During the last winter, stopping at corners with an ice buildup would put some cars into a tail spin while others would stop in a straight line..all the cars I saw would be generally new with all the safety features representing a cross of various manufactures…most of the cars would have there rear wheels lock up while a few like my own car would stop in a straight line no matter what kind of surface is on the road.. having snow tires did not seem to make a difference...
Why some ABS brakes work flawlessly others don't ?
- Thread starter Petersubaru
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I have noticed that with good all season or snow tires, our ABS almost never kicked in while trying to stop. But, with worn tires, it's a different story. We'd slide through intersections(slightly) or even pass up our driveway.
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
I have noticed that with good all season or snow tires, our ABS almost never kicked in while trying to stop. But, with worn tires, it's a different story. We'd slide through intersections(slightly) or even pass up our driveway.
Worn tires and ABS is a dangerous combination. Yes, sliding is bad, but there are some cases where it's your ONLY option.
I have noticed that with good all season or snow tires, our ABS almost never kicked in while trying to stop. But, with worn tires, it's a different story. We'd slide through intersections(slightly) or even pass up our driveway.
Worn tires and ABS is a dangerous combination. Yes, sliding is bad, but there are some cases where it's your ONLY option.
Originally Posted By: supton
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around. Or that snow tires would not help.
But some drivers are able to overcome the best of systems with their driving habits.
THIS^
If you are driving to fast for the conditions no amount of new tech will stop you.
Excessive speed and lack of common sense was rampant this winter.
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around. Or that snow tires would not help.
But some drivers are able to overcome the best of systems with their driving habits.
THIS^
If you are driving to fast for the conditions no amount of new tech will stop you.
Excessive speed and lack of common sense was rampant this winter.
Originally Posted By: supton
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around.
ABS is meant to keep the wheels from sliding on the road surface in their normal direction of travel. It operates by preventing you from applying the brakes. Stopping distances can be much longer with ABS than without, depending on the driver's skill, and on moral hazard. The presence of ABS can increase the risk of rear-enders and other collisions.
Vehicle Stability Control is meant to prevent the vehicle from sliding sideways. It does this by sensing excessive lateral acceleration, then applying the brakes and turning the steering wheel for you. It is of extremely limited effectiveness on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
Once you lose traction on an icy road, there is a good chance you will not regain it until you hit something and stop. The trick is to not lose traction in the first place. And mandated automated machinery is precisely the wrong tool to use towards that end.
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around.
ABS is meant to keep the wheels from sliding on the road surface in their normal direction of travel. It operates by preventing you from applying the brakes. Stopping distances can be much longer with ABS than without, depending on the driver's skill, and on moral hazard. The presence of ABS can increase the risk of rear-enders and other collisions.
Vehicle Stability Control is meant to prevent the vehicle from sliding sideways. It does this by sensing excessive lateral acceleration, then applying the brakes and turning the steering wheel for you. It is of extremely limited effectiveness on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
Once you lose traction on an icy road, there is a good chance you will not regain it until you hit something and stop. The trick is to not lose traction in the first place. And mandated automated machinery is precisely the wrong tool to use towards that end.
Originally Posted By: Roob
Originally Posted By: supton
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around. Or that snow tires would not help.
But some drivers are able to overcome the best of systems with their driving habits.
THIS^
If you are driving to fast for the conditions no amount of new tech will stop you.
Excessive speed and lack of common sense was rampant this winter.
Drive a short wheelbase wrangler (07+) in the snow, in 2WD. It's outright dangerous.
As soon as one of the front wheels slows down from hitting a small drift, it starts playing with the traction control and ABS and around you go!
Much safer with traction control disabled.
Originally Posted By: supton
With recent requirements for vehicle stability control I'm finding it hard to believe the rear would snap around. Or that snow tires would not help.
But some drivers are able to overcome the best of systems with their driving habits.
THIS^
If you are driving to fast for the conditions no amount of new tech will stop you.
Excessive speed and lack of common sense was rampant this winter.
Drive a short wheelbase wrangler (07+) in the snow, in 2WD. It's outright dangerous.
As soon as one of the front wheels slows down from hitting a small drift, it starts playing with the traction control and ABS and around you go!
Much safer with traction control disabled.
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you? I thought it would just apply and release specific brakes to attempt getting the car to go in the direction intended by the steering input.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Vehicle Stability Control is meant to prevent the vehicle from sliding sideways. It does this by sensing excessive lateral acceleration, then applying the brakes and turning the steering wheel for you. It is of extremely limited effectiveness on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Vehicle Stability Control is meant to prevent the vehicle from sliding sideways. It does this by sensing excessive lateral acceleration, then applying the brakes and turning the steering wheel for you. It is of extremely limited effectiveness on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
Obviously, all the tail swingers had their best pair of tires on the front of their car.
I do think that the driving style and old habits have a lot to do with it.
I do think that the driving style and old habits have a lot to do with it.
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
I'd say the better drivers were the ones staying straight and the boneheads could not keep it straight regardless of tires and computer controls.
ABS and stability control can't violate the laws of physics. If you're going too fast through a curve for the available grip and you blindly crank the wheel to the left, there's nothing stability control can do. One end or the other will let go, and you'll be in the ditch. Period.
so what cars come equipped with this?
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
Originally Posted By: Tegger
depending on the driver's skill, and on moral hazard.
on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
What exactly is a "moral hazard"? I'm familiar with drinking, gambling, and cheating on your wife, but never heard it applied to a driving condition.
depending on the driver's skill, and on moral hazard.
on icy roads, where danger is the greatest, traction the least, and moral hazard your worst enemy.
What exactly is a "moral hazard"? I'm familiar with drinking, gambling, and cheating on your wife, but never heard it applied to a driving condition.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
That system uses brakes, just like all of them. Read it CAREFULLY- nowhere does it say that the computer does anything with the steering rack. It implies "steering" the vehicle, but not in the sense of turning the wheel anywhere other than where the driver turns it. I don't think any of them do, or ever will because the steering wheel is the only thing that tells the stability algorithm what the driver is trying to actually DO with the car. The computer senses the rate of rotation of the car, compares it to which way the driver is pointing the steering wheel, and does everything it can with the brakes to get the car to go where the driver is pointing it. The minute the computer takes over moving the wheel, car is driving itself, blind to the driver's input, and any stability algorithm without added external inputs (lane sensors, obstacle sensors, etc.) fails. What is still TOTALLY incumbent on the driver is anticipating what's going to happen. The driver cant just throw the best stability control system in the world into a hairpin turn at 80 mph in the snow and expect to come out the other side with the shiny side up.
It would be different if the car could sense the lane boundaries... but even then what if the driver is swerving out of the lane to avoid a kid in the road? Eventually we'll get to self-driving cars that can detect the lane AND the kid, but for the most part we're not there yet.
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
That system uses brakes, just like all of them. Read it CAREFULLY- nowhere does it say that the computer does anything with the steering rack. It implies "steering" the vehicle, but not in the sense of turning the wheel anywhere other than where the driver turns it. I don't think any of them do, or ever will because the steering wheel is the only thing that tells the stability algorithm what the driver is trying to actually DO with the car. The computer senses the rate of rotation of the car, compares it to which way the driver is pointing the steering wheel, and does everything it can with the brakes to get the car to go where the driver is pointing it. The minute the computer takes over moving the wheel, car is driving itself, blind to the driver's input, and any stability algorithm without added external inputs (lane sensors, obstacle sensors, etc.) fails. What is still TOTALLY incumbent on the driver is anticipating what's going to happen. The driver cant just throw the best stability control system in the world into a hairpin turn at 80 mph in the snow and expect to come out the other side with the shiny side up.
It would be different if the car could sense the lane boundaries... but even then what if the driver is swerving out of the lane to avoid a kid in the road? Eventually we'll get to self-driving cars that can detect the lane AND the kid, but for the most part we're not there yet.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
That system uses brakes, just like all of them. Read it CAREFULLY- nowhere does it say that the computer does anything with the steering rack. It implies "steering" the vehicle, but not in the sense of turning the wheel anywhere other than where the driver turns it. I don't think any of them do, or ever will because the steering wheel is the only thing that tells the stability algorithm what the driver is trying to actually DO with the car. The computer senses the rate of rotation of the car, compares it to which way the driver is pointing the steering wheel, and does everything it can with the brakes to get the car to go where the driver is pointing it. The minute the computer takes over moving the wheel, car is driving itself, blind to the driver's input, and any stability algorithm without added external inputs (lane sensors, obstacle sensors, etc.) fails. What is still TOTALLY incumbent on the driver is anticipating what's going to happen. The driver cant just throw the best stability control system in the world into a hairpin turn at 80 mph in the snow and expect to come out the other side with the shiny side up.
It would be different if the car could sense the lane boundaries... but even then what if the driver is swerving out of the lane to avoid a kid in the road? Eventually we'll get to self-driving cars that can detect the lane AND the kid, but for the most part we're not there yet.
There's two that I know of that manipulate the steering wheel. Cant remember which one does which - but one of the systems will shake the steering wheel via EPAS if you start to go out of the lane (I think that may be ford) and the other will steer via EPAS to keep you in your lane.
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Rand
What cars does it turn the steering wheel for you?
Maybe all of them.
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/...active/vsc.html
That system uses brakes, just like all of them. Read it CAREFULLY- nowhere does it say that the computer does anything with the steering rack. It implies "steering" the vehicle, but not in the sense of turning the wheel anywhere other than where the driver turns it. I don't think any of them do, or ever will because the steering wheel is the only thing that tells the stability algorithm what the driver is trying to actually DO with the car. The computer senses the rate of rotation of the car, compares it to which way the driver is pointing the steering wheel, and does everything it can with the brakes to get the car to go where the driver is pointing it. The minute the computer takes over moving the wheel, car is driving itself, blind to the driver's input, and any stability algorithm without added external inputs (lane sensors, obstacle sensors, etc.) fails. What is still TOTALLY incumbent on the driver is anticipating what's going to happen. The driver cant just throw the best stability control system in the world into a hairpin turn at 80 mph in the snow and expect to come out the other side with the shiny side up.
It would be different if the car could sense the lane boundaries... but even then what if the driver is swerving out of the lane to avoid a kid in the road? Eventually we'll get to self-driving cars that can detect the lane AND the kid, but for the most part we're not there yet.
There's two that I know of that manipulate the steering wheel. Cant remember which one does which - but one of the systems will shake the steering wheel via EPAS if you start to go out of the lane (I think that may be ford) and the other will steer via EPAS to keep you in your lane.
Wheel "shaking" to alert the driver is like the "stick shaker" used in aircraft for decades to warn of a stall. Its an alert, not a taking of control.
Applying a slight pressure against the driver (or just reducing power assist) is likewise not a taking of control- the driver can still overcome it. The driver's input is NEEDED for stability control to work, otherwise the car is self-driving and that's a different kettle of fish.
Applying a slight pressure against the driver (or just reducing power assist) is likewise not a taking of control- the driver can still overcome it. The driver's input is NEEDED for stability control to work, otherwise the car is self-driving and that's a different kettle of fish.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
ABS and stability control can't violate the laws of physics. If you're going too fast through a curve for the available grip and you blindly crank the wheel to the left, there's nothing stability control can do. One end or the other will let go, and you'll be in the ditch. Period.
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
During the last winter, stopping at corners with an ice buildup would put some cars into a tail spin while others would stop in a straight line..all the cars I saw would be generally new with all the safety features representing a cross of various manufactures…most of the cars would have there rear wheels lock up while a few like my own car would stop in a straight line no matter what kind of surface is on the road.. having snow tires did not seem to make a difference...
I'm not clear here: were all these tailspins at the same intersection at the same time as others managed just fine? Or noticed at different times at different intersections?
ABS and stability control can't violate the laws of physics. If you're going too fast through a curve for the available grip and you blindly crank the wheel to the left, there's nothing stability control can do. One end or the other will let go, and you'll be in the ditch. Period.
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
During the last winter, stopping at corners with an ice buildup would put some cars into a tail spin while others would stop in a straight line..all the cars I saw would be generally new with all the safety features representing a cross of various manufactures…most of the cars would have there rear wheels lock up while a few like my own car would stop in a straight line no matter what kind of surface is on the road.. having snow tires did not seem to make a difference...
I'm not clear here: were all these tailspins at the same intersection at the same time as others managed just fine? Or noticed at different times at different intersections?
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Wheel "shaking" to alert the driver is like the "stick shaker" used in aircraft for decades to warn of a stall. Its an alert, not a taking of control.
Applying a slight pressure against the driver (or just reducing power assist) is likewise not a taking of control- the driver can still overcome it. The driver's input is NEEDED for stability control to work, otherwise the car is self-driving and that's a different kettle of fish.
You got it right. I think others are reading too much into the steering control.
The system, unless fully aware of its surrounding, cannot ever be allowed to take over the steering controls. Just imagine a scenario where pedestrian steps in your lane and you have to serve to the opposing traffic lane to avoid him, provided that you determined this is the best course of action, i.e. no oncoming traffic, and the system reacting to your "lane departure" and taking over the steering controls. The manufacturers would be sued to oblivion.
Wheel "shaking" to alert the driver is like the "stick shaker" used in aircraft for decades to warn of a stall. Its an alert, not a taking of control.
Applying a slight pressure against the driver (or just reducing power assist) is likewise not a taking of control- the driver can still overcome it. The driver's input is NEEDED for stability control to work, otherwise the car is self-driving and that's a different kettle of fish.
You got it right. I think others are reading too much into the steering control.
The system, unless fully aware of its surrounding, cannot ever be allowed to take over the steering controls. Just imagine a scenario where pedestrian steps in your lane and you have to serve to the opposing traffic lane to avoid him, provided that you determined this is the best course of action, i.e. no oncoming traffic, and the system reacting to your "lane departure" and taking over the steering controls. The manufacturers would be sued to oblivion.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
ABS and stability control can't violate the laws of physics. If you're going too fast through a curve for the available grip and you blindly crank the wheel to the left, there's nothing stability control can do. One end or the other will let go, and you'll be in the ditch. Period.
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
During the last winter, stopping at corners with an ice buildup would put some cars into a tail spin while others would stop in a straight line..all the cars I saw would be generally new with all the safety features representing a cross of various manufactures…most of the cars would have there rear wheels lock up while a few like my own car would stop in a straight line no matter what kind of surface is on the road.. having snow tires did not seem to make a difference...
I'm not clear here: were all these tailspins at the same intersection at the same time as others managed just fine? Or noticed at different times at different intersections?
…this corner had in one instance a new gm truck with snow tires go sideways…my subaru outback stops straight…the nissan to my right side stops straight…two other cars are approaching me and my 4 way flashers are giving a warning and they both made a 360 degree turn..no one driving faster then 30mph approaching the stop sign..I pulled over to the side of the road to watch again how other cars were performing which turned out to be no better…I am very concerned about my next car having the ability to stop safely..anyway new insights have been gained from watching that experience...
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
ABS and stability control can't violate the laws of physics. If you're going too fast through a curve for the available grip and you blindly crank the wheel to the left, there's nothing stability control can do. One end or the other will let go, and you'll be in the ditch. Period.
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
During the last winter, stopping at corners with an ice buildup would put some cars into a tail spin while others would stop in a straight line..all the cars I saw would be generally new with all the safety features representing a cross of various manufactures…most of the cars would have there rear wheels lock up while a few like my own car would stop in a straight line no matter what kind of surface is on the road.. having snow tires did not seem to make a difference...
I'm not clear here: were all these tailspins at the same intersection at the same time as others managed just fine? Or noticed at different times at different intersections?
…this corner had in one instance a new gm truck with snow tires go sideways…my subaru outback stops straight…the nissan to my right side stops straight…two other cars are approaching me and my 4 way flashers are giving a warning and they both made a 360 degree turn..no one driving faster then 30mph approaching the stop sign..I pulled over to the side of the road to watch again how other cars were performing which turned out to be no better…I am very concerned about my next car having the ability to stop safely..anyway new insights have been gained from watching that experience...
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