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#3374134 - 05/17/14 03:13 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
... that you recommend others use. <snip>

I never recommend things. But you knew that, didn't you.

Making deliberate misstatements does not encourage debate.

You should continue this discussion with Simple_simon or Trajan. They seem to share the same echo chamber.
_________________________
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3374141 - 05/17/14 03:29 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Ok this is Hillarious.

In Dave's attempt to say MoS2 is approved as an engine oil additive by manufacturers, he said this:

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Approved by vehicle manufacturers? Molykote (Dow Corning's trade name for MoS2 in oil suspension) complies with General Motors (Opel) spec B0401264, Volkswagen specification TL52112 and B7217, General Electric's specification TIL-1117-3Ri and Pratt & Whitney's specificition PWA-36246. And, one of the first spectacular uses of MoS2 in motor oil suspension was by Rolls-Royce in their Merlin engine. Granted, the Rolls Royce supercharged V-12 water cooled Merlin was only used in airplanes but the engine application seems appropriate. Pratt & Whitney is still using it.


ALL those manufacturer approvals are for Molykote P74 Super Anti Seize.

This is not an OIL ADDITIVE!!!!!!

I hope you're not using Molykote anti seize in your oil Dave because you found out it has GM and VW approval.

Talk about misstatements! You actually had to gall to claim Molykote is manufacturer approved as an oil additive based on manufacturer approval for Molykote anti seize.

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#3374271 - 05/17/14 07:51 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3349
Loc: SE PA
The Merlin, without the supercharger, (Thus named Meteor), was also used in tanks. Pugh, Peter. The Magic of a Name The Rolls-Royce Story The First 40 Years

Single stage supercharged versions were used by MTB/MGBs http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/about/marine_history/index.jsp

Doesn't really matter since oil formulations are long past 1930's technology.
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Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3374291 - 05/17/14 08:19 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Trajan, would you agree that oil additive fanatics seem to lose touch with reality?

Here we have a case of someone so enamoured with MoS2 that he tries to tell us that Anti Seize containing MoS2 is approved by VW and GM as an oil additive.

And that it is ok to use the MoS2 powder or powder in mineral oil because Liqui Moly did testing on their additive that contains MoS2 even though Liqui Moly themselves state they have a special process to ensure it doesn't drop out of suspension.

Apart from the false statements on approvals, he's also saying that usage of MoS2 in the 1930s on aircraft engines is the same use case as for modern engines and that the use in the old air cooled VW Beetles is another reason we should supplement modern oils with this secret magic powder that time forgot.

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#3374309 - 05/17/14 08:36 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3349
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Trajan, would you agree that oil additive fanatics seem to lose touch with reality?


Well, I'd rather not get into that. And you shouldn't either
Making it about posters, like was done in the locked thread, gets locked threads.

I just want evidence to back the claims. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And stories/anecdotes are not evidence.




Edited by Trajan (05/17/14 08:37 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3374321 - 05/17/14 08:55 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
ueberooo Offline


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 687
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
he's also saying that usage of MoS2 in the 1930s on aircraft engines is the same use case as for modern engines and that the use in the old air cooled VW Beetles is another reason we should supplement modern oils with this secret magic powder that time forgot.


Whether it's WW2 era engines or not, modern infernal combustion technology hasn't done away with bearings, cams, pistons, cylinders, and crankshafts. They are far more similar than different; the mechanics are all the same. You add some refinements of our times, such as different methods of fuel injection, better materials, timing, cooling, compuer contol and diagnostics, etc, but all in all it's still more or less the same.

The degree to which this thread is nitpicking is somewhat amazing---and I would think, actually not very important to those who are more practical minded. (Nobody is asking you to use it Sam.)

_________________________
--- 1995 Subie Imp EJ18, MT, with ~ 188K miles.... 10w30. I <3 MoS2 + B + Zn ----

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#3374378 - 05/17/14 10:03 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: ueberooo]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 7516
Loc: Colorado
Not all oil supplements and motor oils that contain moly are the same. There are differing chemical formulas that contain moly.

Not so long ago a lot of oil companies were putting moly in their motor oils. But the moly was in proper chemical combination and would not drop out of the motor oil after the engine was shut off. But if the moly is in a powder form and not in chemical combination with the oil it can drop out of the oil and potentially cause problems.

A lot of the oil companies seem to have turned to other friction reducers instead of moly. They may be doing this because they have found more effective friction reducers or maybe they are doing it because of cost.

I would not hesitate to put a high moly Pennzoil motor oil into my car engine. It was developed by Pennzoil Corporation. But I would not put some moly powder in my engine that was unknown in quality and from some mysterious company nobody had ever heard of.

I don't think moly is the last word when it comes to friction reducers. If an oil company finds something better to add to their oil I don't care. As long as it works, reduces friction, and does not cause any problems who really cares?

A lot of guys here are very happy with this LM moly product that can be ordered through NAPA. And LM makes motor oils. That company is a name brand. But some mysterious powder that comes from some unknown company? I would be willing to use the LM product but not some moly powder that came from who knows where.

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#3374487 - 05/18/14 12:04 AM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Trajan]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Trajan, would you agree that oil additive fanatics seem to lose touch with reality?


Well, I'd rather not get into that. And you shouldn't either
Making it about posters, like was done in the locked thread, gets locked threads.

I just want evidence to back the claims. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And stories/anecdotes are not evidence.




You make a good point.

I guess I am just amazed that someone who jumped on me for saying I used the cheapest oil that met manufacturer specs after he asked me what oil I used and then expressed a concern that others would see the word "cheapest" and make poor choices, then proceeds to quote approvals for anti seize lubricants as evidence that manufacturers approve powdered moly as an oil additive.

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#3374492 - 05/18/14 12:14 AM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: ueberooo]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: ueberooo
The degree to which this thread is nitpicking is somewhat amazing---and I would think, actually not very important to those who are more practical minded. (Nobody is asking you to use it Sam.)



Sure but there was a huge false equivalence being stated.

Namely that if a component is tested or approved in any engine at any point in time, anything that bears a similarity to it, even if the similarity is in the name, is perfectly ok to use.

And to prove the false equivalence, facts were being made up about another product and the product in question.

When we have posters stating that approvals for an anti seize lubricant are approvals for oil additives from GM and VW, there is a huge danger of misunderstanding for people who may find the post and take it as written.

You may think its nitpicking, I see it as a threat to the credibility of this forum.

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#3374543 - 05/18/14 03:36 AM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
simple_simon Offline


Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 103
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Ok this is Hillarious.

In Dave's attempt to say MoS2 is approved as an engine oil additive by manufacturers, he said this:

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Approved by vehicle manufacturers? Molykote (Dow Corning's trade name for MoS2 in oil suspension) complies with General Motors (Opel) spec B0401264, Volkswagen specification TL52112 and B7217, General Electric's specification TIL-1117-3Ri and Pratt & Whitney's specificition PWA-36246. And, one of the first spectacular uses of MoS2 in motor oil suspension was by Rolls-Royce in their Merlin engine. Granted, the Rolls Royce supercharged V-12 water cooled Merlin was only used in airplanes but the engine application seems appropriate. Pratt & Whitney is still using it.


ALL those manufacturer approvals are for Molykote P74 Super Anti Seize.

This is not an OIL ADDITIVE!!!!!!

I hope you're not using Molykote anti seize in your oil Dave because you found out it has GM and VW approval.

Talk about misstatements! You actually had to gall to claim Molykote is manufacturer approved as an oil additive based on manufacturer approval for Molykote anti seize.


ROTFLMAO

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#3374810 - 05/18/14 01:18 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3349
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Trajan, would you agree that oil additive fanatics seem to lose touch with reality?


Well, I'd rather not get into that. And you shouldn't either
Making it about posters, like was done in the locked thread, gets locked threads.

I just want evidence to back the claims. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

And stories/anecdotes are not evidence.




You make a good point.

I guess I am just amazed that someone who jumped on me for saying I used the cheapest oil that met manufacturer specs after he asked me what oil I used and then expressed a concern that others would see the word "cheapest" and make poor choices, then proceeds to quote approvals for anti seize lubricants as evidence that manufacturers approve powdered moly as an oil additive.


There was no cause for the guy to do that. I use oil from Walmart myself, since you can get Mobil 1/Castrol Edge cheaper than other brick and mortar stores. So is that using cheap oil?

It doesn't matter what anti seize additive was used eighty years ago in an aircraft engine. I fail to see why he made that an issue. And what car manufacturer recommends or uses it in motor oil? It wasn't used in engine oil back then either.

That's something you use to keep, say, the two piece sparkplug Ford uses from seizing so you don't break them while taking them out.

And really, why even take seriously anyone who has to resort to insults when their position falls flat?


Edited by Trajan (05/18/14 01:26 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3374811 - 05/18/14 01:19 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: Sam2000]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3349
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Originally Posted By: ueberooo
The degree to which this thread is nitpicking is somewhat amazing---and I would think, actually not very important to those who are more practical minded. (Nobody is asking you to use it Sam.)



Sure but there was a huge false equivalence being stated.

Namely that if a component is tested or approved in any engine at any point in time, anything that bears a similarity to it, even if the similarity is in the name, is perfectly ok to use.

And to prove the false equivalence, facts were being made up about another product and the product in question.

When we have posters stating that approvals for an anti seize lubricant are approvals for oil additives from GM and VW, there is a huge danger of misunderstanding for people who may find the post and take it as written.

You may think its nitpicking, I see it as a threat to the credibility of this forum.
approved

Que gatotj..........
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3374815 - 05/18/14 01:31 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3349
Loc: SE PA
http://www.ellsworth.com/Dow-Corning/Molykote/


Ellsworth Adhesives offers a comprehensive line of Dow Corning Molykote silicone anti-seize compounds, pastes, lubricants, and greases.

Pastes: Grease-like materials containing a very high percentage of solid lubricants. Used for assembly and lubrication of highly loaded, slow moving parts for threaded fasteners.

Greases: Solid to semisolid materials consisting of a lubricating fluid, thickening agent and additives. Used on rolling element bearings and other moving parts.

Compounds: Grease-like materials composed of silicone fluids and silica fillers. Used for their sealing, dielectric, non-metal-to-metal lubricating and release properties.

Sure, stick that in motor oil.......
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3374817 - 05/18/14 01:37 PM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
FetchFar Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 831
Loc: Colorado
Good discussion... My perfect test to see if LiquiMoly MOS2 additive would really help with wear: Run the Sequence IVA cam/lobe wear test, one engine with Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 and the other engine with the same oil plus the extra moly in there. ... Would there be a difference? This test is needed. Some folks, quite reasonably, believe that plain old Pennz Plat cannot get better wear performance any more than it is --- straight stuff!
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#3375278 - 05/19/14 12:01 AM Re: liqui moly mos2 additive? [Re: 2012AccentSE]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Liqui Moly is a reputable company.

Their two oil products that contain the moly additive are 10w40 and 20w50. Both meet ACEA specs but don't claim to meet manufacturer specs nor are approved by any manufacturer.

The 10w40 is recommended for high mileage engines and is apparently the best selling oil in Germany, presumably for high mileage vehicles.

So my conclusions are that new or not worn engines would show no improvement from this particular additive. If there was an mpg improvement then I think manufacturers would specify the usage of the additive in order to claim lucrative CAFE credits and also claim lower emissions which reduces the cost of ownership in Europe.

Now clearly, Liqui Moly and car owners in Germany believe that the additive helps for some older engines. I certainly would be interested in seeing evidence from controlled tests of what the product could actually achieve and in what circumstances. Vehicle manufacturers viewpoints would also be interesting.

I find it hard to understand why Liqui Moly does not provide something more concrete. I kind of understand why manufacturers do not recommend such additives - they would implicitly be admitting that their engines wear sufficiently at certain mileages that performance is impacted.

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