.

My advise to anyone thinking of using this product is just search all the old threads on this stuff.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3383701 - 05/29/14 05:47 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Trajan, you make 2 good points there.

Firstly, we have some here who talk out of both sides of their face. Unfortunately, many of these people have a high post count and we see their posts way too often. Fortunately, we do have an ignore feature. And what's funny is that these posters don't seem to realize that if they post a lot but offer up inconsistent viewpoints, their credibility will disappear quicker and with more readers due to the increased frequency that their high postings on the same topic are read.

Secondly, most vehicle damage occurs over time, whether it is a poor design or repair, incorrect fluid, or unapproved additive. Thus is why the threshold for qualifying as a CPO vehicle is quite high.

So additive manufacturers rarely have any blame traced back to them. Just like the mechanic who once used the incorrect coolant or transmission fluid will likely get away with it.


Don't worry about a high post count.

As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,


Edited by Trajan (05/29/14 05:58 AM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3383705 - 05/29/14 06:07 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21079
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383782 - 05/29/14 08:55 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 19
Loc: ma
wow i only posted my results to possibly help the next person make a decision on purchasing this product

if 100 people try a product and their results are similar one might conclude that a product is good or bad

thats all this post was

i invite all to reread my original post

i never said i added this to my gas tank, it is an oil additive product

i never said it was one tank of fuel, i said it was a thousand miles

and i never claimed my increase in mileage was from the archoil

i said it was not scientific

if i cant post my results without being attacked or having the post go off on personality conflicts i dont see the purpose of posting here anymore

i thought this site was for people to have discussion on various things related to products and opinions about the products not attacks on posts and posters

jeesh

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#3383787 - 05/29/14 08:58 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 19
Loc: ma
no disrespect to this site

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#3383802 - 05/29/14 09:23 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: fireman1073
i have a 2008 subaru tribeca and in an effort to increase mileage (19.1 mpg) i put in archoil 9100
it has been about 1000 miles and fuel mileage is now 19.3 mpg


You wanted better mpg, you used it, and claim an increase. So just what conclusion is to be drawn from that other than giving credit to a product?
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3383865 - 05/29/14 10:53 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: fireman1073]
Vikas Online   content


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
If someone wants to post the mileage results, please post entire data e.g. last 30 fill-ups. We will then plot it and try to guess the demarcation point where the magical elixir was used.

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#3383873 - 05/29/14 11:08 AM Re: tried archoil [Re: Vikas]
fireman1073 Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 19
Loc: ma
trajan conclude what you want but it was not my conclusion only what the car computer reported

it was 1000 miles and what the dash computer estimated which by the way i have compared to my calculations and has been correct

again i simply poured in archoil and noted mileage then drove 1000 mixed miles and noted mileage thats all

i make no claims

you all can make your own conclusions and decide for yourselves whether to buy or not but please dont attack me or my findings

myself i choose not to buy the product again due to poor or no results

Steve

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#3383912 - 05/29/14 12:17 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Trajan]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7435
Loc: Colorado
Trajan said this: 'Don't worry about a high post count.'

'As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,'

This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.

And if a product was tested in a taxi cab fleet before I buy the product is it okay for me to ask the name of the taxi cab company, and the date the testing was done? Or is that too much to ask? Is the customer not allowed to ask any questions?

We also have a new guy at this website who is complaining about certain people having high post count rates. I find this very curious. Especially since certain posters who have been banned form this website were also complaining about high posts counts and certain other things against the SAME POSTERS HERE! Is that not a pattern? There have been several posters here who wound up being banned when they attacked people at this website and they seemed to be complaining about the same people here and they had the same complaints. One of those complaints being high post counts. What a strange coincidence.

And exactly what right does a new member here have to complain about how many posts a member here has? If the owner of the website and the moderators have a problem with how much a member is posting, I am sure they will let that member know. I don't think it is up to a new member to determine how much times a member can post here.

And we need to notice patterns of behavior here. If a series of new posters here have complained about the same group of posters, with the same complaints against those posters, and attacking the same group of posters here, that is a pattern. We have had a whole series of new posters here who have attacked the same group of members, such as demarpaint, Trav, me, and others. I personally have been attacked because of my age, because I watch FOX News, because of how many posts I have (about 7000 in over eleven years-I don't think that is excessive), and for various other reasons. When I became a member here as far as I know there were no age requirements and the last time I checked this was a free country, so I should be allowed to watch what news I want to watch. I am bringing all of this up before the attacks begin again. And when and if I again am told that I have no right to post here because I am too old, or I watch the wrong news channel, or I post too much, I am going to notify the moderators immediately.

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#3383938 - 05/29/14 12:59 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: Mystic]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2548
Loc: Upper Midwest
Wowie zowie.

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Trajan said this: 'Don't worry about a high post count.'

'As for "paying for testing..." One does not need the resources of a billionaire to do, say, a before /after compression test if you're going to claim that brand xyz cleaned your rings,'

This has been discussed over and over again and anybody who is interested can do some research. So I am not going into all of this again. But I will say this: One guy, using a compression tester of unknown quality, is NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOF! Science is much more strict than that. If we were going to try to use compression testing to prove or disprove that a product works, we would need very high quality compression testing equipment and a team of unbiased researchers to do the testing. Not one guy who believes in a product doing compression testing with a compression tester of unknown quality. Anybody here at this website who has taken college chemistry and physics classes (like I have) knows that science requires strict testing procedures.

And if a product was tested in a taxi cab fleet before I buy the product is it okay for me to ask the name of the taxi cab company, and the date the testing was done? Or is that too much to ask? Is the customer not allowed to ask any questions?

We also have a new guy at this website who is complaining about certain people having high post count rates. I find this very curious. Especially since certain posters who have been banned form this website were also complaining about high posts counts and certain other things against the SAME POSTERS HERE! Is that not a pattern? There have been several posters here who wound up being banned when they attacked people at this website and they seemed to be complaining about the same people here and they had the same complaints. One of those complaints being high post counts. What a strange coincidence.

And exactly what right does a new member here have to complain about how many posts a member here has? If the owner of the website and the moderators have a problem with how much a member is posting, I am sure they will let that member know. I don't think it is up to a new member to determine how much times a member can post here.

And we need to notice patterns of behavior here. If a series of new posters here have complained about the same group of posters, with the same complaints against those posters, and attacking the same group of posters here, that is a pattern. We have had a whole series of new posters here who have attacked the same group of members, such as demarpaint, Trav, me, and others. I personally have been attacked because of my age, because I watch FOX News, because of how many posts I have (about 7000 in over eleven years-I don't think that is excessive), and for various other reasons. When I became a member here as far as I know there were no age requirements and the last time I checked this was a free country, so I should be allowed to watch what news I want to watch. I am bringing all of this up before the attacks begin again. And when and if I again am told that I have no right to post here because I am too old, or I watch the wrong news channel, or I post too much, I am going to notify the moderators immediately.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 304K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3383950 - 05/29/14 01:07 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14748
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3383956 - 05/29/14 01:16 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: SteveSRT8]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21079
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan


As for the claim that all one has for oil adds is anecdotal evidence, that is patently false.


I'm not sure I fully understand you. Can you list the additives that have independent lab testing from credible labs that can be verified? Then post the results. Then we can check how many of our members used these products right here in the oil additive section and get a tally of satisfied users vs. unhappy users. We could see just how good independently tested products stack up in the real world.

I think it would be helpful to those members who don't believe in testimonials and want to use products that were tested by a lab in addition to the mfg's testing.


The silence...

Real lab testing is expensive and extremely unlikely for the small market, niche type products being spoken of here.


It appears he edited his post while I was replying, which is why what I quoted appears differently. I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3383963 - 05/29/14 01:28 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2548
Loc: Upper Midwest
Seriously, we don't even have that. Clevy's posts about using a product over many thousands of miles and resulting in an approximately 5% MPG increase are what I would call credible anecdotal evidence. For this product however, we haven't got squat. And I mean that in the nicest terms possible.

There's independently verified, peer-reviewed standard laboratory tests, then there's reliable anecdotal evidence, then there are posts about Archoil where it ranges from hand-to-the-manifold tests and spinning tires that won't stay planted on the pavement to idle speed increases that then reverse themselves. Come on. Throw in a few blurry cell phone pics where the OP also changed several other parameters of the test, and you get the sum total of "anecdotal evidence" for Archoil.

The company's own website doesn't help at all either. It's full of pseudo-scientific babble speech that (IMHO) is only intended to obfuscate the discussion. Their biggest claim about the Bell Labs thing doesn't even really connect to their product but they want you to believe it does. It doesn't. That right there is a big enough red flag for me to discredit anything else they try and say.

I'm going to stick with the OP's conclusion that it didn't do anything of note.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 304K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3383968 - 05/29/14 01:33 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: demarpaint]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7435
Loc: Colorado
Mostly all we have for any product here is anecdotal evidence. For the product he seems to be promoting there was compression testing allegedly done by one guy who is a proponent of that product and they make some various others claims, such as testing in a taxi fleet.

But some products are different than other products. We know that Kano Labs makes Kreen. We know that Lubegard makes various products. We know that Turtle Wax makes MMO. We know that Chevron makes Technron. I for one would be more inclined to buy products from known companies.

Now just because a company is a known company does not mean the products it makes are great. STP was fined I think twice by the FTC for false advertising. Duralube was fined. Slick50 was fined. But none of the companies I have listed above have been fined as far as I know.

If people were not allowed to discuss products here in the Oil Additives Section where there is just anecdotal evidence, there would be few products even discussed here. But on the other hand, I would assume that companies like Kano Labs, Lubegard, Chevron and so forth have done some kind of testing.

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#3383972 - 05/29/14 01:38 PM Re: tried archoil [Re: kschachn]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21079
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Seriously, we don't even have that. Clevy's posts about using a product over many thousands of miles and resulting in an approximately 5% MPG increase are what I would call credible anecdotal evidence. For this product however, we haven't got squat. And I mean that in the nicest terms possible.

There's independently verified, peer-reviewed standard laboratory tests, then there's reliable anecdotal evidence, then there are posts about Archoil where it ranges from hand-to-the-manifold tests and spinning tires that won't stay planted on the pavement to idle speed increases that then reverse themselves. Come on. Throw in a few blurry cell phone pics where the OP also changed several other parameters of the test, and you get the sum total of "anecdotal evidence" for Archoil.

The company's own website doesn't help at all either. It's full of pseudo-scientific babble speech that (IMHO) is only intended to obfuscate the discussion. Their biggest claim about the Bell Labs thing doesn't even really connect to their product but they want you to believe it does. It doesn't. That right there is a big enough red flag for me to discredit anything else they try and say.

I'm going to stick with the OP's conclusion that it didn't do anything of note.

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I think he realized expenses associated with the proper testing some members crave, and the unlikely chance of ever seeing any legit testing results. Sometimes all we have is anecdotal evidence to base our decisions on.


I agree. My point here is anytime we get on these topics its the same comments from the same people, myself included. My comments about the testing etc. remain the same though.

In this case the anecdotal evidence is steering me away from the product. That doesn't make the OP wrong or a bad person for sharing though.


Edited by demarpaint (05/29/14 01:41 PM)
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