Bugatti required oil

Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay, and that variant of the Ford GT could have been sold at any Ford dealer with full warranty as well as EPA/DOT compliance?
The Bug is a unicorn, but it also has displacement that no Ford Mod V-8 can approach.
The basic thousand BHP Veyron has barely more specific output than does a two liter S2000.
The 5.4 liter Ford is already at a much higher level and actually must produce considerably more power that's used to drive its mechanical forced induction.
A US street legal Veyron, complete with all the creature comforts can already crack 250 mph.
There's no doubt that a stripped out (lightened) car with some engine development, which would be easy with a turbocharged engine that wouldn't have to last, could eclipse this Ford GT standing mile record.
Cost wouldn't be a barrier, since VW is richer than Ford and has already spent more on the Bugatti program than they can ever hope to get back.
If VW wants the bragging rights, I'm confident that they could win them.
I do think that EB must be rolling over in his grave, or maybe not.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.
 
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.






The Veyron actually costs VW 5 million dollars to make each one. The car wasn't built to make a profit on.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Okay, and that variant of the Ford GT could have been sold at any Ford dealer with full warranty as well as EPA/DOT compliance?


Of course not, that wasn't my point. I was responding to your claims about the Veyron's engine having more headroom than the Modular, which I don't agree with.

Quote:
The Bug is a unicorn, but it also has displacement that no Ford Mod V-8 can approach.


Are you sure about that? The Veyron is 8.0L, Hurricane/BOSS (which is the SOHC mill currently displacing 6.2L in the F-series) has a displacement ceiling somewhere in the 8.xxL realm. And of course one could stroke the 6.8L V10 as well to north of 8.0L.

Quote:
The basic thousand BHP Veyron has barely more specific output than does a two liter S2000.
The 5.4 liter Ford is already at a much higher level and actually must produce considerably more power that's used to drive its mechanical forced induction.
A US street legal Veyron, complete with all the creature comforts can already crack 250 mph.
There's no doubt that a stripped out (lightened) car with some engine development, which would be easy with a turbocharged engine that wouldn't have to last, could eclipse this Ford GT standing mile record.


But nobody has, which is surprising given how easy you feel this feat is
smirk.gif
The "usual contenders" in the standing mile competitions have been Nissan GT-R's, Lambo's and the Ford GT. Having a top speed of 250Mph is one thing. Being able to hit 283Mph in one mile is another. And the Hofman Motorsports Ford GT removed the mechanical supercharger in favour of a pair of twins FWIW.

Quote:
Cost wouldn't be a barrier, since VW is richer than Ford and has already spent more on the Bugatti program than they can ever hope to get back.
If VW wants the bragging rights, I'm confident that they could win them.
I do think that EB must be rolling over in his grave, or maybe not.


OK, we could talk mad hypotheticals all day long but that doesn't do anything to validate the point you had attempted to make, which was that the Veyron's engine had more headroom than the Modular. As it stands, there are more examples of the Modular family making more than 2,000HP than there are of the Veyron. In fact there are probably more 2,000+HP Modulars than there are Veyrons.
 
Originally Posted By: riggaz
They do run hot with all those turbos and there's a lot of torque going through those bearings, I wouldn't want to run a 0w20 that's for sure!


For an extra $28,000, they'll install a pressure gauge on the hood for those insisting on a 20 weight.
 
Originally Posted By: FowVay
And BTW, my Kawasaki ZX-14R puts down 197 horsepower to the back tire with a mere 1.441 liters of normally aspirated displacement giving it an output of 136.7 horsepower/liter. That Volkswagen on steroids makes 125 horsepower/liter with a ton of blowers and pushers and coolers and whatever else they could find in the Beetle parts bin. Eight liters of displacement and ONLY 1001 HP? tsk tsk tsk.. inefficiency at it's finest.

10W-60 INDEED!
wink.gif



And this is why focussing on power is folly. Your ZX-14R makes that power because of engine speed. Engine power is a factor of torque and speed - the bike's engine makes low torque but high speed, so gets a high power number.

However, when thinking about real engine forces, it is torque that you need to worry about (this is, after all, what pushes on the crankshaft journals).

Now how does your ZX-14R look? Let's take a look:

Kawasaki ZX-14R peak torque = 113 lb.ft (best I could find online)
Bugatti Veyron peak torque = 922 lb.ft

You can slice this up a few ways:

Per litre: 81 vs 115 - Veyron wins by 42%
Per cylinder: 28 vs 58 - Veyron wins by 107%
Per bhp: 0.57 vs 0.92 - Veyron wins by 61%
Per ton: 390 vs 443 - Veyron wins by 14%
Per ton (with 180 lb rider/driver): 297 vs 425 - Veyron wins by 43%.

Bang for buck the bike wins hands-down, but where it matters to the oil, the Veyron puts a lot more demand into it.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.


The accounting rules for expensing/capitalizing R&D costs are very specific when it comes to what can be put into the inventory numbers. Any costs up until a working prototype is created are all expensed in the period that they are incurred. So, by the time that VAG had a functional prototype of the Veyron, all of those costs were just expensed and would not show up in the cost of goods sold from inventory sales.
 
Originally Posted By: quarterliter
Make sure you are using wheel horsepower/torque for both of them. Has anyone actually seen a dyno chart for a veyron?


I've never seen a dyno report on the Veyron.

Here is a vid of a stock 1001 bhp Veyorn running the 1/4 in 10.17 seconds at 139.44 mph. Given that this car weighs 4300 pounds, I think it's fair to assume the hp at the wheels is somewhere in the neighborhood of 800.
 
I know that you didn't mean to imply that the record setting Ford GT was streetable.
I mentioned Mod V-8s for a reason.
I know that the V-10 exists, but it coudn't possibly be packaged into a production car, and Ford couldn't afford the loss of CAFE credits this thirsty engine would bring even if it could be. The Mod has always been displacement limited for cars, as compared to GM's compact pushrod engines or probably the very dense VW 16 cylinder, although I'm not sure how to refer to its configuration.
I also understand that it wouldn't be easy to build a car to run to well over 250 mph in the standing mile, but a stock Veyron has eight liters deployed to begin with and also has four turbos to play with.
A little overbore and a little overboost would no doubt yield a lot more power, if VW wants to play that game, especially since the engine wouldn't have to live very long, could use any fuel and would not need to comply with any emissions standards.
Remember that the stripper model Veyron is capable of nearly 260 mph as delivered stock and also meets fifty state emission standards and that VW is also required to warrant that the engine will remain emissions legal for quite a few years and miles under USEPA regs.
While I'm sure that there exist 2000 bhp Ford Mods, I have to wonder what their life might be as measured in hours, or maybe passes?
Probably not any longer than what you'd get with a 2000 bph Veyron. One will get built, if not by VW than by some private owner with more money than sense.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I know that you didn't mean to imply that the record setting Ford GT was streetable.
I mentioned Mod V-8s for a reason.
I know that the V-10 exists, but it coudn't possibly be packaged into a production car, and Ford couldn't afford the loss of CAFE credits this thirsty engine would bring even if it could be. The Mod has always been displacement limited for cars, as compared to GM's compact pushrod engines or probably the very dense VW 16 cylinder, although I'm not sure how to refer to its configuration.
I also understand that it wouldn't be easy to build a car to run to well over 250 mph in the standing mile, but a stock Veyron has eight liters deployed to begin with and also has four turbos to play with.
A little overbore and a little overboost would no doubt yield a lot more power, if VW wants to play that game, especially since the engine wouldn't have to live very long, could use any fuel and would not need to comply with any emissions standards.
Remember that the stripper model Veyron is capable of nearly 260 mph as delivered stock and also meets fifty state emission standards and that VW is also required to warrant that the engine will remain emissions legal for quite a few years and miles under USEPA regs.
While I'm sure that there exist 2000 bhp Ford Mods, I have to wonder what their life might be as measured in hours, or maybe passes?
Probably not any longer than what you'd get with a 2000 bph Veyron. One will get built, if not by VW than by some private owner with more money than sense.


You'll laugh but somebody actually managed to squeeze the 6.8L V10 into an SN95
grin.gif


Also, not sure if you ever saw the GT90 concept car, but if not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT90

Modular-based 6.0L quad-turbo V12
smile.gif
And that was 1995.

Also of note, the Koenigsegg CCR was powered by a twin-supercharged Ford Modular V8 displacing 4.7L and making 795HP. A later edition made 891BHP.

I have no idea how long the 5.4's last at 2K+HP. But I was surprised at how well the 4.6 Termi's held up at the 1K HP levels. A buddy of mine who runs a tuning shop had a DD termi with a pair of twins on it making 850RHWP (about 975HP crank) that he drag raced and drove everywhere. Still had full emissions gear on it too
crazy2.gif


The Modulars have impressed the heck out of me (in case you didn't notice, LOL). That's in no way meant to undermine the achievement and engineering masterpiece that is the Veyron of course
smile.gif
It is an engineer's wet dream. I was just really shocked when I saw the power guys were getting out of the Ford GT setup, many of them with mostly stock engines. And they were staying together.
 
Is any of those 1000+ hp engines designed to be as reliable and long-lasting as the engine in the Veyron? I don't think anyone could say that with a straight face, except maybe in the cases of the GT90 and Koenigsegg cars -- both of which, I'm sure you'll agree, are exceptions that prove the rule: it's extremely hard to make an engine that puts out that much power with anywhere near normal longevity. No one could even come close until well after the Veyron came out in 2005.

And that's completely ignoring the docility and tractability of the Veyron's engine, which are nearly unmatched even among highly refined luxury car engines with half the power, let alone anything that comes close to 1000 hp.
 
Koenigsegg's engines are much more impressive than the veyrons. 270HP per liter on the new ONE:1. All from a twin turbo v8. No need for a w16 whiz bang engine. And even the most powerful bugatti does not have more than 1340 hp or one megawatt. It's amazing that a small swedish company could build such a competitive super car.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Is any of those 1000+ hp engines designed to be as reliable and long-lasting as the engine in the Veyron? I don't think anyone could say that with a straight face, except maybe in the cases of the GT90 and Koenigsegg cars -- both of which, I'm sure you'll agree, are exceptions that prove the rule: it's extremely hard to make an engine that puts out that much power with anywhere near normal longevity. No one could even come close until well after the Veyron came out in 2005.

And that's completely ignoring the docility and tractability of the Veyron's engine, which are nearly unmatched even among highly refined luxury car engines with half the power, let alone anything that comes close to 1000 hp.


I think the ~900HP CCR is pretty close, and I believe pre-dates the Veyron. Sure, it is off a bit over 100BHP, but it is also shy 3.5L too, LOL
smile.gif
I just think it is pretty darn impressive they did it with a Modular
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Mathson
Yeah like number of horses you have under the hood has something to do with the viscosity of the oil.

Each engine of Boeing 777 has 110 000 hp and it's using oil that is 5 cSt at 100c as per D50TF1, class B.


I didn't realise they were piston engines on those...
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No you are wrong.

It is widely reported to be just under £4million a car.

Which is around $6million
 
Originally Posted By: quarterliter
Koenigsegg's engines are much more impressive than the veyrons. 270HP per liter on the new ONE:1. All from a twin turbo v8. No need for a w16 whiz bang engine. And even the most powerful bugatti does not have more than 1340 hp or one megawatt. It's amazing that a small swedish company could build such a competitive super car.


You are completely ignoring that one car is pretty bare bones and slightly ragged when driven hard.

And a Veyron was maxed by Captain Slow from TopGear, probably wearing brogues.
 
And the CCR produced under 800bhp with the help of two rotrex compressors.

It would give more power on biofuel though. I think it was BioEthanol but don't quote me on that as it was many years ago i watches the first road test of the CCR on TopGear
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top