Shift Solenoid Pack on Dodge 41TE/A604

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I actually stumbled on a thread from BITOG about a 41TE rebuild.

Short story Dad calls up saying van is sluggish & not shifting gears. Bingo! Limp mode.

The Snap-On tool says Circuit Error on 2-4 Solenoid. It will not clear so I assume internal fault which when researching states buy a new "Shift Solenoid Pack".

Arrived yesterday from Ebay among all things as a Mopar OEM part. Cheap price too.

Dad doesn't want to take on the task himself so a garage will be installing it. I am pretty confident this will fix it but just wanted to throw it out there in BITOG land.
 
I thought about that because of the connector it uses.

I also think it is leaking and is the reason he is loosing ATF so hopefully it will fix both.

Van is at 140k so the trans is at the end of it's life anyway.

I told him it is time but financially he doesn't want to/can't.
 
I've done the swap. $97 part via amazon. 1 bolt for the harness. 3 bolts for the solenoid pack. lift out, dress the gasket, install new.

where it gets complicated is preventing dirt from entering. darn near impossible to clean it out enough so that stuff doesn't fall in the exposed passages as you remove the pack.

My shifting did improve, though the trans balked at first at the new pack. I suspect some of the dirt got in there and made other things worse. Either way, the end result was slightly improved even though the fix I was looking for didn't quite happen.

If you can REALLY clean that area up first, it's an easy job.
 
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
I also think it is leaking and is the reason he is loosing ATF so hopefully it will fix both.


Please explain how a bad solenoid can cause an external leak. Normally they are completely inside the transmission mounted to the valve body.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
I also think it is leaking and is the reason he is loosing ATF so hopefully it will fix both.

Van is at 140k so the trans is at the end of it's life anyway.


Then you have very low expectations. My Escort has over 220K miles and still has it's original 1995 automatic transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: meep
I've done the swap. $97 part via amazon. 1 bolt for the harness. 3 bolts for the solenoid pack. lift out, dress the gasket, install new.

where it gets complicated is preventing dirt from entering. darn near impossible to clean it out enough so that stuff doesn't fall in the exposed passages as you remove the pack.

My shifting did improve, though the trans balked at first at the new pack. I suspect some of the dirt got in there and made other things worse. Either way, the end result was slightly improved even though the fix I was looking for didn't quite happen.

If you can REALLY clean that area up first, it's an easy job.


I said I'd try it with copious amounts of brake clean & degreaser but he wants a shop to do it.

Curious what was the fix you were looking for? Shift quality improvements?
 
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
I also think it is leaking and is the reason he is loosing ATF so hopefully it will fix both.


Please explain how a bad solenoid can cause an external leak. Normally they are completely inside the transmission mounted to the valve body.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
I also think it is leaking and is the reason he is loosing ATF so hopefully it will fix both.

Van is at 140k so the trans is at the end of it's life anyway.


Then you have very low expectations. My Escort has over 220K miles and still has it's original 1995 automatic transmission.


I'm not sure the exact leak path, but the solenoid pack CAN cause leaks on a 41TE. The pack is replaceable from outside the tranny (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aSc4SwXF9g), so there is a path for fluid to leak through the pack. And regarding the low expectations: see the part about it being a 41TE. See the part about it being a minivan (heavy vehicle). See the part about it being a 41TE IN A MINIVAN. Never was a great combination, and 200k miles on the far side of the bell curve. 150k is more common, and in the first years (1989-1992) 50k miles was all too common.
 
FWIW his is a 2000 3.0V6 Grand Caravan that already had it's TCM replaced under warranty years back.

Ya if the engine/trans makes it to 200k before the body dies I'd be impressed.
 
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223


Curious what was the fix you were looking for? Shift quality improvements?


my 4->3 downshift wants to tear the engine off the mounts. it slams so hard the instrument panel sometimes flickers. My 1-2 upshift was also pretty bad.

the new unit made a big difference in the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts but unfortunately didn't help 4-3. 4-3 is probably a low pressure problem or a wor accumulator problem. I have found a solution of using a little lubeguard red to soften the impact of the shift (it makes it slip but did NOT remove the "bang") and then thickening the fluid with 1/2 quart of lucas-- which took a lot of edge off the "bang" but alone still had a notable slam into gear. just one of the additives alone didn't fix. Needed just the right amount of both. It's been consistent ever since I got those in just right, and passengers don't notice. The only thing you'll notice is it slips a little as it upshifts to 4th when driving relaxed. Considering the two additives, and a sump full of amsoil, I doubt I'll change fluids again before the unit fails. That said, it has been consistent, driven weekly (spare car) but also out of town on road trips, and it hasn't missed a beat.

This is by far the hottest running trans I've ever known. 180-210F if it's been running for an hour and the A/C is on. 160-180 if no A/C.
 
Originally Posted By: meep


This is by far the hottest running trans I've ever known. 180-210F if it's been running for an hour and the A/C is on. 160-180 if no A/C.


That's one of the gripes with the 41TE, and also why it tends to turn in pretty bad fuel economy in some smaller vehicles that theoretically should do better (eg. the PT Cruiser). It has a lot of internal loss- the 40TES and 41TES versions addressed that by re-introducing the concept of variable line pressure- the original 41TE had a constant (high) line pressure, so the pump was always compressing fluid to the highest pressure the trans needed and the VDC solenoids bled it down to the desired pressures- pretty lossy. Throw in the weight of a van and the TC heat that generates, and you get a pretty hot-running unit.

But as tempting as it is to knock the 41TE for its faults, you gotta remember it was the first fully-electronic adaptive auto trans ever mass-produced- first used in the 1989 model year. Most of the other early full-electronic automatics were pretty lossy as well. The Aisin AW4 used in 1990s Cherokees and some Supras may be very reliable (much more than the 41TE), but is also a real energy-soaker. My AW-4 consistently Cherokee got 3-5 mpg less than my stick Cherokee did, even though the stick was a 4x4 and the AW4 was just a 2wd.
 
I had a 3.6l Charger as a rental and it read out transmission temp.

Now unless there is some internal fault I don't know about that entire drivetrain never read below 190F during this past winter.

Coolant was past 190F but that is expected, not the oil & trans temps...especially when it is 25F outside. I couldn't wrap my mind around that one.

I wonder what heat is being generated in the trans now running around with an unlocked TC in 2nd gear all the time. He still drives it to work which is about 15-20 miles away. I told him to stay off the highway though. Now that I think about it, it did bang into OD and 2nd a few times in the past. Probably an indication of things to come.
 
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Thermo, have you put in a SG to watch your Scion? I think you might be surprised... On my Tundra there is two temp sensors, one appears to be pan and the other convertor outlet. For some reason the pan one refuses to read anything; but the convertor outlet one does. It reads about 190 locked up. But unlocked I've seen as high as 230. I haven't seen it climb higher than that though.

I can't speak for the Dodge but mine brings coolant to the trans to heat it up intentionally. It's not a cooler in the radiator, like what others do; on mine, since I have the tow package there is an aux cooler in front of the radiator too, but it has a thermostat with an unknown temperature setting.

I don't get it either; they want the fluid good and hot. I guess there is less drag--think of all the clutches and brakes, and how much they must drag (when not engaged). Seems like an indication of waste heat.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: meep


This is by far the hottest running trans I've ever known. 180-210F if it's been running for an hour and the A/C is on. 160-180 if no A/C.


That's one of the gripes with the 41TE, and also why it tends to turn in pretty bad fuel economy in some smaller vehicles that theoretically should do better (eg. the PT Cruiser). It has a lot of internal loss- the 40TES and 41TES versions addressed that by re-introducing the concept of variable line pressure- the original 41TE had a constant (high) line pressure, so the pump was always compressing fluid to the highest pressure the trans needed and the VDC solenoids bled it down to the desired pressures- pretty lossy. Throw in the weight of a van and the TC heat that generates, and you get a pretty hot-running unit.

But as tempting as it is to knock the 41TE for its faults, you gotta remember it was the first fully-electronic adaptive auto trans ever mass-produced- first used in the 1989 model year. Most of the other early full-electronic automatics were pretty lossy as well. The Aisin AW4 used in 1990s Cherokees and some Supras may be very reliable (much more than the 41TE), but is also a real energy-soaker. My AW-4 consistently Cherokee got 3-5 mpg less than my stick Cherokee did, even though the stick was a 4x4 and the AW4 was just a 2wd.


That's good to know about the unmodulated line pressure. helps me understand what I'm dealing with. I'm actually a vast-minority closet fan of the 41TE and family. They've got a bad rap but alot of that was transition from one-size-fits-all fluid culture to everything-is-specialized-fluid. It's unfortunate that there are a couple of stupid little weak spots in them that can shorten their lifespan before any of the hard parts wear. I've owned two 41TEs, and never had any unexpected problems with them, considering their use and history. Also two 41-family units (I don't remember the weird lettering for longitudinal but still FWD....) in a couple of LHSs that never saw maintenance--- one outlasted the car at 200k and the other is going strong around 125,000. They also are very consistent, quick, and positive shifters when maintained. The first one I had saw towing duty well beyond its rating and never missed a beat. This one was never maintained by what I can tell, and is still a reliable unit, just a little balky at its age.

I loved the AW4 in the early year 1993 GC I once owned. sucker had some miles on it and kept going. also a fav. but yeah, it ran pretty hot too.

Helped a buddy pull an AW4 from his FJ60 a short while ago. he's had bad luck with AAMCO keeping it 8 weeks and no work done. We are considering buying some tools and trying a rebuilt at home....
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Thermo, have you put in a SG to watch your Scion? I think you might be surprised... On my Tundra there is two temp sensors, one appears to be pan and the other convertor outlet. For some reason the pan one refuses to read anything; but the convertor outlet one does. It reads about 190 locked up. But unlocked I've seen as high as 230. I haven't seen it climb higher than that though.

I can't speak for the Dodge but mine brings coolant to the trans to heat it up intentionally. It's not a cooler in the radiator, like what others do; on mine, since I have the tow package there is an aux cooler in front of the radiator too, but it has a thermostat with an unknown temperature setting.

I don't get it either; they want the fluid good and hot. I guess there is less drag--think of all the clutches and brakes, and how much they must drag (when not engaged). Seems like an indication of waste heat.


No but your thread about it here on your Tundra did get me interested. I may purchase one in the future. I missed out on a sale Amazon had a while back or I would have it now.
 
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
I actually stumbled on a thread from BITOG about a 41TE rebuild.

Short story Dad calls up saying van is sluggish & not shifting gears. Bingo! Limp mode.

The Snap-On tool says Circuit Error on 2-4 Solenoid. It will not clear so I assume internal fault which when researching states buy a new "Shift Solenoid Pack".

Arrived yesterday from Ebay among all things as a Mopar OEM part. Cheap price too.

Dad doesn't want to take on the task himself so a garage will be installing it. I am pretty confident this will fix it but just wanted to throw it out there in BITOG land.


Yep solenoid pack replacement on the 41TE is common imo.
 
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