Brake Issue??

[babyivan]

So, I flushed my brakes the other day (fluid was black, yuck) and while it was being done, my brother got overzealous with his pumping and the reservoir got too low and air started coming out of the bleed valve that I was working on (driver rear). I quickly realized it and ran over and filled the reservoir back up and kept bleeding that wheel until fluid started coming back out.

I took it for a ride and the brakes feel fine, in fact the pedal feels firmer than it ever has and I can lock them up now pretty easy (maybe HARD reverse stops over-adjusted the rear shoes), which I like.
Just to be sure, I went ahead and re-bled my brakes just to be sure no residual air is in the system.

Well, the "issue" I'm having is that the wheel that I ran out of fluid with (driver side rear), never quite bleeds right, IMO.
When I first crack the bleeder, it spits a TINY bit and then flows smooth; it does this no matter how many times I manual bleed (have helper pump and hold while I crack the bleeder and have the helper follow through with the pedal and then hold it down while I tighten the valve back up).

The other bleeders don't do that, they flow smooth at first crack of the bleeder. The thing is, I think Ive encountered bleeders that always spit a little before they flow smooth on air-FREE systems (I just can't 100% remember this for sure, LOL).

I'm thinkin' its' from the initial pressure release of the valve when cracking, because it only happens when I open it slow; a fast open seems to not create the spit.

So, the question is, is a little spit normal on some bleeders OR do I have constant air in the line (braking + pedal feel tells me no, also NO loss in fluid is occurring and NO pedal drop and NO spongyness)?

If there is air, I don't see how it can constantly be there if I am purging it (spitting it out, if that's the case). I understand if there's air TRAPPED that I cant get out, but if that was the case and the spitting is in fact air purging, at some point the spitting/purging should stop.

I changed the bleeder valve just to be sure that wasn't the issue.

My biggest fear is that I have a constant of sucking in air somewhere, but that sounds impossible, seeing as the reservoir is filled up on the re-bleeds.

I also don't want to mess with bleeding the master cylinder (bench bleed or otherwise) if I don't really have a problem.

Any insights, past experiences?

TIA

FYI, my car is an 87 Cutlass Ciera. I have rear drums and JA2 (Heavey duty) brakes. NO ABS.

 

[tomcat27]

If the brakes work fine with solid pedal feel, you are probably fine.

 

[eljefino]

You've done good. That car only has one line and one rubber hose to the rear axle, so if you had a problem the Pass rear would be spitting too.

JA2, to split hairs, is medium duty brakes, brought about by the 5x114 lug pattern. If you had an 82 ish ciera with 5x100 lugs you'd have the light duty brakes.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27
If the brakes work fine with solid pedal feel, you are probably fine.

I think so too.

I had a friend (a mechanic) take it for a drive and tell me the pedal feels good.
But then I let my idiot brother drive it and he's like, "your pedal travels too far before the brakes kick in, but they do work good once they grab and the pedal gets hard".
Thing is, the pedal actually got better since the flush; he just doesn't know what he's talking about, LOL.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
You've done good. That car only has one line and one rubber hose to the rear axle, so if you had a problem the Pass rear would be spitting too.


I thought of that and wish that were true, but the MC has a built in proportioning valve. It's got 4 ports coming off of the MC going to EACH wheel.

 

[eljefino]

^ huh, ok. Memories of my 92 are fading.

Great car.

 

[NHGUY]

I remember the old days,and those weirdo master cylinders were nothing but trouble.Hard to bleed new ones too,usually leading to "defective" returns.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
^ huh, ok. Memories of my 92 are fading.

Great car.


fading like brakes on a hot summer day? hehe
They are great cars for sure.

It's split diagonal dual master cylinder, the front port has the front driver/rear pass and the back port has the front pass/rear driver.

But I do think you are onto something, because if it was at the MC, I would also get air at the front pass. wheel since it shares a port with it. And if it was at the line, it wouldve been gone long ago with all the bleeding I did.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
I remember the old days,and those weirdo master cylinders were nothing but trouble.Hard to bleed new ones too,usually leading to "defective" returns.


They are not bad at all to bleed.

Even though they recommend doing two at a time on the four line ones, I would just buy an extra bench bleed kit and have all four hook ups going into the reservoir at the same time while actuating the piston to get the air out.

 

[yonyon]

Whenever possible, bleed brakes with the car level. If a car is leaning, especially if it's leaning to a side, then sometimes it can be very difficult to get the last of the air out. Gravity is a [censored].

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: yonyon
Whenever possible, bleed brakes with the car level. If a car is leaning, especially if it's leaning to a side, then sometimes it can be very difficult to get the last of the air out. Gravity is a [censored].


yup, the ground was level. I don't have to take my wheels off to bleed the brakes on my car, so no need to Jack it up.

My car is so friggin easy to work on compared to the new stuff

 

[aquariuscsm]

From looking at your sig,your Ciera has the 3800? I didn't know they came with those engines,I bet that's a lot of engine for a car that size,I bet it has a ton of power!

 

[yvon_la]

might be length of tube,usually on big truck length and size of hose play a huge role ,I assume its the same for car,might be one hose that isn't the proper size or proper length!

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
From looking at your sig,your Ciera has the 3800? I didn't know they came with those engines,I bet that's a lot of engine for a car that size,I bet it has a ton of power!
Yep, the pre-3800 actually. Same as the Grand national (minus the turbo)
It was a less common option, I didnt know about these 86-88 Cieras/Centurys before I bought one myself.

Stock photo, but that's my engine, good ole Buick 231!

The car has lots of torque and the 4 speed trans makes good use of it's power.
My brother has a 2000 Lesabre that has the series II 3800 and my car feels much faster than his.

The car is a blast to drive actually, it's got low miles and FE2 suspension; which is firm but not too firm. I also put rear kyb shocks (the better 'Made in Japan' silver ones) and new struts up front.

I also installed an extra trans cooler. Next week I'm doing the A/C, it still had r12, but had since leaked out! gonna flush, new condenser, compressor, drier/accumulator and orifice tube (rockcauto)

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: babyivan
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
From looking at your sig,your Ciera has the 3800? I didn't know they came with those engines,I bet that's a lot of engine for a car that size,I bet it has a ton of power!
Yep, the pre-3800 actually. Same as the Grand national (minus the turbo)
It was a less common option, I didnt know about these 86-88 Cieras/Centurys before I bought one myself.

Stock photo, but that's my engine, good ole Buick 231!

The car has lots of torque and the 4 speed trans makes good use of it's power.
My brother has a 2000 Lesabre that has the series II 3800 and my car feels much faster than his.

The car is a blast to drive actually, it's got low miles and FE2 suspension; which is firm but not too firm. I also put rear kyb shocks (the better 'Made in Japan' silver ones) and new struts up front.

I also installed an extra trans cooler. Next week I'm doing the A/C, it still had r12, but had since leaked out! gonna flush, new condenser, compressor, drier/accumulator and orifice tube (rockcauto)



That's a beautiful engine!! The best version of the 3800 imo. The series II and III just don't seem to be as strong. My gf's '98 Olds 88 had the series II and it didn't seem like near the engine my '87 Olds Trofeo had,which looked exactly like yours. One of the best engines ever made imo.

 

[Vikas]

If you pump the brakes, does the pedal engages higher? If so, and if the rears are drums, then they need to be adjusted.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
If you pump the brakes, does the pedal engages higher? If so, and if the rears are drums, then they need to be adjusted.

I don't understand your question, the pedal firms up if I pump them with the car off and with the car running operation is normal with pumping.

I didn't change out the rear drum shoes. I don't see how they would need to be adjusted since they have been self adjusting from the previous shoe change and adjustment I did at that time.

 

[babyivan]

I figured it out actually...

So the fluid that is spit out at the cracking of the valve is the aerated fluid and after that: the smooth flowing fluid, is AIR-FREE; hence the reason all is well with the brakes post bleed!

I guess I will have to revamp my 2 man bleeding procedure from now on