What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do?

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The counter guy typed in the number on the bar code label off the box of Ceratec. I'll try to find the receipt...but our trash pick up was yesterday.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If Ceratec is a coating, why is it needed on new engine? Not only it is not needed, would it not lead to more problems? Think what coating is trying to do. It is trying to reduce the clearance between the cylinder bore and piston rings. If the engine is new, is the reduction advisable?

Additives in new engine seems counter productive and might lead to problems rather than solving any non-existent issues. It is like throwing unneeded antibiotic at a body. It will only do harm.


As Jtrans5 noted the dry start up is not really possible due to the hard coating. We are not talking build up that can measurably add to thickness. The place where the build up helps the most on the 325 Polaris aluminum head based on visual at tear down was the ceramic layer on the aluminum cam shaft bearings surface. That top aluminum bearing surface in any engine is as risk of a 'dry' start so if Ceratec coats those services how could it be a bad thing. Liqui Moly is not snake oil company I think most will agree.

Just from science I would not want competing coating chemicals trying to fight it out for bare metal parts at the same time. I could even see driving a few hundred miles on a new oil change before adding the Ceratec so the new detergent has cleaned the metal bearing surfaces very well.

Actually if anyone has some research on HOW and when one gets the coating build up when using something like Ceratec or Archoil AR 9300 I would like a link. I know from tearing down the 325 Polaris engine after 11 hours of idle time (had a chewed up crank from being ran without oil) and we just replaced the rod inserts and went with a used connecting rod. I had just learned about Ceratec and this blown ATV engine was just a perfect test bed.The parts cost was just $100 including the gasket kit.

I know without a doubt Ceratec works as Liquid Moly states it works. I know of no reason to not use it in a new engine because ceramic coated piston rings and pistons are sometimes placed in new engines.

If you have an engine that has rings that have to 'wear-in' due to friction you have a low quality finish on moving parts and must be using an old non-detergent stash of motor oil.
smile.gif


With that being said I would put 100-2000 miles on a new engine then change oil and add Ceratec to the new motor oil. This would let the moving parts like oil pump gears, gears, etc 'wear-in' and you could drain out any new engine metal.
 
Reading all of the comments about the ceratec, i think i would be a little scared to use that stuff. Just seems a little risky. Im not sure how long people normally keep a car but why bother? Engines have been running hundreds of thousands of miles with little to no wear given proper service for the quality of lube/filter used. If someone thinks they are going to keep a vehicle for a million plus miles, might be worth it. But after so many miles, most people want something new anyway.

We have a brand new pilot, couldn't imagine putting that in the brand new engine. we did get a lifetime power-train warranty anyway. I might consider using mos2 sometime down the road for fuel efficiency.

I use the mos2 in my service van purely for fuel efficiency and I did notice enough of an improvement to keep using it.

Because of the rash of filter tears, I'm thinking of going m1ep with a fram ultra or bosch distance, then running 12k oci. Would mos2 be beneficial in this setting?
 
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?
 
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.


Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal.
I have a few problems with these types of additives today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany.
It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product.
Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune.

Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage.
I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.


Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal.
I have a few problems with these types of additives today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany.
It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product.
Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune.

Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage.
I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.




As usual you're SPOT ON!!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal. I have a few problems with these types of additives [referring to Ceratec] today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany. It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Good point. Some motor oils in the 70's and 80's were not so good. Adding MoS2 reduced parasitic heat losses, tended to fortify the oils, and provided EP lubrication if the oil actually failed. Furthermore, air-cooled engines were popular during that period and they were very hard on oil. The hotter the engine, the more likely the oil would fail, which resulted in even more engine heat. And you couldn't count on the thermostat to save you.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.

That is not as clear. If you check Liqui-Moly's product line, MoS2 is used in several of their high-end products. Furthermore, organic molybdenum is available and widely used by L-M and many other oil makers. The benefits of organic molybdenum are somewhat different, but at the very least it should reduce parasitic heat losses and provide some barrier protection. It is a thinner layer, so it may not provide start-up or 'limp home' protection.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

Yes, other additives. Plus, MoS2 turns your oil black. From a marketing standpoint, that's probably not a good thing. Plus, MoS2 may settle out of the oil, depending on the particle size. Walmart customers cannot be depended upon to 'shake well before using'.

Plus, if you were an oil company, would you really want to be advertising 'limp home' protection? When some guy runs his engine out of oil (maybe from taking a bullet, but most likely from poor or no maintenance), you probably want to distance yourself from this situation.

Originally Posted By: Trav
It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.

White graphite?????

Originally Posted By: Trav
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

By 'fall out', you are referring to settling, right? If the particles are fine enough, there should be little settling. Furthermore, MoS2 attaches itself to the metal surfaces after a period of time (say, 500 miles). Once attached, it will no longer settle out. Furthermore, it should provide excellent start-up lubrication on an engine which sits idle for long periods (MoS2 is a very popular dry lubricant and assembly lube).

Originally Posted By: Trav
There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product. Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune. Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage. I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.

Oils have gotten a bit better. MoS2 may have gotten better as well. It still provides superior EP protection (probably better than any liquid lubricant), still provides superior start-up lubrication, still reduces oil consumption by attaching itself to metal bearing surfaces. That's not too bad, all things considered. And, it still provides limp-home protection (if you take a bullet).

MoS2 may or may not be cost effective. If you were a fleet operator and could extend the OCI by 5%, that would be great. To an individual, a small OCI increase is not significant. If you plan to keep your vehicle (or at least the engine ;-) for 200,000 or 300,000 miles, MoS2 is the way to fly. But, most folks don't keep their car that long, and most modern engines will last 100k or more with very modest care.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
White graphite?????

Hexagonal Boron Nitride AKA white graphite.

I have owned an engine that went 260K Km on one brand and viscosity of engine oil from the first oil change. No additives other than what was in the Castrol RS 10w60 (the red oil).
No part was out of OEM new spec tolerances (checked with Starrett inside and outside micrometers not Plastigauge), no sludge, no varnish, nothing. The cam chain stretched thats why i had it torn down.

This engine routinely (daily) saw 9-12K RPM and 7-9K sustained RPM for hundreds of Km in the 12 years that i owned it. The bike is still running strong with the new owner, same oil and over 300K and 20 yrs old in 2012.
My little Honda CB Seven Fifty i bought new in 1993 as an around town bike has had the same RS 10w60 oil for the last 20 yrs (yearly OCI), it now has almost 100K on the clock and it runs like a Swiss watch.
I know it never had any additives in it because i still own it and no one has ever ridden it or worked on it but me.
BTW none of these use any measurable amount oil between OC.

Its not uncommon to see old MB 200 and 240D W123 cars with more than a million KM and never used any sort of additive.
How is this possible without these miracles in a can? Sorry i don't buy it, nothing i have seen proves an engine needs these wonder to live a extremely long and trouble free life.

If people want to use them thats fine by me i could care less, its not my engine or my money.
I do wonder how much money gets spent on this stuff and what real benefits do these products have that a high quality engine oil alone doesn't have.

http://sandblastingabrasives.com/hexagonal-boron-nitride-powder-order-page-781.html
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
I have owned an engine that went 260K Km on one brand and viscosity of engine oil from the first oil change. No additives other than what was in the Castrol RS 10w60 (the red oil).

Great. Castrol is good oil. I used it for years.

Originally Posted By: Trav
My little Honda CB Seven Fifty i bought new in 1993 as an around town bike has had the same RS 10w60 oil for the last 20 yrs (yearly OCI), it now has almost 100K on the clock and it runs like a Swiss watch. I know it never had any additives in it because i still own it and no one has ever ridden it or worked on it but me.

Doubly great.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Its not uncommon to see old MB 200 and 240D W123 cars with more than a million KM and never used any sort of additive.

Yup, I've seen this, too. Of course, Mercedes Benz builds reasonably good automobiles and diesel engines start out life with a few extra things going for them.

Originally Posted By: Trav
How is this possible without these miracles in a can? Sorry i don't buy it, nothing i have seen proves an engine needs these wonder to live a extremely long and trouble free life. If people want to use them thats fine by me i could care less, its not my engine or my money. I do wonder how much money gets spent on this stuff and what real benefits do these products have that a high quality engine oil alone doesn't have.

High quality oil is a great idea. Everyone should use it. Do you consider 'high quality oil' a miracle in a can?

You've made this argument before but what's the point? Sure, most folks who've worked around automobiles have seen very high mileage engines that act like they're going to run forever. Back in the 70's, I owned a Datsun 510 wagon which had 250,000 miles on the clock. Sold it to a friend who drove another 180k miles when it was finally totaled in a wreck. Should everyone buy a Datsun? Should everyone buy a Mercedes? Incidentally, the Datsun L-16 engine was a rip of a Mercedes design, so maybe the 'M word' is the key?

Most engines don't last forever. They might last 100,000 miles, or maybe even more miles, but eventually they start wearing out, or using oil or losing compression or whatever. Many times, those issues occur well before the first century. That's why repair shops and dealer shops stay in business. If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Subarus are great quality vehicles, well designed and usually well maintained (the Subaru maintenance program is ultra conservative). But if you follow any Subaru forum, there are plenty of owners who have problems with their vehicles. They start using oil. They develop a bad cylinder. Seals get flaky. Various parts fail prematurely. For at least for some of these issues, an additive might help.

In your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
in your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.

Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today. This was over 20 yrs ago.
I have nothing against additives which you would know if you were here longer.
There are situations that they may be of some benefit but in a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

Originally Posted By: dave5358
If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's?
1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
in your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.

Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today.

Maybe, maybe not. If you do even a cursory glance over the additive packages in many popular oils, about all you can conclude is that you can't conclude anything. They are all over the landscape.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I have nothing against additives which you would know if you were here longer. There are situations that they may be of some benefit but in a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

Conclusion: we should all 1) drive a Mercedes or 2) have a new engine or 3) have an engine that does not have any inherent design issues, etc and 4) use Castrol Oil. If everyone did fit into one or more of those categories, there would be far fewer debates - everyone would die of old age before their engine got flaky. In the real world, you have simply assumed away the problem.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's? 1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.

Manufacturer's give the shortest warranty they think they can get away with and still be competitive. I'll stand by my statement. I am truly impressed with Mercedes quality, but much less impressed with the other badges you listed. Advertising hype aside, they're just good cars, but mostly overrated quality-wise.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today. This was over 20 yrs ago. I have nothing against additives

What this argument boils down to is... trust the advertising hype of the oil makers. You are welcome to do that. As for me, I think the oil companies are in business to maximize profits. If, along the way, they happen to make a decent product, that's great, but it is clearly not their primary objective. Furthermore, oil companies, like cigarette makers, know that advertising dollars are much more effective in molding public opinion of their product than dollars spent on research and development. If you don't understand that, you are simply naive.

Originally Posted By: Trav
which you would know if you were here longer.

That is certainly relevant

Originally Posted By: Trav
... a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

I previously suggested you were assuming away the problem. But it's worse than that. Every engine has design flaws. If you have any doubts, just wait a year or so for the car maker to come out with a newer engine version which 'fixes' the known flaws. Subaru must have had a truckload of design flaws in their 4-cylinder boxer engine, because the list of modifications and improvements over the years is amazing.

The next time you buy a car, be sure to ask the car salesman if the vehicle of interest has any 'design flaws'.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's?
1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.

It's actually offensive to put Mercedes and VW in the same sentence, while discussing quality. If you want a quality car (well engineered, easy to maintain, last a long time, etc.), get a Toyota or Nissan or Honda.. Even Subaru made this 'best new cars' list... not bad considering the design flaws in the engine.

Or, here's an independent look at best and worst car values. BMW made this list... guess in which category? As for Auto Union, they are an interesting company which has also discovered the power of advertising.

Volkswagen made economy cars for the masses - good cars, mind you, considering their objective. Then, the VW folks started an advertising campaign to change their image. It's been very effective, but a Toyota or Nissan is better designed and better built and a better value - no real comparison. To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, 'I knew Mercedes Benz, and Volkswagen, you're no Mercedes Benz'.

If you truly believes the oil companies (or car companies) have your best interests at heart, I wish you well. I prefer to take advertising hype with a bit of skepticism.
 
But you will buy into the advertising hype of Liqui Moly or some other additive company correct?
Do i have to mention Phaeton, A8, 911, M cars, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Bentley? You need to learn the product line up and a little more about what your talking about before trying to pass off such nonsense.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
But you will buy into the advertising hype of Liqui Moly or some other additive company correct?

No, I'm not interested in the company's advertising. Some of their products, maybe. Where do they advertise, anyway?

Originally Posted By: Trav
Do i have to mention Phaeton, A8, 911, M cars, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Bentley? You need to learn the product line up and a little more about what your talking about before trying to pass off such nonsense.

Blah, blah. What's your point? Maybe we should all drive a Rolls or Bugatti? Rolls/Bentley are certainly good quality but hardly pinnacles of automotive engineering. Rolls Royce (the aircraft engine company) was one of the first to use MoS2 as an oil additive. They even recommended upper cylinder lubricant for some of their vehicles. The 911 Porsche is a glorified Volkswagen - fun to drive, really nifty car, hard to work on, but still basically a Volkswagen. Maybe you should stop name dropping and try to make a coherent point, as you pass off such nonsense.
 
More to the point, what perceived problem are you trying to fix?

What do you think oil formulators left out?
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Just say no.

Not needed and all its purpose is to separate your $$$ from you.

Bill


Funny, THIS^^^ is my stance on; booze, cancer sticks, recreational drugs (and most prescribed ones as well), and gambling (BOTH the handing it directly to Tony Soprano casino type, AND the Wall Street Gordon Gekko type), which ironically, are absolute necessities of life to very many on here, many of whom will dis and rag on ANY AND ALL oil additives every chance they get.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Just say no.

Not needed and all its purpose is to separate your $$$ from you.

Bill


Funny, THIS^^^ is my stance on; booze, cancer sticks, recreational drugs (and most prescribed ones as well), and gambling (BOTH the handing it directly to Tony Soprano casino type, AND the Wall Street Gordon Gekko type), which ironically, are absolute necessities of life to very many on here, many of whom will dis and rag on ANY AND ALL oil additives every chance they get.
wink.gif



Heh.
grin.gif


What I find funny is that one is *required* to use a product to have an opinion on it. Even though one can read information in various threads, websites, etc. The Synlube lube 4 Life crowd had the same "you don't use it so you're not allowed to express an opinion." blather.
 
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Im not even sure this is a question of durability, prevention of wear or fixing a problem. Cars running on motorcraft oil go forever with little to no wear.

Im not sure what the oil manufacturers left out but I noticed real world difference in fuel efficiency. Thats enough for me. Whether it helps the engine go another 100k or not, I don't know and it probably doesn't matter in the end. I may sell the vehicle eventually anyway. Im saving money at the pump...
 
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