War in Ukraine

[Mykl]

If you want a historic example of Russian military incompetence you're better off using their invasion of Finland as an example.

Not that this has anything to do with what they're capable of right now. They may be able to bully their neighbors, but if NATO gets involved it's unlikely that they'll see much continued success.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
If you want a historic example of Russian military incompetence you're better off using their invasion of Finland as an example.



And if you want a historic example of Russian military competence, see the battle Nomonhan. Thanks to that, the Imperial General Staff moved away from the Imperial Army's desire to take Siberia and its resources. Instead they moved toward, and executed, the Imperial Navy's southern strategy.

The battle was little known in the West. Especially as the invasion of Poland kicked off just a few days later.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If this is going to be a USA-vs.-Russia debate, why not stick to current realities?

If there were a conflict between America and Russia, it probably would NOT be a war to take and occupy (much) territory. It would most likely be an attack on Russia's military apparatus to undermine its ability to make war. In other words, it'd be about sinking their ships, destroying their military ports and airfields, crippling their C&C, and so on. At that point, it's just a matter of our commanders, soldiers, and hardware vs. theirs. Does anyone really think Russia could do much more than put up a valiant fight in that kind of conflict?


Yes. They're are not the Iraqi army. And does anyone *really* think the American public wants another war.

The current reality is that there is not going to be a Russo-American conflict.

 

[d00df00d]

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood: What I was getting at was that I'm pretty sure Russia would get crushed in that kind of conflict. The American military has capabilities that the Russian military can only dream of.

Then there's the rest of NATO, which would add considerable punch.

Completely agree that the American public wouldn't stand for it, though -- unless Russia attacked us directly, which they aren't remotely stupid enough to do. This is just speculation.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Completely agree that the American public wouldn't stand for it, though -- unless Russia attacked us directly, which they aren't remotely stupid enough to do. This is just speculation.


Well, Putin knows it too. This is why he will go after non-NATO countries first to avoid WW3. However, I still think WW3 is unavoidable at some point in the future. Maybe just economic/internet war?

 

[Mykl]

I'm going to guess that there's a line in Europe that would prompt US/NATO involvement if Russia attempted to cross it.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Mykl
If you want a historic example of Russian military incompetence you're better off using their invasion of Finland as an example.



And if you want a historic example of Russian military competence, see the battle Nomonhan. Thanks to that, the Imperial General Staff moved away from the Imperial Army's desire to take Siberia and its resources. Instead they moved toward, and executed, the Imperial Navy's southern strategy.

The battle was little known in the West. Especially as the invasion of Poland kicked off just a few days later.


Yep, that is one of the most important battles of WW2 and hardly talked about in western circles.

 

[LoneRanger]

Experience counts. Russia praisers like trajan can rip on the USA all they want by mocking the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and our proud military men and women's service in those conflicts, but no matter how you slice it, it amounts to a degree of battle hardening for our military and our military industrial complex in general for the past 12 or so years. Russia's only recent action is bullying helpless tiny former eastern bloc republics. Oh, and their time in Afghanistan in the 80's, where they met with much much less success than we have and eventually left in defeat. Worth saying again, Russia's military is all show and not much go. While they may have the home court advantage to fight near their homeland, they are largely ineffectual at projecting force outside of their region. And force projection is what we do. There is absolutely no doubt that in partnership with our NATO allies we could neuter Russia's military capabilities forthwith.

You want a more interesting scenario, let's talk about China moving on Taiwan. I believe we obligated ourselves to defend Taiwan at some point in the past, did we not? Now there's a sticky situation.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
And if you want a historic example of Russian military competence, see the battle Nomonhan. Thanks to that, the Imperial General Staff moved away from the Imperial Army's desire to take Siberia and its resources. Instead they moved toward, and executed, the Imperial Navy's southern strategy.

The battle was little known in the West. Especially as the invasion of Poland kicked off just a few days later.


I wasn't suggesting that Russia hasn't had its fair share of great victories throughout history. If not for Russian blood mixed with a bunch of luck, it isn't likely that Germany could have been defeated so thoroughly.

The best compliment you could give to Russia's armed forces is that they have held strong during the moments where it counted most.

But right now, if they want to take on NATO in a limited war with no nukes, they would not win.

 

[rshaw125]

As long as the US stays out. For once minding our own business I'll be happy.

 

[Tempest]

Putin has brilliantly read the mood, rational, and mind set of the West with his move. I suspect he will continue to easily outmaneuver the West for quite some time.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
As long as the US stays out. For once minding our own business I'll be happy.


Absolutely agreed!

Yes, the "Globalist" (NWO) element that has infested/infected
OUR US government for decades now is on the retreat, they are reeling from defeat after defeat (especially of the nefarious
Project for A New American Century "PNAC") agenda. The general public of the US has completely turned against them and their dubious goals. Hopefully they will be completely ousted from high offices and influence soon.

 

[uc50ic4more]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The American military has capabilities that the Russian military can only dream of.


The U.S. military also had capabilities the Viet Cong could only dream of. The Russians also had a military the Mujahideen could only dream of. Rows of tanks serve to help those who yearn to feel powerful and patriotic to beat their chests, I guess.

Here is how stuff really gets done:

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Putin has brilliantly read the mood, rational, and mind set of the West with his move. I suspect he will continue to easily outmaneuver the West for quite some time.


No invisible planes required.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The American military has capabilities that the Russian military can only dream of.


The U.S. military also had capabilities the Viet Cong could only dream of. The Russians also had a military the Mujahideen could only dream of. Rows of tanks serve to help those who yearn to feel powerful and patriotic to beat their chests, I guess.

Those comparisons would make sense if we were considering an American invasion of Russia with the purpose of subduing it. That's not what we're talking about.

IF there were military action (which we all agree is hugely unlikely and undesirable), it'd be to undermine Russia's ability to be aggressive beyond its borders. There wouldn't be an invasion or occupation. There would be reconnaisance and strikes. We'd go in, blow stuff up, and leave. That doesn't leave much scope for the kind of home-field leverage that could overcome a massive military advantage.

 

[fdcg27]

This is exactly the kind of operation I'd envision if the West comes to feel compelled to act.
The invisible planes another poster mentioned would come in mighty handy, as would sea and air launched cruise missiles.
Our nearly invisible subs could destroy the Russian fleet while it lay docked, while an effective naval blockade would starve Russia of what little remaining trade it had.
The Kremlin could be reduced to a smoking ruin, while Russian black marketeers would be begging Western Europeans to take some black market fuel.
The world banking system would also be a powerful weapon, since the West controls it.
Any movement of funds outside of Russia itself could be precluded and even internal transfers could be reduced to shuffled paper documents.
If the West ever really needs to give Russia a serious humbling, it doesn't lack the resources to do it.
The downside is that utter humiliation breeds deep resentment.
That's what sowed the seeds of the Third Reich.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The downside is that utter humiliation breeds deep resentment.
That's what sowed the seeds of the Third Reich.

Finally, a WWII/Nazi analogy that makes sense!

 

[antiqueshell]

Actually the Treaty of Versailles is often times considered the fulcrum of causing WWII in the first place.

It was a despicable and dastardly way to humiliate
the German People, which did NOT start WW I. And as you would expect what comes around goes around = blowback. Something that the elite controlling the US gov't have NOT learned, but will eventually.

And correct, if the elites in the West attempt to prevent
Russia from protecting its buffer zones, they will pay dearly.
The Russian people are survivors and I have a great deal of respect for them...this coming from someone that is of German descent.

 

[fdcg27]

Germany may not have started WW I, but Germany participated willingly in it. It was also Germany that deployed a large and effective submarine fleet and distinguished itself with such notable honors as the sinking of the Cunard passenger liner Lusitania, with the loss of many civilian passengers.
Plenty of blood on German hands in that conflict.
Today, the West basically controls all of the levers, as has been the case for the past seventy years or so.
The West can easily subjugate Russia economically and has an advanced ability to project force to subdue Russia militarily.
If the West decides to play hardball, the outcome cannot be good for Russia.
The Russian people are survivors.
For centuries, they've had no other option.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
G
Today, the West basically controls all of the levers, as has been the case for the past seventy years or so.


But they really do not.

The SU was NOT Russia, it was a state fabricated primarily by Khazarian (AshkaNAZI) elites.

The only thing the West and Israel control is a fiat money system an illusion. The illusion has worn off, and the rest of the world can see this, including Russia and China. Now those people are beginning to take their own paths, and those will often no longer be what those money changers want.

Luckily the general population in the West, including the
"American People" no longer want to fight for the interests of these western elite. We ordinary people have nothing to fear from others unless we attack them. The Grand Illusion is over.

 

[fdcg27]

That must be the reason that China holds so much of its reserves in debt denominated in the fiat currency of the US.
What do they know that you don't?
Could it be that China has more need of the US as a market than the US has of China as a supplier?
The reality is that goods only have value if there are markets to take them.
If the West as a whole has set the terms of trade, as it has, then what choice does China have?
Can they maybe barter their goods to Walmart?
You also seem to be a little confused in that the West involves a little more than the US and Israel.
Ever heard of the EU?
What about closely allied nations, like Australia, Taiwan, South Africa and almost all of South America, or don't they count?
What you refer to as fiat currencies have been the accepted payment terms for trade for many decades.
Did you ever wonder why world oil prices are always stated in dollars?
I'll give you a hint.
It isn't because the news readers made a helpful exchange rate calculation for their viewers.
And, yeah, the terms "Soviet Union" and "Russia" were always considered totally interchangable, although you seem to have forgotten the days of the USSR.