Fram filter: did it collapse inside?

[adreed24]

I have used Fram filters for years and I haven't had any problems, but I did notice something, that I think, was mentioned on this site.

I use Mobil 1 10W30 and I usually change the oil & filter at 5,000 miles. I noticed once, that when I went past that 5,000 mile oil change point, the oil pressure gauge needle would drop a bit. When I changed the oil & filter, the pressure would go back to normal.

Does this mean that the filter was simply too dirty, OR did the internal filter media, collapse inside?

Any ideas?

 

[MAJA]

Only way to tell is to cut open the filter.

 

[Filter guy]

wrong..

When you take your old filter off...look down the center tube area. If you can see to the bottom it didn't collapse. If you can't it did. You don't need to cut one open to see a collapsed center tube. If you change your own oil, you should do this every time. If you go to someone else to change your oil, ask to see your filter first before they drain and/or crush it.

You oil pressure is regulated at the oil pump. It could be your oil pressure regulating valve had some contaminant lodged in it. When you remove the filter, the contaminant can become dislodged and fall back into the oil pan.

It could also be the sending unit that the guage uses.

The question is..hom many miles on your car?
If you've got 30,000 or more, have you ever dropped the pan to see how much sludge you have there?

 

[Gary Allan]

I don't think that a filter would manage enough resistance or lack of it to change your perception at the gauge ..they typically aren't that accurate. I would more attribute it to the oil shearing over the duration of the OCI. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it would be harder to see the difference between it being a filter or just the viscosity change for varying temps during operation (depending on length of operation). Sure many pressure gauges appear to be fairly consistant ..but from what I've seen ..the pressure should vary a decent amount for a variety of reasons.

Simply stated, with the vast difference between cold oil and hot oil visc ..and everywhere in between ..I doubt that a filter issue, within any reasonable limits, would likely be detectable in many cases (IMHO).

It might help if you mention the engine/car that this occured on.

 

[MAJA]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
wrong..

When you take your old filter off...look down the center tube area. If you can see to the bottom it didn't collapse. If you can't it did. You don't need to cut one open to see a collapsed center tube... ...

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But you would need to cut open the filter to answer:

quote:

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Does this mean that the filter was simply too dirty

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Cutting a filter open to see inside is better than looking into the holes and guessing whats inside. But thats just my opinion, and I dont want to inflame anyone.

 

[Filter guy]

Well, if your not used to cutting filters open..how will you know what you're looking at?

True you can see the media when you cut it open.

But that has nothing to do with a collapsed center tube which is the title of your thread.

Your filter media should be dirty as it's doing what it is supposed to.

What you may want to pay attention to is how much crud is in your oil if your cut open your filter.
Take a bunch of paper towels and let the oil from inside the filter go through that. See if there are any metal particles or other debri in the oil.

Then look at the element. As long as it is intact it has filtered out stuff and kept whatever is on/in the paper out of your engine.

Your best bet is to do oil analysis and see over time what is going on in your engine.

We're just here to help...

 

[Big Jim]

Could it be that the oil is just tired and has sheared down?

 

[adreed24]

The vehicle is a 1987 Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0 liter, in-line 6 cylinder. It has 220,000 miles on it.

This condition has happened twice, but when the dirty oil and filter is changed, it goes away.

The reason I asked the question, is that I have read that Fram filters have a bit of a negative reputation, plus I thought I read something about some of the Fram filters collapsing inside.

 

[TurboLuver]

No offense, but IMO using mobil 1 and a fram is sort of an oxymoron... The center tube does not have to collapse in order for the media to come apart inside the filter.
I would say that your idea that the media is coming apart may be correct, but as others have said you should cut the filter open and check,or better yet start using another brand of filter, anything but a fram..
It has been documented that the media in the frams come apart, in fact I have a document from Cummins at home that came with my Ram 2500 that states if a fram oil filter is used on my Cummins diesel the warranty is void...

 

[adreed24]

That's interesting information.

I started using Fram filters years ago, because everyone said they were the best (maybe it was because they advertised heavily).

I never really had a serious problem, but I posted this question because I have read so many negative things about Fram filters.

If I drop Fram, who should I switch to for this Jeep?

 

[TurboLuver]

I have a 1994 Cherokee with the 4.0 H.O. and I run a purolator on mine. Actually I use Purolators on pretty much everything,with the exception of the Cummins, on which I run a Fleetguard Stratapore.
I have ran purolators on the Cummins though.(they are an accepted filter for the cummins)

 

[Asteroid]

Scare Monger, Stop putting the Boot into FRAM Oil Filters. Mobil 1 10w30 probaly the problem try Castrol 15w40 Oil for a better result......With a FRAM of course.

 

[Winston]

Your oil pressure reading has nothing to do with the quality of the filter. Even if the filter collapses you will still get the same oil pressure reading. The pressure sensor reads the pressure after the filter so it is only dependant on the the pressure losses that happen from that point on (the bearings etc). Since the oil pump is a positive displacement pump the flow through your engine will not be affected by the pressure drop across your filter or anything else.

 

[Gary Allan]

Winston appears to have it correct. Unless the pressure relief in the oil pump is opened ..the filter merely adds upstream elevation in the line pressure. The PSI on the engine side of the filter ...is ..what it is. It will vary ..but not on account of the filter.

 

[TurboLuver]

The points about the oil pressure not being reliant on the condition of the filter are all well and good, but it still cant change the fact that fram oil filters have been documented to come apart internally as well as have the canister burst causing catastophic engine failure.

 

[Filter guy]

Let's see ..you have a metal spin on filter which is spun onto a threaded post. And then it is blown off the post or bursts. Hmmmmmm. Must be the filters fault....

And how much pressure does it take to blow a filter off the threaded post or burst the can?

The filter does not regulate oil pressure.

Yet some people want to blame the filter when this rarity occurs.

As the Guinness tv ad says " Brilliant."

 

[TurboLuver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:

And how much pressure does it take to blow a filter off the threaded post or burst the can?

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I can tell you exactly how much it took to rupture the canister of a fram used on my brothers fairly expensive SBC race engine, 42psi.
We had the engine on a stand for break-in and were both standing in front of it watching the gauges when it let go. He sent the filter to fram for an explanation, they kept the filter and from the sound of it, one of your co-workers, sent a letter back saying the oil pressure had to be 300-400psi to have caused that

Funny thing is, he ran wix and or purolators the rest of that season with no problems.

 

[Filter guy]

Really? And how did you know it was 42psi?

Filter companies routinely test filters for "burst pressure".

They deliberately overpressurize filters to check to see at what point the gasket lets go or the seam on the can bursts. They have to..it's part of the specification of the filter.

Usually they "burst" at about 150-200psi for automotive applications.

For a filter to "blow" off the stud it does take 300-400 psi.

And as you're adamant that the filter blew off at 42psi..then filters would be blowing off every engine out there. Fram or whatever brand.

But Fram should have better explained better what happened in their report. As the engine was on a stand for "break in"...what happened is some contaminant lodged in the oil pressure regulating valve and kept it open. The positive displacement oil pump over pressurized the filter with an instantaneous pressure surge.

Then when the filter blew off..the air in the system caused some back pressure to the regulating valve and the contaminant dislodged and went back into the pan.

I have heard of similar conditions with heavy duty filters ( Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel) where a filter is blown off. They do not have the relief valve in the filter, it's in the head assembly, btw. It can take around 4-500 psi to blow one of those off. Mechanics have gone into the oil pump regulating valve and found chunks of metal lodged there. In some cases 2 or 3 filters blew off..while in the shop...so the mechanics cleaned out the regulating valve..and then any brand of filter would stay on.

But it's much easier to blame one brand of filter than look for the problem. Especially when the problem is so unusal as a filter blowing off.

Imo..the only way a filter would blow off the stud at 42psi is that there was no gasket in the gasket retaining ring on the new filter so the filter wouldn't seal or there was already a gasket on the mounting base that wasn't cleared away before putting on the new filter. But we'll believe your brother did check for that first.

and for your record..i've never worked for Fram or sold their product..

 

[Shannow]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
Usually they "burst" at about 150-200psi for automotive applications.

For a filter to "blow" off the stud it does take 300-400 psi.

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So how do they get the already burst filter back up to 300-400psi ?