2014 Subaru Forester XT - Second (early) sample

[Naito]

Follow up on my previous thread here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3336792

This sample was taken by one of the oil experts on my local forum using an oil pump, and then I directly hand delivered the sample to Wearcheck myself, so there's no risk of outside contamination.

The fuel contamination lower but still worryingly high, especially since this was an early sample taken at just 2100km after the previous change at the dealership.

Thoughts and comments please!

Quote:

Recommendations: We recommend that you drain the oil from the component if this has not already been done. We recommend an early resample to monitor this condition.

Code:


Time on Unit 83days

Time on Oil 23days

Time on Filter 23days

Mileage on Oil: 2100km

Lifetime Mileage: 7100km


Contamination:
There is a moderate amount of fuel present in the oil. Tests confirm the presence of fuel in the oil.
Code:


Prev Cur

Silicon 292 70

Potassium 0.8 1.0

Sodium 5.4 2.1

Fuel (%) 8.6 6.9

Glycol --- ---

Water (%)
Soot (%) 0 0

Sulfation (%) 65 46

Nitration (%) 46 33


Wear:
All component wear rates are normal.
Code:


Prev Cur

Iron 35 16

Nickel 0.2 0.1

Chromium 0.6 0.3

Titanium 0.1 0.1

Copper 125 21

Aluminum 8.4 4.3

Tin 2.4 0.6

Lead 4.6 0.8

Silver 0.0 0.0


Oil Condition:
Oil Type: Subaru Idematsu Synthetic 5w30
Fuel is present in the oil and is lowering the viscosity. The oil is no longer serviceable due to the presence of contaminants.
Code:


Prev Cur

Boron 193 203

Barium 9.3 1.8

Calcium 1653 1832

Magnesium 12 11

Molybdenum 622 161

Sodium 5.4 2.1

Phosphorus 627 633

Sulfur 2368 2511

Zinc 713 744

Visc 40C(cSt) 30.5 40.6

Visc 100C(cSt) 6.7 6.1

VI 186 93

Oxidation(%) 69 39



Comments and thoughts please![/quote]

 

[simple_gifts]

Oil is tagged as shot @ 1200 miles? Wow.. just wow.

At least stuff is trending down.

 

[Naito]

Not encouraging huh?

I'm considering contacting Subaru about it, especially since right now my car has still been 100% dealer serviced, might be good to make Subaru aware of these issues before I start doing my own oil changes.

 

[Brybo86]

100% short trips? id be interest to see a UOA after a good 100mile highway run

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: Brybo86
100% short trips? id be interest to see a UOA after a good 100mile highway run


Oops forgot to include that. Driving habits were unchanged for this period, still mostly 160km highways on weekends, and 40km on traffic jammed rural highways during weekdays.

The sample was taken directly from the oil fill tube using a pump with the engine idling, immediately after an approximately 27km (17 miles) drive on rural highways in clear traffic.

Next sample will probably have a lot more short trips unfortunately. I'm afraid to look

 

[JimPghPA]

How much fuel is too much? I do not know where you should draw the line, but 8.6 and 6.9 percent seems high to me. Maybe someone can give a better answer as to where to draw the line on fuel percentage. I understand that mostly short trips can cause high fuel consumption, but again how much is too much.

 

[domer10]

How did hand delivering it yourself prevent outside contamination? Are you saying when I send my sample in the mail someone is contaminating it? lol

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: domer10
How did hand delivering it yourself prevent outside contamination? Are you saying when I send my sample in the mail someone is contaminating it? lol


Not really, just that last time I had my dealership take the sample and the report said they thought they found diesel in it initially, so it was suspected that my sample was contaminated somewhere. I just thought this was a "overkill" way of ensuring that this sample was done properly =)

 

[Kuato]

What pump is being used? I'd be willing to bet it wasn't cleaned before your sample was taken, and there was some of the previous sample left in there.

I would take the next sample from the drain plug, or use a brand new pump to pull it out.

 

[rhhsiao]

Wait, are there only 7100km total on this car? If so, that translates to about 4412 total miles on this car. Since it's so early in the lifecycle, you're likely seeing a strong mix of break-in wear and some from the fuel dilution. I don't think this is a good baseline from which to draw meaningful conclusions about the use of this oil in your car.

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
What pump is being used? I'd be willing to bet it wasn't cleaned before your sample was taken, and there was some of the previous sample left in there.

I would take the next sample from the drain plug, or use a brand new pump to pull it out.


I'm not sure what pump it is, was just a little hand pump, but he's pretty much my local board's go-to guy for oil and oil analysis, I think he's worked in the industry for a long time, so I very much trust he did it right.

Originally Posted By: rhhsiao
Wait, are there only 7100km total on this car? If so, that translates to about 4412 total miles on this car. Since it's so early in the lifecycle, you're likely seeing a strong mix of break-in wear and some from the fuel dilution. I don't think this is a good baseline from which to draw meaningful conclusions about the use of this oil in your car.


yes it's very low mileage.

I'm not too concerned regarding the longevity of the oil (yet), but I'm worried about how high the fuel dilution is even after such a short interval, especially since I'm not doing multiple short trips and actually do have quite a number of long highway trips regularly.

The rest of the numbers look right for break-in?

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Naito
Originally Posted By: Kuato
What pump is being used? I'd be willing to bet it wasn't cleaned before your sample was taken, and there was some of the previous sample left in there.

I would take the next sample from the drain plug, or use a brand new pump to pull it out.


I'm not sure what pump it is, was just a little hand pump, but he's pretty much my local board's go-to guy for oil and oil analysis, I think he's worked in the industry for a long time, so I very much trust he did it right.


I am sure you have every confidence and I don't doubt he's good. But where did the diesel come from? Contamination occurred somewhere....

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Naito
Originally Posted By: Kuato
What pump is being used? I'd be willing to bet it wasn't cleaned before your sample was taken, and there was some of the previous sample left in there.

I would take the next sample from the drain plug, or use a brand new pump to pull it out.


I'm not sure what pump it is, was just a little hand pump, but he's pretty much my local board's go-to guy for oil and oil analysis, I think he's worked in the industry for a long time, so I very much trust he did it right.


I am sure you have every confidence and I don't doubt he's good. But where did the diesel come from? Contamination occurred somewhere....


The diesel report was on my previous sample. I called Wearcheck and they reran the test, the second analysis came back with the same numbers but the technician did not think it was diesel the second time, so it's possible it was just interpreted incorrectly.

 

[bluesubie]

Can you please add this to the DIT UOA sticky on the Forester board? Ironically, there's a recent posting in the PCMO forum here about whether or not fuel dilution matters.

Was the sample taken on a cold or hot engine? Subaru probably knows about this and it could be one reason that SoA shortened the interval to 6k max on the '15's. From one early adopter (first year Foz turbo) to another, I say good luck!

If you're really concerned, you might consider doing a Dyson Analysis. He spotted increased wear in the '08/'09 turbos before Subaru issued the stop sale. Subaru probably won't do anything preventative (SoA wouldn't) but you could always ask the dealer to add it to your records.

-Dennis

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Can you please add this to the DIT UOA sticky on the Forester board? Ironically, there's a recent posting in the PCMO forum here about whether or not fuel dilution matters.

Was the sample taken on a cold or hot engine? Subaru probably knows about this and it could be one reason that SoA shortened the interval to 6k max on the '15's. From one early adopter (first year Foz turbo) to another, I say good luck!

If you're really concerned, you might consider doing a Dyson Analysis. He spotted increased wear in the '08/'09 turbos before Subaru issued the stop sale. Subaru probably won't do anything preventative (SoA wouldn't) but you could always ask the dealer to add it to your records.

-Dennis


Yup will do. Sample was taken on a hot engine, oil temp was about 90-92C according to the stock multifunction display since it was just after a 20min drive averaging about 90km/h on rural highways. Was only given about 10 mins to cool before it was started again to take the sample from the engine at idle.

The recommendations always seem to suggest that any amount of fuel dilution "ruins" the oil and that it should be changed immediately. Is there any reason to think otherwise?

I plan to change oil every 5000km at the moment, that's about as frequently as I'm comfortable with. Any less and it seems a little ridiculous with modern engines and synthetic oils.

What is a Dyson Analysis?

Will send an email to SOC when I get a chance, see if they have anything to say. The dealership I got my first sample taken from also did seem to take an interest in these analysis, so I'll see what they say as well.

 

[bluesubie]

IMO, fuel dilution is a good reason to run an xW-40 (I know that xW-40's are not specified any longer).

Another option is a Euro spec 5W-30 like Mobil1 5W-30 ESP which is showing some good uoa results in WRX's. These oils have a high HTHS and thick 30 grade viscosity as well, so perhaps they will stay in grade with some fuel dilution.

http://www.dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_Analysis/Welcome.html

-Dennis

 

[domer10]

Originally Posted By: Naito
Originally Posted By: domer10
How did hand delivering it yourself prevent outside contamination? Are you saying when I send my sample in the mail someone is contaminating it? lol


Not really, just that last time I had my dealership take the sample and the report said they thought they found diesel in it initially, so it was suspected that my sample was contaminated somewhere. I just thought this was a "overkill" way of ensuring that this sample was done properly =)



Ahh, ok got ya.

 

[bigt61]

Are the rings not seating? Smell test? - at 6%, the oil should reek of fuel. Run 5W-30 for a while and get a Blackstone test.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
IMO, fuel dilution is a good reason to run an xW-40 (I know that xW-40's are not specified any longer).

Another option is a Euro spec 5W-30 like Mobil1 5W-30 ESP which is showing some good uoa results in WRX's. These oils have a high HTHS and thick 30 grade viscosity as well, so perhaps they will stay in grade with some fuel dilution.

http://www.dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_Analysis/Welcome.html

-Dennis


+1 I'm one who's running M1 ESP in my WRX. No UOA for me yet but the two we have look good. ESP 5w30 is cited as one of the best at preventing intake valve deposits by the VW/Audi DI crowd. There's a few UOAs here from an A6 3.2 owner who tried several oils before settling on M1 ESP 5w30.

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Are the rings not seating? Smell test? - at 6%, the oil should reek of fuel. Run 5W-30 for a while and get a Blackstone test.


Good question. Subaru has had issues with some naturally aspirated FB series engines where the ring gaps have lined up, causing problems. Could be the case here.

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Are the rings not seating? Smell test? - at 6%, the oil should reek of fuel. Run 5W-30 for a while and get a Blackstone test.


Good question. Subaru has had issues with some naturally aspirated FB series engines where the ring gaps have lined up, causing problems. Could be the case here.


Well the FB engine and the FA engine is surprisingly different, so I'm hoping it's not that. What exactly do you mean by ring gaps not lining up though, and what was the solution/workaround?

I'm currently still running the Idematsu 5w-30 that the dealership put in, but topped up with Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 to replace the oil that was removed during the sample.