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#3373883 - 05/17/14 06:58 AM Porsche Classic Oil
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
Hey All,

I hope this is not a redundant post. But, the Porsche Classic dept just recently released 2 different grades specifically designed for all air-cooled Porsche engines. Hopefully I've summed it up correctly:

Mineral based 20w-50 (All engines up to 3L in displacement)
PAO based 10w-60 (All engines 3L and above)


Info directly from Porsche:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesan...eweditions/oil/
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3373887 - 05/17/14 07:29 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 1390
Loc: Detroit Metro
What is of more interest is:
1) What specifications must these grades meet?

2) What grade are you using now?

3) Are you/why are you interested in changing grades?

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#3373901 - 05/17/14 07:58 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
I have no reason to use either of these. This was merely meant as an FYI and to start a more in depth discussion on these two different oils.
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3373934 - 05/17/14 08:58 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
05LGTLtd Offline


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 691
Loc: Va
Now that's a set of nice looking cans... ;-)
_________________________
2005 Legacy GT, M1 TDT
2010 Forester SOHC, GC 0w-30

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#3373936 - 05/17/14 09:04 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 1390
Loc: Detroit Metro
If an in-depth discussion is what you would like, why not answer my other two questions? Or do you want the rest of us to discuss this while you sit silent on the sidelines?


Originally Posted By: ianj3vr6
I have no reason to use either of these. This was merely meant as an FYI and to start a more in depth discussion on these two different oils.

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#3373958 - 05/17/14 09:48 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: 05LGTLtd]
Hounds Offline


Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 415
Loc: Hither & Yon
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Now that's a set of nice looking cans... ;-)

That's what I was thinking. More garage art.

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#3373961 - 05/17/14 09:53 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Oil Changer]
Stelth Offline


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 1390
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
If an in-depth discussion is what you would like, why not answer my other two questions? Or do you want the rest of us to discuss this while you sit silent on the sidelines?


Originally Posted By: ianj3vr6
I have no reason to use either of these. This was merely meant as an FYI and to start a more in depth discussion on these two different oils.


Oil Changer, I think the OP is bringing up some news he believes will be of interest to some members. He doesn't necessarily have to conform to your concept of the ideal post.
_________________________
Scofflaw

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#3373965 - 05/17/14 10:03 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Stelth]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 1390
Loc: Detroit Metro
You don't need to guess. He came right out and said he wanted an in-depth discussion. Crazy for me to think he wanted to be involved in his own post, ha?

Originally Posted By: Stelth
[Oil Changer, I think the OP is bringing up some news he believes will be of interest to some members. He doesn't necessarily have to conform to your concept of the ideal post.

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#3373988 - 05/17/14 10:32 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
vintageant Offline


Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 203
Loc: Florida, USA
Many thanks to the OP for posting. Great info!

The snide comments, however, mystify me.
_________________________
1925 Alvis SC 12/50 roadster
1937 Alvis Speed 25 Vanden Plas Sports sedan
1970 VW Beetle 2013 Peking to Paris Rally finisher
2003 Honda Accord

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#3374005 - 05/17/14 11:05 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25447
Loc: Illinoistan
Thanks for the post.

Too bad they haven't posted any specs. I'd be curious to see how these oils compare to any other 20w-50 or 10w-60.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (Spectro 15W-50)

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#3374023 - 05/17/14 11:45 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 4442
Loc: Virginia Beach
Very interesting!

Now that I've found the perfect oil, I'll have to start searching for the car to go with that oil...always been "Porsche-curious"...

Cheers,
_________________________
32 Packard 15W40
90 4Runner 10W40 QS4X4
92 300E 5W40 LiquiMoly
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 5W30 PU
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
06 Corolla 5W30 Edge

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#3374053 - 05/17/14 12:45 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
Oil Changer, good lord man! Just thought folks here might be interested to see this.I know nothing about this oil, other than what was on the website. I thought this would be a relative post for others who might be interested. To answer your 3 questions:

1)No freaking clue

2)M1 0w-40,T6, TGMO. Look at my sig and figure it out for yourself

3)Not interested in changing anything.
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3374055 - 05/17/14 12:50 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Oil Changer]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25447
Loc: Illinoistan
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
You don't need to guess. He came right out and said he wanted an in-depth discussion. Crazy for me to think he wanted to be involved in his own post, ha?

Give the guy a break. He posted what he could find, in hopes someone else here may have more info on these.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (Spectro 15W-50)

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#3374098 - 05/17/14 02:13 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9434
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I liked the details provided of why these heavy, lower detergent oils may be more suitable in the referenced older air cooled engines. The comparison to a 0W-30 was interesting (there isn't a 0W-30 on the A40 list) having a more optimum cold start behaviour but it's use could result in leaks, higher oil consumption and lower oil pressure due to the engine's higher production tolerances.

I have a friend with a '72 911 with a rebuilt engine and he has no problem maintaining sufficient oil pressure on using M1 0W-40.
Previous owner was using 20W-50 even after the engine was rebuilt, as most owners of air cooled Porsches do.
The engine runs so much better with the lighter higher VI oil.

My advise to owners of all older cars, is to take advantage of the advances in modern lubricants if you can. If the engine hasn't been rebuilt, is loose and consumes a far bit of oil then sure run a 20W-50 or a 15W-40 if you can maintain OP, but once an engine has been rebuilt use a modern light oil.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3374157 - 05/17/14 04:09 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4836
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
ianj3vr6 - Thanks for the info

These lubricants (viscosities) are what the Factory's Museum in Zuffenhausen uses!

Previously knowing some of the people there including the Director I can assure you they know what they are talking about...................
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3374222 - 05/17/14 06:36 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
irekm Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 16
Loc: vancouver
Maybe they know , but obviously Caterham knows better :-)) .
How , can someone make recommendation of engine oils that are different than specs coming out from the manufacturers is simply beyond me .


Edited by irekm (05/17/14 06:36 PM)

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#3374322 - 05/17/14 08:55 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
The info Porsche provide, along with their reasoning was a good read. Seeing how these are designed for only their air cooled engines, I'd guess that Porsche thought this through pretty thoroughly and developed accordingly.
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3374376 - 05/17/14 10:02 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: irekm]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11298
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: irekm
Maybe they know , but obviously Caterham knows better :-)) .
How , can someone make recommendation of engine oils that are different than specs coming out from the manufacturers is simply beyond me.

You might be well served to read some of the posting history on this issue. CATERHAM makes a valid point, and Doug has generally gone with manual recommendations for various Porsches in question, which did include thinner multigrades and monogrades. The points they made are not mutually exclusive.

The vast majority of posters here, including those with fleet and classic experience, would agree that a 20w-50 or the like is rarely actually necessary. That's particularly true if the engine is in good shape and driven conservatively. It's not going to be harmful (assuming it's not used when too cold or driven hard when cold), so it's also a "safe" recommendation.

The manufacturer specs of the time in Europe had a fairly wide variety of viscosities, and a 30 grade and a 50 grade would both fall within that range. If we're lucky, Doug can tell us a bit of the history of the 20w-50 grade, here in this thread - no one tells the story like he does, and it's extremely enlightening.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3374444 - 05/17/14 11:08 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4836
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Garak - As suggested and for those interested;

The 20W-50 viscosity was the first Euro multigrade oil - it was made by Duckhams. It was called IIRC Duckhams Q2050

It was formulated/made especially around 1958-9 for the Mini - the Mini was introduced in 1959. Due to the integrated engine- gearbox traditional oils were totally unsuitable (excessive-permanent shearing) and they caused all sorts of dramas from excessive leaks to, excessive wear and engine failure. The Q2050 helped with some of these but the A Series engine was modified to cope as for instance oil pump failures resulted from the heavier lubricant under certain conditions.

In other applications the great little A Series engine ran durably and like a dream on SAE20W-20, SAE30 and the 10W-30 from the likes of Mobil(Mobiloil) and others

Castrol followed suit with a 20W-50 around 1960!

The 20W-50 viscosity rapidly became a "fix-it" for all sorts of British applications but the Euro manufacturers were slower on the uptake going progressively to 10W-40

As for Porsche and others I've always preferred the lightest recommended lubricant for the application. The Porsche 928S4 is an example. In the last version it became the first synthetic FF with Shell's XO 5W-40 around 1990. Some OZ Owners were seduced into using a never endorsed 25W-70 in these wonderful engines - why?

They perform very well on 5W-40 synthetic

Of course the Porsche 356 and early production 911s used a FF of HD20W-20 and/or SAE30HD - like other German manufacturers of that time

I prefer not to divulge what Brand 20W-50 the Porsche Museum in Zuffenhausen uses/used to use - but it was/is always warmed to 80C before revs/load was/is applied

Many Oil Companies now make a 10W-60 viscosity (perhaps the modern fix-it viscosity) which dates back to Castrol's Formula R 15W-50 ester based lubricant of the 1970s. Of course we all know the BMW story about this lubricant!!!!!

In some older generation engines of various Makes it is wise to stay with their originally recommended viscosity. This is typically for design, technology and durability reasons!

I hope this is of interest
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3374717 - 05/18/14 10:26 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 5478
Loc: Northern Kentucky
Mobil 1 15w50 seems like a better choice than a mineral 20w50.
_________________________
1999 Ford Taurus 145k (Vulcan v6) - M1 High Mileage 5w30 | Fram Ultra XG 3600
2002 Buick Century 102k - PU 5w30 / Fram Ultra XG 3980 / Filter mag

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#3374863 - 05/18/14 03:18 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Doug Hillary]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11298
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Thanks for that, Doug. I never tire of hearing the history.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3375371 - 05/19/14 06:40 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Garak]
ianj3vr6 Offline


Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Burke, VA
Originally Posted By: Garak
Thanks for that, Doug. I never tire of hearing the history.


Same here Doug, Thank You
_________________________
07 GTI (BPY), 92 SLC (AAA), 06 Rav4 (2AZ-FE)

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#3388304 - 06/03/14 10:30 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
BytorJr Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Dunedin, FL, USA
I saw an add for this not too terribly long ago in one of my Porsche mags.

Anyway, I'm using Valvoline VR1 Synthetic 20w-50; but according to this new information I guess I should get some 10w-60 (3.2L 1985). A good buddy has a 1993 3.6L and we both use the same stuff.

So should we change to 10w-60; and, if so do I pay the Porsche price or go with Castrol EDGE or LiquiMoly? Or Total 9000 10w-50 or Motul 15w-50?

Just curious....

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#3388582 - 06/04/14 11:20 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: BytorJr]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9434
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
BytorJr it depends on how hot your oil gets.
Yes I would be inclined to use the higher VI synthetic 10W-60 or Total 10W-50 if you can maintain the spec' oil pressure.
MY 1985 is not all that old so using modern high detergent oils is not a problem. And if you have plenty of viscosity reserve you may even be able to run a 40 grade oil like M1 0W-40, again assuming you can maintain adequate OP when the oil is as hot as it ever gets.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3389065 - 06/04/14 08:10 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: CATERHAM]
BytorJr Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Dunedin, FL, USA
It's a pretty fresh rebuild (< 5K miles but almost 6 years ago.), 3 or 4 track events; but I don't drive it much anymore (sadly) and it has shown it is a true Porsche air-cooled motor (an ever so slight leak at the oil return tube). Unfortunately, it set idle for a while during my mom's hospitalization.

Oh, and I have a massive MOCAL mounted in front (not fender) that keeps oil < 210 at track temps. Generally right at the 186 mark when thermostat opens. So no oil temp issues here.

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#3389116 - 06/04/14 09:06 PM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: BytorJr]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9434
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Since you've got your oil temp's so well controlled and the engine's freshly rebuilt, M1 0W-40 or even Castrol 0W-30 would likely be good engine lube choices.
Or if you're into something a bit more exotic with higher ZDDP and moly levels, your could try Red Line 0W-30 or a blend of their 0W-20 and 0W-40 determined by oil pressure.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3389398 - 06/05/14 06:55 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9599
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I had a 930 for quite a while, 3.3 Ltr engine. I used RS 10W60 in it and never had any trouble with oil pressure, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same oil as the SG rated RS which is now obsolete and hard to find.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3389483 - 06/05/14 08:14 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: Trav]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2548
Loc: Upper Midwest
What year was your 930? A guy three doors down from my parents had a '79 when I was growing up. I got to ride in it a couple of times, what a car.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I had a 930 for quite a while, 3.3 Ltr engine. I used RS 10W60 in it and never had any trouble with oil pressure, it wouldn't surprise me if this was the same oil as the SG rated RS which is now obsolete and hard to find.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 304K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3389568 - 06/05/14 09:49 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: kschachn]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9599
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I had a 76 3.0 and the 82 3.3. at different times. These are hard cars to drive, they were a little uncivilized.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3400319 - 06/18/14 05:52 AM Re: Porsche Classic Oil [Re: ianj3vr6]
RatPatrol Offline


Registered: 10/13/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: ianj3vr6
Hey All,

I hope this is not a redundant post. But, the Porsche Classic dept just recently released 2 different grades specifically designed for all air-cooled Porsche engines. Hopefully I've summed it up correctly:

Mineral based 20w-50 (All engines up to 3L in displacement)


that's funny, I always ran 20w50 in my 1600cc VW
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