VOA of "new" orange-label GC 0w-30

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Point taken Gokhan, if I'm looking for ultimate protection for my 4ball/timken, or need to get back to town when out 4 wheeling, and need to stuff my gearbox with engine oil, I'll avoid edge...

I wouldn't take the ASTM D4172 four-ball wear test lightly. If an oil is not doing well in this test, it's not a good sign.

"This test method can be used to determine the relative wear preventive properties of lubricating fluids in sliding contact under the prescribed test conditions. No attempt has been made to correlate this test with balls in rolling contact. The user of this test method should determine to his own satisfaction whether results of this test procedure correlate with field performance or other bench test machines."

It basically measures the boundary-lubrication properties of an oil. It applies to the valvetrain as well as part of the cylinders and rings. While the materials (for wear surfaces) used in this test won't be the same as those in a particular engine and the contact pressures will be higher, it will give a good idea of the wear-protection ability of an oil. It certainly applies very well to the lubrication of flat-tappet cams.

I've never used Amsoil but somehow all UOAs I've seen with Amsoil were excellent.

This said, German Castrol wasn't included in the ten oils Amsoil tested.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
APL SL???

You know better than that!
wink.gif


Who buys GC looking for a current API specification? Beyond that, it wouldn't qualify for SN, much less GF-5.

The only people who buy GC because of the API specification are those specifically avoiding anything more recent than SL.

Disagreed. API SL is inferior to SM and SN in every aspect, especially wear protection.

M1 0W-40 satisfies more European specs than German Castrol "0W-35" while also satisfying API SN.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
German Castrol "0W-35"


This will be good...please expound on that comment.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Gokhan, GC meets MB 229.5 which has some of the most stringent wear requirements compared to any gas engine oil specification.

My point was that there are better alternatives to German Castrol. M1 0W-40 satisfies more European specs, including MB 229.5, than German Castrol for example. I've seen too many people on this board saying that they had poor UOA results with German Castrol for me not to believe that this oil is not problematic.

However, if German Castrol works for someone, giving good performance and good UOAs, it's great!
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
German Castrol "0W-35"

This will be good...please expound on that comment.

Of course, there is no such thing as SAE xW-35. It's a moniker I use for xW-30 oils that have HTHSV >= 3.5 cP because they fall in the gray area between xW-30 and xW-40, as their KV100 is greater than for a typical xW-30 but less than for a typical xW-40.
smile.gif
 
Ahhh...the "gray" area.

It's not gray, it's clearly black and white, as to what's a 20, what's a 30, and what's a 40....0W, 5W, and 10W-40s weren't 30s or 35s because their HTHS used to be 2.9 (minimum).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Ahhh...the "gray" area.

It's not gray, it's clearly black and white, as to what's a 20, what's a 30, and what's a 40....0W, 5W, and 10W-40s weren't 30s or 35s because their HTHS used to be 2.9 (minimum).

You didn't understand what I said.

Sure, there is a well-defined KV100 range. However, typical xW-30 (regular, thin variant) have KV100 < 10.5 cSt and typical xW-40 has KV100 > 13.5 cSt.

These thick xW-30s fall right in between, e.g. with KV100 = 12.2 cSt for German Castrol -- only barely thin enough not to be xW-40, which starts at 12.5 cSt. This is mostly how they have HTHSV >= 3.5 cP, not really through difficult tricks or unusual base oil or unusual VII.

Long story short, German Castrol 0W-30 and similar ACEA A3/B4 xW-30s are almost xW-40 even when their KV100 is considered, which is very close to the 12.5 cSt xW-40 minimum. This is all I meant by "xW-35", which is a SAE grade that doesn't exist but a good description of German Castrol and similar xW-30 oils.

The same goes for API CJ-4 xW-30 oils, which have HTHSV >=3.5 cP. They are also "xW-35" so to speak. There are even conventional (dino) 10W-30 HDEOs that have HTHSV >= 3.5 cP. Again, their KV100 is very close to the xW-40 range, which starts at 12.5 cSt.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You didn't understand what I said.


I did understand actually, thus my response.

a "line" is exactly that, if it's under, it's one, if it's over it's the other.

a "minimum" is exactly that, a minimum, and for HTHS was introduced to stop excessively shear thinning oils to being sold in a grade.

so if it's between KV100s, and meets the minimum specs for HTHS, then it IS in spec, there's no gray.

"typically" (and I know what you said, and understand what you mean) isn't a specification...

Throw a GF-x "specification", or an A3/B4 "specification" over a 30, and you appear to get two different animals...however that's not gray, that's simply more precise specification.
 
Well, my point is that if they did actually create a SAE 35 viscosity grade, then German Castrol and similar "thick" xW-30s would fall right into! That's why I call them xW-35.
smile.gif
 
And they would have included the early 0W, 5W,and 10W 40s....
thumbsup2.gif


when they worked out that KV100 wasn't working and needed to include HTHS, they should have gone all the way, and ditched KV100...then we'd be arguing about the oil that has the lowest KV100 for a given HTHS providing lower hydraulic friction through galleries and filter, but that would be another argument.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I've seen too many people on this board saying that they had poor UOA results with German Castrol for me not to believe that this oil is not problematic.

Maybe they ran it in an application that didn't call for such an oil? Looking at UOAs over the years, I've seen more positive results than negative.

Quote:
However, if German Castrol works for someone, giving good performance and good UOAs, it's great!
smile.gif


GC worked no better or worse than PU 5w-40 in my 530i, at least based on what can be gathered from a UOA. GC also worked well in my old Audi A4 1.8T.
 
Gokhan, GC can't meet API SN because it has too much phosphorus for an xW-30 oil. M1 0W-40 can because xW-40 and thicker grades are exempt from that phosphorus limit. I actually do prefer M1 0W-40, so "I'm just saying" for informational purposes.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Gokhan, GC can't meet API SN because it has too much phosphorus for an xW-30 oil. M1 0W-40 can because xW-40 and thicker grades are exempt from that phosphorus limit. I actually do prefer M1 0W-40, so "I'm just saying" for informational purposes.

Hey JAG, actually no, the maximum limit on phosphorus and sulfur has nothing to do with the viscosity grade. (Well, 10W-xx has a 0.6% max on sulfur as opposed to 0.5% for 0W-xx and 5W-xx but that's just a detail.)

If the SN oil is a non-ILSAC-GF-5 oil, in other words, if it's not "Resource Conserving", there is no maximum limit on phosphorus and sulfur (see Footnote 4 on Page 2). That's why Mobil 1 0W-30 can be SN while having high phosphorus -- not because it's an xW-40 grade.

They either didn't bother to test German Castrol for API SN because it's intended for Europe or perhaps it indeed cannot pass some of the API SN performance tests. One can argue for one or the other but there is no way to know.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Disagreed. API SL is inferior to SM and SN in every aspect, especially wear protection.

M1 0W-40 satisfies more European specs than German Castrol "0W-35" while also satisfying API SN.

As you well know, they aren't "aiming" at API specifications for either product. GC could theoretically exceed wear protection standards for API SM/SN, and in fact, it almost certainly does. The builder approvals that it holds call for greater wear protection than SN or GF-5. It cannot get SM or SN certification because of phosphorous limits for a 30 grade oil, whereas M1 0w-40 can, and it cannot get GF-5 certification for the same reason, plus the HTHS is too high.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
If the SN oil is a non-ILSAC-GF-5 oil, in other words, if it's not "Resource Conserving", there is no maximum limit on phosphorus and sulfur (see Footnote 4 on Page 2). That's why Mobil 1 0W-30 can be SN while having high phosphorus -- not because it's an xW-40 grade.

You're reading that wrong, and would be well served to read the original API rules on that. 0w-30 is an ILSAC grade, regardless of whether or not the oil in question is actually seeking ILSAC approval. That's the reason several API rated HM oils avoided current SM or better certification, even though they were not seeking ILSAC. 0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30 are all ILSAC grades, so if you want to get current API licensing, you must follow the API rules. They are referring to ILSAC grades, not specific oils seeking ILSAC approval.

The only way to exceed phosphorous limits for a 0w-30, 5w-30, or a 10w-30 while still having a current API specification is to have the diesel spec first, as in CJ-4/SM or CJ-4/SN.
 
OK, Garak and JAG, you guys are right about SN/GF-5 phosphorous maximum limits being enforced for xW-20 and xW-30 grades but not for xW-40 and thicker grades. I missed the word "viscosity" when I read Footnote 4: "No maximum for SN Non-ILSAC GF-5 viscosity grades."
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Thanks for the pics!

Really nice pics by the way. Did you use an SLR?


No, all pictures were taken with my cell phone

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I have another idea.
Send me a quart of the new stuff and I'll sacrifice one of my prepaid UOA kits to have it analyzed.
There's no point in doing the old stuff again, since we already have a very recent VOA of it.
Given the approvals met and that the oil remains API SL, I'd bet that not much has changed, if anything.
PM me if you're game for this.


I'm sending you a PM right now.
 
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