Recent Topics
Bought the wrong oil filter.
by joegreen
10/25/14 04:42 PM
Air Filtration - Lawn Mower Engines
by lawnguy
10/25/14 03:46 PM
Berryman Chem-dip and B-12 Chemtool.
by GreeCguy
10/25/14 03:33 PM
It's Not About The Nail
by JerryBob
10/25/14 01:27 PM
Windows Scripting Tool?
by sleddriver
10/25/14 01:10 PM
calcium sulfonate quiz
by miro
10/25/14 12:50 PM
BATTERY QUESTION
by lucerne06
10/25/14 12:42 PM
Motor Brushes
by Vikas
10/25/14 12:39 PM
Car Quest Merger Results
by doitmyself
10/25/14 12:29 PM
Rental car for cheap in boston, MA mid May
by oilboy123
10/25/14 12:29 PM
Recommend a tire shop in Houston
by rainman49
10/25/14 12:28 PM
DI oil bypass filter
by Inspecktor
10/25/14 11:41 AM
Newest Members
PhxAZ, Miramonte, Rotario, ignat, aahull
51695 Registered Users
Who's Online
73 registered (BigCahuna, 2oldtommy, asand1, 69P, Bandito440, 9 invisible), 1653 Guests and 204 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51695 Members
64 Forums
221193 Topics
3497276 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#3357493 - 04/30/14 08:58 AM Oil analysis not accepted
Camprunner Offline


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 234
Loc: MA.
I was talking to a friend who is a service advisor now for Toyota and worked for Ford for many years as well. He was telling me that if you have a motor failure during your warranty time both Ford and Toyota do not accept oil analysis so they will not have your oil tested nor do they care if you had it tested yourself. He said they do care if you had your oil changes though and may or may not request to see your oil change slips or proof of oil change and at what millage. I wonder if the other auto manufactures work the same way? I found this interesting and just thought I would share.

I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?

Top
#3357499 - 04/30/14 09:01 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25927
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?

Wouldn't the oil change/purchase receipt already state the oil grade used/purchased?

Also, oils tend to shear out of grade after a few thousand miles of being in service. Doing a UOA at that point won't necessarily tell you what grade you started out with. It'll only tell you what grade/viscosity it is now, at the time of analysis.

Quote:
He said they do care if you had your oil changes though and may or may not request to see your oil change slips or proof of oil change and at what millage.

This is the basic premise of EVERY car manufacturer warranty. You must follow the maintenance schedule in order to keep warranty intact. Nothing new there, really.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3357500 - 04/30/14 09:03 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Quattro Pete]
Camprunner Offline


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 234
Loc: MA.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?

Wouldn't the oil change/purchase receipt already state the oil grade used/purchased?


Yes I guess that it would good point.

Top
#3357505 - 04/30/14 09:09 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4267
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Why on earth would they use, or want to see as proof, something that is proven to be inaccurate when one or even few samples are used?
_________________________
2006 Mazda3 2.0 - 190,000 Km
2003 Ford Focus ZX5 2.0 Zetec - 160,000Km
Both on good old dino juice smile

Top
#3357513 - 04/30/14 09:14 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Jiblet Offline


Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 102
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?

Wouldn't the oil change/purchase receipt already state the oil grade used/purchased?


Yes I guess that it would good point.


Depends if you have a stash you pick and choose from. Plus, I could assemble a collection of receipts that say someone bought some oil somewhere sometime. So if you do it yourself you won't have a dealer's receipt with date, mileage, grade, etc.

I keep a notebook with my maintenance activities, date, and mileage. Lawyers call it a contemporaneous record and say it's admissible as proof.

Top
#3357515 - 04/30/14 09:16 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
bigt61 Offline


Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 1215
Loc: Virginia
You have to really abuse an engine for a dealer to decline a repair based on oil changes, or lack thereof. Having worked for new car dealers for over 20+ years, I only saw failures when people NEVER changed their oil and basically ran the sump out of oil. Dealers get paid for warranty work and love all the work they can get. It's up to the manufacturer to deny the claim.
_________________________
92 Suburban 2500 7.4L 57k M1_5w30 4yr OCI
99 Olds Aurora 4.0L 91K M1_5w30 4yr OCI
94 Bonneville 3.8L 152k VML 5w30 2yr OCI
70 Camaro 5.7L 59k

Top
#3357516 - 04/30/14 09:16 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6805
Loc: Onondaga County
I keep track of everything in a notebook. By everything, I mean gas fills, tire rotations, etc.

I would hope that's enough. I don't expect to have any problems, but am doing maintenance per the book until powertrane warranty is up.
_________________________
'11 Focus PYB 45K
'00 Cherokee PYB 125K

Top
#3357518 - 04/30/14 09:19 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25927
Loc: Michigan
Yes, any such receipts/proof of purchase can be easily fabricated/manipulated.

For example, you could have a receipt of going for an oil change, but in fact it was one of your other cars that went in for that oil change. Some places don't list year/make/model of the car on the receipt.

Similarly, you can have a receipt of oil/filter purchase, but you may have purchased it for another vehicle in your fleet.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3357530 - 04/30/14 09:30 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Jiblet]
KD0AXS Offline


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 1220
Loc: Nowthen, MN
Originally Posted By: Jiblet
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?

Wouldn't the oil change/purchase receipt already state the oil grade used/purchased?


Yes I guess that it would good point.


Depends if you have a stash you pick and choose from. Plus, I could assemble a collection of receipts that say someone bought some oil somewhere sometime. So if you do it yourself you won't have a dealer's receipt with date, mileage, grade, etc.

I keep a notebook with my maintenance activities, date, and mileage. Lawyers call it a contemporaneous record and say it's admissible as proof.


Also depends on where you bought the oil. A receipt from store A might say "Mobil 1 5W30" and maybe even list the UPC. A receipt from store B might just say "Oil".
_________________________
2005 Ford F-350 4x4 5.4 - Maxlife 5W-20
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - PP 5W-20
2000 Saturn SC2 - Maxlife NG 10W-40
2000 John Deere 425 - Rotella T6

Top
#3357542 - 04/30/14 09:50 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: KrisZ]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33786
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Why on earth would they use, or want to see as proof, something that is proven to be inaccurate when one or even few samples are used?


Because if it turns into a lawsuit, involving lawyers who have very little knowledge in an area, it can provide perception or better that the vehicle was well maintained, that its owner kept track of it in a manner better than the typical user, and helps provide basis. It in fact worked for me when I had to sue progressive insurance. I handed their lawyers a new one when it came to both the legaleze as well as making a case. Stuff like this DID matter.

Sure, hopefully most things dont come to that, but even if not, let's say an engine throws a bearing, but one had UOA that indicated coolant in the oil, if this was reported while under warranty, whether the manufacturer accepts it or not, there still is a basis for tools being applied to ensure things were OK or not.

This likely is all much ado about nothing, since howmany engines grenade during warranty and turn into an argument over oil or whatever else? Ill bet not many.

Common sense also says that for simplicity, one should still follow vendor guidelines during warranty periods to minimize hassle...

Top
#3357573 - 04/30/14 10:15 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Quattro Pete]
MikeySoft Offline


Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 387
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
...
Also, oils tend to shear out of grade after a few thousand miles of being in service. Doing a UOA at that point won't necessarily tell you what grade you started out with. It'll only tell you what grade/viscosity it is now, at the time of analysis.
...

Sorry for being a little off topic but if oil shearing is so common, is it really that important if is still in limits when changing the oil?
_________________________
2013 Honda Accord I4 EX-L
UOAs for Old 2003 Accord

Top
#3357599 - 04/30/14 10:40 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: MikeySoft]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25927
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: MikeySoft
Sorry for being a little off topic but if oil shearing is so common, is it really that important if is still in limits when changing the oil?

Some oil shearing is normal/acceptable and all engine manufacturers factor it into the oil recommendation equation.

My response was to the OP letting him know that a UOA won't necessarily answer the question of what oil grade was put in there to begin with.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3357627 - 04/30/14 11:07 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13535
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I was talking to a friend who is a service advisor now for Toyota and worked for Ford for many years as well. He was telling me that if you have a motor failure during your warranty time both Ford and Toyota do not accept oil analysis so they will not have your oil tested nor do they care if you had it tested yourself. He said they do care if you had your oil changes though and may or may not request to see your oil change slips or proof of oil change and at what millage. I wonder if the other auto manufactures work the same way? I found this interesting and just thought I would share.

I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?


It still could be used by the owner in court if it came to that. You can always take the sample in a sterile container and decide to get it analyzed at a latter point in time. A pharmacy will give you a sterile bottle if you ask.
_________________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
1999 Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins - Rotella T6 & M1
Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

Top
#3357642 - 04/30/14 11:21 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9855
Loc: Illinois
This is just one more reason UOAs are a waste of money, with the rare exception of checking for a suspected coolant leak or other oil contamination.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 144,000 miles
M1 0-20
2007 Ford Focus 129,000 miles
M1 0-20
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF
M1 10-30 in all OPE

Top
#3357667 - 04/30/14 11:44 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15150
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^X a dozen. UOA's are tremendously over-valued here as some kind of holy grail when in reality they are just another data point at best...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3357668 - 04/30/14 11:44 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Donald]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5367
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: Donald


It still could be used by the owner in court if it came to that. You can always take the sample in a sterile container and decide to get it analyzed at a latter point in time. A pharmacy will give you a sterile bottle if you ask.


If the oil in question is not G-oil, no need for sterile container.

Top
#3357729 - 04/30/14 12:31 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: tig1]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12902
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: tig1
This is just one more reason UOAs are a waste of money, with the rare exception of checking for a suspected coolant leak or other oil contamination.

In general it's a waste of money. But if someone is driving 30-50k mostly highway miles a year, he/she may likes to do an UOA at 10-15k miles with synthetic oil to see if it can be extended to 15-25k miles, so that the OCI can be reduced to twice a year.
_________________________
'94 LS400
'00 E430
'04 S2000
"Consumerism has accustomed us to waste. But throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pop Francis

Top
#3357804 - 04/30/14 01:38 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: friendly_jacek]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13535
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Donald


It still could be used by the owner in court if it came to that. You can always take the sample in a sterile container and decide to get it analyzed at a latter point in time. A pharmacy will give you a sterile bottle if you ask.


If the oil in question is not G-oil, no need for sterile container.


I realize that but you need a container with no residue (from washing it) and its easy to get a free sterile from a pharmacy.
_________________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
1999 Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins - Rotella T6 & M1
Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

Top
#3358160 - 04/30/14 07:58 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Joenpb Offline


Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 110
Loc: San Diego, CA
Not really surprising a dealership won't accept an UOA, after all they don't know for sure what oil was tested. I found UOA to be worth the money when I changed from the recommended viscosity, thinking thicker was better. My wear metals were noticeably higher, now back to OEM spec 5w20, and all is well.

Top
#3361507 - 05/04/14 02:47 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Donald]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14644
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
I was talking to a friend who is a service advisor now for Toyota and worked for Ford for many years as well. He was telling me that if you have a motor failure during your warranty time both Ford and Toyota do not accept oil analysis so they will not have your oil tested nor do they care if you had it tested yourself. He said they do care if you had your oil changes though and may or may not request to see your oil change slips or proof of oil change and at what millage. I wonder if the other auto manufactures work the same way? I found this interesting and just thought I would share.

I would think they would want to check it to see if you were running the proper oil weight at leased?


It still could be used by the owner in court if it came to that. You can always take the sample in a sterile container and decide to get it analyzed at a latter point in time. A pharmacy will give you a sterile bottle if you ask.



After having done a number of forensic cases, here's some tips. (Disclosure - I am a non-attorney dude!)

1. Document, document, document every step with receipts and notes. Trying to do this after the fact only reduces your credibility. Even one valid scrap of paper can help your claim.

2. Do not take at face value any claims or statements made by the dealer. The only statements that hold up in court are the written guarantees and statements by the manufacturer and facts that can be documented.

3. If you think you have a valid claim, go to an attorney first with your VOAs. UOAs, and any other documentation that you have. If the attorney thinks your claim is valid or supportable, he will then make a claim against the dealer and or manufacturer.

4. If the lawyer thinks an expert witness can help your case, then someone like mwa is called in to either testify or give an assessment via an affidavit.
_________________________
Just pour the coffee and back away slowly! smile

Top
#3391201 - 06/06/14 11:58 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 3139
Loc: Northeastern MT
Very true that a single UOA isn't very valuable , except for.checking condition of the oil and arriving at the correct OCI.

But a series of them can be quite useful. Case in point for my '99 Grand Cherokee. This is one of the years the 4.0 suffered from the 0331 porous head casting. UOA showed higher than average wear and coolant. Without having the series of 3 UOAs done I might never have known and ended up on the side of the road, but was able to take action.

Further, aircraft engines are sampled and UOAs performed in commercial applications. This practice has caught many failing internals before they caused an emergency situation, and is required in many cases.


Edited by Kuato (06/07/14 12:00 AM)
_________________________
Amsoil


88 Dodge D150, 318 2wd MT 176k
04 Jeep Wrangler 2.4 MT 186k
13 F150 5.0 4x4 24k

Top
#3391334 - 06/07/14 08:54 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: tig1]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9987
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: tig1
This is just one more reason UOAs are a waste of money, with the rare exception of checking for a suspected coolant leak or other oil contamination.


+1 I have no use for them for an engine that has a stable coolant level and runs well.
In some known problem engines i might do it once in a while.
IMHO your better served putting the cost of the UOA into a better oil or a case of beer with a pizza.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3392167 - 06/08/14 12:32 PM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: SteveSRT8]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21338
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^X a dozen. UOA's are tremendously over-valued here as some kind of holy grail when in reality they are just another data point at best...


Add me to that list. It has some value very little IMO though.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3392851 - 06/09/14 09:05 AM Re: Oil analysis not accepted [Re: Camprunner]
MinamiKotaro Offline


Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 638
Loc: TN
UOAs are mostly for fun, imho. They can give you an idea of your interval being too long for that particular oil (sheared way out of grade, TBN way too low), but they don't give a good indication of wear.
_________________________
1967 VW Beetle: Mag1 5-40 Fleet/NAPA 41516
2004 Saturn Ion: PYB 10w-30/Wix 51782-XP
2014 Polaris Ranger 570: Mobil1 5-50/Wix 51356

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >