oil filter flow vs filtration

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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So back to my point, wouldn't a more restrictive flow, provided you have a good ADBV, have a possible negative effect?

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Just to reiterate....(yes, painful redundency)

As long as your pump isn't in relief (which will probably be up for debate as to how often this occurs ) there is no such thing as a modified flow. It doesn't matter if you squish the stuff through a pinhole. It will just travel faster (NOTE THE FIRST 8 WORDS). Beyond that, I don't think that, in 99% of the cases that it is open (the pump relief), that you're in any trouble either. Beyond "beyond that", I truly doubt that the difference between a dense media and a less dense media amounts to much in the mix. That is, it would be reasonable to assume that a dense media would resemble a less dense media at some point in it's service. I'm saying that this "span", even if different between the two, is not enough to upset anything. Naturally, as in all things, conditions and restrictions apply.

So, get the highest quality filter with the finest media that is spec'd for your engine and be worry free about "flow restrictions". For added peace of mind (to follow contemporary lubrication dogma) use a viscosity of oil suitable for your climate needs that fall within your manufacturer's spec's for your vehicle.

 

[Winston]

Gary,

Remember that James main concern is with valve noise at cold startup. That is one of the conditions where the oil pump bypass valve may be open (remember too, that you have only measured oil pressures on your engine). Thus, at cold startup, a more restrictive filter may result in less flow to the engine.

I am stil intrigued by the possible differences between synthetic and paper filter media during initial oil flow.

 

[Filter guy]

Well I may be off base here but I think we have two different conversations going on about the oil draining out of a filter.

True, the Anti-drain prevents oil from draining back into the pan when you shut the engine off. True, if it fails the oil drains back through the inlet holes.

Now when you remove the filter and turn it upside down, the oil shouldn't come out of the center tube area to any great degree. Which would mean through the media and the holes in the center tube. If oil leaks past the anti-drain and comes out the inlet holes, that's a different deal.

If you place the filter on a flat surface the gasket would "reseal" the filter and you shouldn't have a pool of oil when you lift the filter up.

If you place the filter over a drain drum, then air can get inside the filter. This can displace the oil over time. The better the anti-drain the longer it would take to drain the residual oil out. Which is why the Environmental rules are to hot oil drain a filter for 24 hours before you can dispose of it in a land fill.


So for those wondering why oil came out of a filter with an anti-drain after you took it off, I think that should explain it.

But maybe not..

 

[Filter guy]

James:

So you put on a Mobil 1 filter and the noise went away.

As I stated above from my experience the difference in pressure drop with a new element be it paper or synthetic is 1 PSID or less.

Now having said that there are some elements that are straight cellulose which might be closer to a 2PSID for a new filter.

But t would seem strange to me that a 1 PSID difference would "solve" the problem your having/had. Because there is a by-pass valve involved that would open should the restriction across the element reach the opening setting.


So just for fun, go back to the Denso one next time and see if the problem is still there.

 

[Gary Allan]

I would venture to say that a great deal of instant rattling is due to poor ADBV.

..but let me get your take on this Winston..

Anyone with a gauge (a real one) should be able to determine whether or not they are in bypass (edit, I meant relief) ..or are suffering effects of being in bypass (ditto) ..at virtually any point in the OCI. If you've got a higher initial PSI upon start up ..that you NEVER again reach after warm up, regardless of speed ..that may or may not be bypass setting...but if it's not ..than any pressure below it is assured to also be below that setting. If your engine delivers any lower pressure after that start up pressure ..it's not in pressure relief ..therefore ..the filter is a non-issue due to immutable flow.

Basically most pressure senders/sensors are downstream of the media. So at EVERY SINGLE START UP you should be able to observe cold pressure (and one would think would have the ability to integrate what is typical ..and what is not).

The exception to this would be Fords with idiot lights with needles ..or any other car that has a numb system like that.

[ May 27, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[gulledge]

In the book "How to select a motor oil for your car and truck" the author states that a cold start is equal to about 500 highway miles as far as engine wear is concerned. Also, since most people agree that most engine wear occurs at start up and during the warm up (next 10 min), oil being to all parts of the engine as quickly as possible could greatly reduce wear at the during this critical time. I'm not tring to beat this issue to death, just determine where and when the wear is occuring most, and get the best filter to combat this. We can all see the filtration results from the j1858 tests, but I'm concerned that we may not be seeing the whole picture. Any thoughts?

 

[steveh]

I am a new member after reading all of the posts I still can't decide if i should keep using the oversize purolator or use the oversize pure one.been using the pL3001 the book says to use the PL14670.

 

[gulledge]

Steveh, I can understand the problem. Most people would say use the PureOne, but look at the flow rates of the two at www.oilfilterstudy.com and you'll see a big difference in the flow rates. I personally don't know which is better for engine wear. I like Mobil 1 filters becase of the filtration and the flow, but some think the cost is not worth it. However I don't think $5 more is that big of a deal. I know that either of the filters you are using are good.

 

[Filter guy]

James:

I'm not sure in this forum one will get a definitive answer.

The theory is, the better you do at filtering the longer the engine will last. So one would expect the longer you use more efficient media the better it is for your engine provided you follow all the necessary maintenance for your engine.

You probably knew that but I don't know where you're going to get the proof you require. Other than through the oil drain intervals becoming longer per some OEM's, the longer years/mileage new car warranties have become over the years, and that filters have lead/followed because they've become more efficient at the OEM level.

If the OEM's didn't have better filtration as their engine tolerances have become tighter over the years, could they extend their drain intervals or their mileage under which the new car warranty remains in effect?

Then you have the aftermarket filters which can be even more efficient than their OEM counterparts. If it's good for the OEM's, it should be better for you if you choose something even better than what is on the engine...

 

[Gary Allan]

Most of your wear is from ill fitting parts. The duration of warm up is anywhere from 13-18 miles and about 20 minutes. It's not how long it takes your coolant to reach temp. That may make your fuel economy better..but that can't stop a half saturated (expanded) piston skirt from exerting uneven force on the piston ring/cylinder walls.


I would suggest you go with whatever makes you feel secure in how you are caring for your engine. If you are like many, some of your concepts and perceptions will be altered over time if you hang out long enough.

 

[rg144]

quote:

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Originally posted by wavinwayne:
I left an M1-205 filter sitting upside down for a week on my oil drain pan, trying to get the oil out before I cut it open. When I finally cut it open, it was full of oil. There was no blockage or restriction in the filter media; it was simply the ADBV doing it's job.

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I never used a M1, but all my filters will drain through the media. You set it down, watch through the center hole (center hole up that is), each minute will give you an inch of oil, empty it and do it again like 4 times. But that's non-synthetic oil in a cheap filter.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

sorry wavinwane. the adbv has nothing to do with an upsidedownfilter. think about it. the left over oil is between the outside of the can and the inside filter media. if oil is able to seep out of frams media but not through the m1 filter what does that tell you about the m1 filter media, that it is one way or it is blocking the oil from passing by. since it can't be one way, then it is causing a restriction. that is why I no longer use a m1 filter, as it filters good, but I want oil in my bearings.

that also substanuatings my findings in my oil analsys with the different filters.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000211;p=1

there is 5 pages on this topic and each on has different oil anlysis with different things done each time. you'll have to read the whole thing and see what effected what. I even ran the engine with out a filter just to show what the filter does to the oil.

 

[Winston]

Gary,

I understand what you are saying. However, most cars do not have an oil pressure gauge. And even if they did, I still think that many engines are in bypass mode during start up. Lets assume he is in bypass during starup. It is possible, no?

Many, many cars have this start-up noise problem. Most people try a bunch of different things and never solve the problem. This is the first guy that I have heard that has solved it with a Synthetic media filter. I am not sure that is what solved the problem. But, this is one of the first times I have heard that ANYTHING has solved the problem. As far as the ADBV solving the problem. I do not think so. Usually this noise lasts for a couple of minutes. The ADBV only would affect the first couple seconds of the engine startup noise. It is possible that synthetic media acts differently during startup because of surface tension of the media etc. (I am out on a a limb here). Maybe it is the bypass setting of the filter tha solved the problem. I would love to hear what happens when he puts a Wix on his car.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Lets assume he is in bypass during starup. It is possible, no?

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Do you mean relief?? or bypass? (I use them in the wrong place at times).

edit to address your full post, Winston

Well, I'm usure what you're saying here. Are we assuming a "given" that he's in bypass at startup for supposition's sake? Is it possible? Sure, anything is possilbe. Should we assume anything beyond a manipulated "what if" ..no. That is, we shouldn't give this "assumption" any further weight in validity in the absense of bona fide proof.

Start up noise, traditionally, is that first few seconds. Anything beyond that has to be viewed as a design or mechanical defect that you are compensating for. This can hardly be viewed as (would canon be an appropriate term?) doctrine. This is a matter of "I have this situation ..and this appeared to solve it". We don't know the situtation ..only what appeared to relieve it. There are countless apparent cause and effects that cirucumvent much intermediate terrain in forming conclusions.

end edit

If we're talking filter bypass ...nope. I don't think so. Very rare in the early life of a filter. Even with a dense media like PureOne. This should not be altered by your oil volume or this or that. That is, in all cases, a filter should be a filter and flow should be flow. If my testing progresses like it has ...the filter would merely advance in PSID until it is bypassing oil in a progressive manner. This issue/feature, standing alone, won't alter flow.

As far as oil pumps routinely going into relief? I can't see anything to make me believe this is so ..and that's in spite of having a vehicle with an aftermarket high volume pump that is in relief 100% of the time it is off idle hot. Or rather the only time it's not in relief is hot idle. My oil pressure is peaked 100% of the time. It is higher than it was without the HV oil pump. So my flow may vary ..but it always higher than it was stock.

Ugly3 has rhetoric from an oil pump manufacturer that asserts that it's in relief above 3000 rpm ..but if any user of the pump isn't at his cold peak PSI @ 3000 rpm ...he ain't in relief.

My jeeps have a factory relief of 75 ..but a stock peak pressure of 42-45. They should never see relief ...ever ...unless I use 70 weight oil @-40

The relief's primary feature in most engines is not to limit oil flow per se~. It's to limit the max stress that they see. The non-traditional crank driven oil pumps don't have as many issues with this as our disappearing distributor driven types. This could surely alter the criteria of where a manufacturer sets a relief ..and the volume that they "dial in" for a given rpm.


(now these next two paragraphs may appear in conflict ..but think "outcomes")
I'm sure someone could come up with a valid reason for it ..but I'm hard pressed to think of why an OEM manufacturer would design a lubrication system that routinely went into unpredictible territory by going into relief other than as a "fringe" limiting factor. It's a safety ..a, by definition, limit. To think that it's a common occurance would be hard for me to understand.

Now an OEM could, as with my HV installation, just put in an over sized pump and let it be perpetually in relief. This would work. The user, with or without a gauge would have a constant pressure that would translate to adaquate flow under all circumstances. That is, 25 psi (corresponding to a flow spec) post filter would be adaquate ..regulate it to 40 100% of the time ...regardless of conditions ..more flow is present post filter than is needed 24/7/365. Again, while flow may be altered ..where can harm come from it? Even reliefs have limits to the amount that they can shunt in extreme situation. If it's too cold my HV oil pump will produce in excess of 58psi briefly.

Again ..that wouldn't mean that relief operations are a "bad thing".

No matter what road I take on this ..I come to the same basic location. It doesn't take me in another direction. I'm open for going elsewhere ..but I've go bona fide evidence that's dragging me in this direction and would need/like to see qualitative and authoritative evidence that not only asserted otherwise ..it would also have to "well, yes, you're right ..but.." ..otherwise ...it's as bogus (subjectively slanted) as some appear to view some of my views (see what I mean?).

[ May 28, 2005, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[gulledge]

If you look at the pressure drops on the filters that Bob did in his homemade test, there are big pressure drops in some densly packed filters like the Fram TG and others. The bypass valve is not open on these are they, or we would not be seeing such a pressure drop. Again, Terry Dyson is the person who suggested the tapping noise could might be helped by a less restrictive filter. Remember that the wear I'm taking about here is top end also, and I'm just wondering if oil that may have leaked down over the night takes longer to reach upper end parts during start-up depending on the flow rates of different media (provided the ADBV is closed). Just to explain, the noise was the typical tapping (sewing machine sound) that many Honda's seen to have for the first few minutes. The filter did cure the problem, and Terry specifically mentioned "restrictive filter" as a potential problem. The bypass setting could have solved the problem, as Winston stated" but do we know that the ADBV is open aleays at startup. I would say "NO" because of the oil flow tests that Bob did. If they were in fact open, why would we see such great pressure drops from many of the filters? If the ADBV was open, wouldn't there be very little drop? Thanks

 

[Gary Allan]

gulledge

Bob's test was an outstanding breakthrough in "view". To my knowledge no one has ever done anything like it anywhere that anyone can view the data. The advantage that we have ...is that we followed the "trailblazer". We can nitpick and critique the path he chose and glean MORE out of it ...simply because he cleared much of the terrain before we made step ONE. It's far easier to go beyond. Each step is further and more informed.

You're still having difficultly understanding "flow" and apparent pressure and how they work with an oil pump/filter.

I will not dispute Terry's recomendation or rational for it. You've got a situation that is not obviously apparent in cause and can only treat it symptomatically.

 

[haley10]

The ADBV must be the factor on my old 87 Mitsu engine. Mobil 1 or Pure 1 = no noise. Wix, Fram, STP, Bosch... all seem to rattle. I've tried a lot of different filters on it and settled on the Pure 1 for not too expensive and an ADBV that seems to work well.

 

[gulledge]

Gary,
Tell me what I'm not understanding about flow with this situation. Just as Haley10 just said; he has had varios rattles with different oil filters also. Isn't this due most likely to flow characteristics. What else could be causing his noise and mine to stop depending on filter choices, if not flow. If it rattled with every filter that could be anything, but oil seems to be providing protection better (faster?) with one filter over another? Can we assume that the ADBV is closed in Bobs filers tests simply due to very large pressure drops in some filters? If we can, the ADBV's are not the cause of the start-up engeine rattles and ticking, right? What do you think? Thanks

 

[Gary Allan]

Aside from a bad ADBV (which Haley10 affirms)..IMHO a filter has little do with "flow" in 99% of normal operations. If you were in Canada ..@-40 with dino weight oil ..then sure (I'm stretching this here for example).

quote:

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Tell me what I'm not understanding about flow with this situation.

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Let me ask you some questions:

Do you have a pressure gauge that actually indicates different pressures (the numbers aren't important = just that it isn't an idiot light with a needle)?

When does your rattle "go away" with filters that make the noise occur?

Please read post # 8 on this page especially paragraphs 5&6 Bob's oil filter study Take in posts 9&10 as well.

With those questions answered and you reading that ..we may get a little further along here.

 

[Filter guy]

Gulledge

Just out of curiosity what part number were you using and what part number did you switch to? Do you have the specs for those, especially the by-pass settings?

I'm wondering if the OEM by-pass valve had such a high opening PSID setting before it opened that , that might cause the lower flow of oil. ( and you're knocking sound) Then when you switch to an aftermarket filter, the by-pass in it opens at a lower setting which allows a higher volume of flow at a more constant basis.
If i'm making myself clear.