Pontiac 301 Turbo Oil ???????

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
But the slightly wilder flat tappet cam makes me want to recommend high-zddp oils, which do not exist in modern full-synthetic 30-weights.

They do if one wishes to look hard enough. There is VR1 synthetic, RP HPS, and Red Line. That's ignoring the most expensive boutiques and dedicated race oils.


VR1 synthetic only has 1000 ppm-worth of zddp in the 30-weights.
RP HPS has 1800 ppm, IIRC. I think there is a VOA on it. I'm not an RP oil fan, but many people here like their oils with the Synerlec additive, which is in HPS. But that is not the RP you see everyday in AutoZone.
And of course RedLine street oils; they have 1200 ppm, so would be good. But I was trying to avoid boutique recommendations in my post. It seemed like the OP wanted readily available oils.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I have read that as long as zddp content is held to 1400 ppm of Phosphorous or less, corrosion is not a problem.

So how much additive is required in each oil to stay under that 1400ppm figure?



The ZDDPlus website has a page showing how much of their additive to use to get a desired concentration.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
it is being converted to Fuel Injection using MSD Atomic EFI.


These were originally a 'blow through' carbed setup, like the early (NOT the LATER GN/GNX/T-Types) Buick Regal Turbos??

I never knew that, and always thought they were an early throttle body injection setup.

 

[chainblu]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
Engine is being rebuilt back to stock specs with a slight flat tappet cam upgrade


He's talking about a mild cam upgrade for a turbo engine, not a full race solid lifter cam. While I'm sure the Defy would have plenty of zinc, I'm leaning towards the Rotella 10w30 because of the turbo.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: rob6773
That was one of the first engines to have a stern warning to use a specific grade, 10W-30. I think Rotella T5 would be the obvious choice.

No, the Turbo had a stern warning to use SAE30 monograde. The 10w30 of the 1970s and 1980s would either shear too much, or coke up in the turbo bearings.

Modern conventional or synblend 10w30 might not have that problem, synthetic 10w30 would absolutely avoid the problem.

 

[Randy_R]

I like VR1 full synthetic 10W-30 for this application also. Brad Penn warns about ZDDP in cars with catalytic converters. Once the cam is broken in, how much zinc do you need?

 

[JasonC]

Im using a MSD Distributor and Blaster 3 coil.



Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
I had a 1980 non-turbo 301 (4.9L) that could not get out of its own way so I pulled it and installed a 455 that definitely changed its perspective. If memory serves, there were several companies making "turbo shutdown oilers" for these cars (which had turbos more appropriately sized for a V-6) to prevent bearing coking. I would use something like M1 0W-40 or Rotella T6 5W-40 (synthetic in any case) and would be sure to allow the engine to idle for a few minutes if it was ran hard prior to shutdown. You may want to look at an "oiler" to aid in bearing lubrication, but then again, if the bearings lasted this long...

PS...what ignition system are you going to use?

 

[JasonC]

The cam that is going in is only a .425 lift 252 duration cam.


Originally Posted By: chainblu
Originally Posted By: JasonC
Engine is being rebuilt back to stock specs with a slight flat tappet cam upgrade


He's talking about a mild cam upgrade for a turbo engine, not a full race solid lifter cam. While I'm sure the Defy would have plenty of zinc, I'm leaning towards the Rotella 10w30 because of the turbo.

 

[JasonC]

It will still be a blow through setup as that is compatible with Atomic EFI.


Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: JasonC
it is being converted to Fuel Injection using MSD Atomic EFI.


These were originally a 'blow through' carbed setup, like the early (NOT the LATER GN/GNX/T-Types) Buick Regal Turbos??

I never knew that, and always thought they were an early throttle body injection setup.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
VR1 synthetic only has 1000 ppm-worth of zddp in the 30-weights.

I hadn't seen a VOA or any other data, but that's a lot lower than I thought it would be! Valvoline indicates they use some sort of "special" ZDDP in their MaxLife at least, allowing them to use less. Perhaps it extends to other products, including VR1.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
RP HPS has 1800 ppm, IIRC. I think there is a VOA on it. I'm not an RP oil fan, but many people here like their oils with the Synerlec additive, which is in HPS.

HPS is readily available on the shelf at one of my suppliers, and prominently displayed.

I understand not recommending the boutiques, and I wouldn't generally, either. But, when it comes to Amsoil, Red Line, and RP, their prices are within the normal range and they're far from the most difficult products to obtain. The again, up here, PU is a boutique oil.

With the ZDDP issue, there are, unfortunately, a lot of unscrupulous marketers out there that want to charge a lot of dollars (as in a lot more than the above products) using fear as the driving force.

But, as you point out, choosing something readily available (or even a slight nuisance) with higher ZDDP content in a 30 isn't easy. I wanted a higher ZDDP product for my F-150 and in a 5w-30. Imperial Oil got rid of all their pre-CJ-4 Esso stuff (including a 5w-30 HDEO; the new Delvac 5w-30 has very low phosphorous). VR1, regardless of ZDDP content, is only a 10w-30 or a 20w-50. And, I struggle with the notion of blowing synthetic dollars on an old truck. So, Defy it will be. Of course, the spring pressures aren't anywhere actually requiring enhanced ZDDP, but one has to worry about something, I suppose. It would be too simple to just grab the first on sale jug of 5w-30 I found and dump it in.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Randy_R
Once the cam is broken in, how much zinc do you need?

Generally, significantly less. Like I mentioned above, I think we worry a bit too much. In this vehicle's case, I doubt there's a cat to worry about. I also doubt it needs ridiculous ZDDP levels after break in is complete. Even off the shelf engine oils do a lot better than we give them credit for. The oils of the day didn't face the limits that today's oils do. However, in looking back at some of the old VOAs, plenty of the old oils had no more ZDDP than current GF-5 oils, and some had significantly less.

 

[supercity]

Are A3/B4 rated 5w30s available in the US? Pefect choice if you want a heavy 30 with a little more zddp.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Randy_R
Once the cam is broken in, how much zinc do you need?

Generally, significantly less. Like I mentioned above, I think we worry a bit too much. In this vehicle's case, I doubt there's a cat to worry about. I also doubt it needs ridiculous ZDDP levels after break in is complete. Even off the shelf engine oils do a lot better than we give them credit for. The oils of the day didn't face the limits that today's oils do. However, in looking back at some of the old VOAs, plenty of the old oils had no more ZDDP than current GF-5 oils, and some had significantly less.

The Pontiac 301 turbo did use a cat, however, those GM pellet style cats weren't all that effective to begin with. They also created far more backpressure than grid style cats. The OP didn't say if the OE cat was there or not, or if he used some kind of replacement.

I wonder if he will produce less smog by using EFI.

 

[Garak]

That's interesting. I do know a fair number of GM products didn't have them at the time, and those that did were commonly removed.

We learn something new every day!

 

[JasonC]

I have a replacement Walker cat ready to go in.



Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Randy_R
Once the cam is broken in, how much zinc do you need?

Generally, significantly less. Like I mentioned above, I think we worry a bit too much. In this vehicle's case, I doubt there's a cat to worry about. I also doubt it needs ridiculous ZDDP levels after break in is complete. Even off the shelf engine oils do a lot better than we give them credit for. The oils of the day didn't face the limits that today's oils do. However, in looking back at some of the old VOAs, plenty of the old oils had no more ZDDP than current GF-5 oils, and some had significantly less.

The Pontiac 301 turbo did use a cat, however, those GM pellet style cats weren't all that effective to begin with. They also created far more backpressure than grid style cats. The OP didn't say if the OE cat was there or not, or if he used some kind of replacement.

I wonder if he will produce less smog by using EFI.

 

[A_Harman]

Are you going to raise the turbo boost pressure on it?

 

[JasonC]

No, its mainly just a stock rebuild.


Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Are you going to raise the turbo boost pressure on it?

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
No, its mainly just a stock rebuild.


Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Are you going to raise the turbo boost pressure on it?



No offense Jason, but I wouldn't even screw with that thing. that motor was one of the Generals flops big time! Your familiar with the phrase "ya cant polish a t-rd?"

 

[artificialist]

I wouldn't raise the boost pressure either. One of the complaints I read was that the engine only used a knock sensor to prevent detonation while under boost pressure. Unfortunately, I read that it didn't always work as well as it should have.

Having a new EFI system MIGHT solve that problem, but why risk so much to gain a few HP?

The other problem you would face is that E-10 gasoline was less common in the 1980s than it is now. If the fuel system operated in open loop, E-10 would lean the mixture, making the risk of detonation worse. The EFI system MIGHT solve that, but it is a risk that doesn't seem worth taking.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: JasonC
No, its mainly just a stock rebuild.


Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Are you going to raise the turbo boost pressure on it?



No offense Jason, but I wouldn't even screw with that thing. that motor was one of the Generals flops big time! Your familiar with the phrase "ya cant polish a t-rd?"


One of my friends at college bought one new in 1981. I have no memory of being impressed by its acceleration. The turbo Firebird was about the hottest thing the General had going back then, but electronic port injection was still a couple of years away. The engine was really limited by the lack of a good fuel system.

What is stock boost? 5 or 6 psi? My friends car only had lights that lit up when the turbo was boosting.