Low SAPS and engine protection

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I've been doing a bit of reading and need to get my head around this post:

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
There is a lubrication engineer on another forum that I frequent. He works on performing the actual tests on oil in order to determine compliance with some of the Euro mfg specs. He claims that the low SAPS versions of the oils do in fact result in more engine wear (less protection), however, it's still low enough that it meets the required spec.

So basically, the low SAPS versions just barely meet the wear limits while the full SAPS versions don't come anywhere near the limit.

I asked him whether you'd actually see a noticeable difference between the two over the life of the engine. He said that by 200K miles you would.


When you look on the Lubrizol performance chart, the wear protection on low SAPS spec oils appear to be on par with mid to high SAPS - e.g. if you compare MB Sheet 229.5 and 229.5 or BMW LL-01 to BMW LL-04. Thoughts?
 
It's the "P" in SAPS that is the suspect here. Reduction in Phosphorous means reduction in ZDDP, which could mean less wear protection if the oil is not supplemented with another anti-wear additive.
 
^+1
Depends whether they get the low P by leaving stuff out, or substituting it with (more expensive) replacements.
 
Then how come Zinc free Fuchs GT1 0w-20 always giving us the best UOA wear results? I have seen cars have done 200000kms+ with Castrol GTX API SM and ILSAC GF4.
 
Certain engines yes more wear such as flat tappet cam designs.
But modern OEM engines with standard as it is from the factory no dramas using LOW SAPS engine oils.
My experience with GM and Hyundai and Toyota engines.
 
Originally Posted By: toyota62
Then how come Zinc free Fuchs GT1 0w-20 always giving us the best UOA wear results? I have seen cars have done 200000kms+ with Castrol GTX API SM and ILSAC GF4.


As stated there are alternatives to zinc based anti wear packages so it depends how the oil is formulated.

A good example is hydraulic oil formulations. Basic hydraulic oils (low cost) generally have a zinc AW package. However the premium ones that cost more usually use a zinc free AW additive package. And you can always use a Zinc free AW hydraulic oil in place of a zinc one.

I think the argeument with engine oils is by how much do some oils exceed the minimum requirements. Dx1 oils have a much higher antiwear requirement than a basic SN/GF-5 5w30 but I'm sure a lot of non Dx1 formulations out there are just as good.
 
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Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
When you look on the Lubrizol performance chart, the wear protection on low SAPS spec oils appear to be on par with mid to high SAPS - e.g. if you compare MB Sheet 229.5 and 229.5 or BMW LL-01 to BMW LL-04. Thoughts?

As mentioned, the actual official spec wear limits are exactly the same. What that guy was saying is that high SAPS oils offer significantly more protection than what the official limits call for. Whereas low SAPS oils are just barely within the limit.

Anyway, I am just a messenger. Potentially the differences in wear in real life aren't as big as he claims them to be.
 
I don't know that we saw anything abnormal when running low saps in our vw NOT specced for this type of oil.

Had I not pulled a sample and seen that tbn was nearly gone, we could have gotten into a corrosive regime that could have been mistaken for wear.

I think it has been proven well enough that lower zddp doesn't are much of a difference in most newer engines. But if the adds don't maintain the chemistry correctly, then we do have an issue...
 
Originally Posted By: supercity
Originally Posted By: toyota62
Then how come Zinc free Fuchs GT1 0w-20 always giving us the best UOA wear results? I have seen cars have done 200000kms+ with Castrol GTX API SM and ILSAC GF4.


As stated there are alternatives to zinc based anti wear packages so it depends how the oil is formulated.

A good example is hydraulic oil formulations. Basic hydraulic oils (low cost) generally have a zinc AW package. However the premium ones that cost more usually use a zinc free AW additive package. And you can always use a Zinc free AW hydraulic oil in place of a zinc one.

I think the argeument with engine oils is by how much do some oils exceed the minimum requirements. Dx1 oils have a much higher antiwear requirement than a basic SN/GF-5 5w30 but I'm sure a lot of non Dx1 formulations out there are just as good.


Have you guys used the Fuchs 0w-20 oil in any of your vehicles in OZ ?
 
Thanks for all the input.

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
As mentioned, the actual official spec wear limits are exactly the same. What that guy was saying is that high SAPS oils offer significantly more protection than what the official limits call for. Whereas low SAPS oils are just barely within the limit.

Anyway, I am just a messenger. Potentially the differences in wear in real life aren't as big as he claims them to be.


Sorry, Pete - I wasn't trying to point the finger. I didn't want to hijack the other person's thread, so I started a new one.

The reason I got curious is because I recently switched to M1 ESP 5W-30 after seeing the VOA results posted by one of our Russian members. The low NOACK was what really got my attention at 5.6%, and having checked all the specs out on Lubrizol's page, I decided it was the way to go - especially given that I'm burning fuel with a sulfur content of 10 ppm. The manual calls for ACEA A3-02 as a bare minimum, but also assumes I'm running high sulfur fuel. Low SAPS was a step in a different direction. Interesting thing is, M1 ESP meets the requirements of the API and ACEA low SAPS specs, but the approvals are all from manufacturers.

Having said that, the engine (GM LL8) runs quieter and feels smoother than it did with M1 0W-40. It's also more responsive. Some may attribute that to going down a grade from a 40 weight to a 30 weight, but ESP 5W-30 is closer to a 40 weight than it is 30 - especially with the HTHS being just shy of 3.6.
 
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Thanks for all the input.

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
As mentioned, the actual official spec wear limits are exactly the same. What that guy was saying is that high SAPS oils offer significantly more protection than what the official limits call for. Whereas low SAPS oils are just barely within the limit.

Anyway, I am just a messenger. Potentially the differences in wear in real life aren't as big as he claims them to be.


Sorry, Pete - I wasn't trying to point the finger. I didn't want to hijack the other person's thread, so I started a new one.

The reason I got curious is because I recently switched to M1 ESP 5W-30 after seeing the VOA results posted by one of our Russian members. The low NOACK was what really got my attention at 5.6%, and having checked all the specs out on Lubrizol's page, I decided it was the way to go - especially given that I'm burning fuel with a sulfur content of 10 ppm. The manual calls for ACEA A3-02 as a bare minimum, but also assumes I'm running high sulfur fuel. Low SAPS was a step in a different direction. Interesting thing is, M1 ESP meets the requirements of the API and ACEA low SAPS specs, but the approvals are all from manufacturers.

Having said that, the engine (GM LL8) runs quieter and feels smoother than it did with M1 0W-40. It's also more responsive. Some may attribute that to going down a grade from a 40 weight to a 30 weight, but ESP 5W-30 is closer to a 40 weight than it is 30 - especially with the HTHS being just shy of 3.6.


My car also feels more easily to rev with Castrol 0W30 or M1 ESP 5W30 then with M1 0W40. Key is in HTHS. M1 5W30 ESP has same HTHS as Castrol 0W30, 3.58. M1 0W40 has 3.8.
On other note, my engine with both Castrol 0W30 and M1 ESP 5W30 feels smoother then with 0W40.
I did UOA on M1 ESP, and it turned out good.
 
Falcon_LS,

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS

Having said that, the engine (GM LL8) runs quieter and feels smoother than it did with M1 0W-40. It's also more responsive. Some may attribute that to going down a grade from a 40 weight to a 30 weight, but ESP 5W-30 is closer to a 40 weight than it is 30 - especially with the HTHS being just shy of 3.6.


Can you tell us how did it go in a long term? Are you still using low SAPs oils in your engine?

The reason I am following this thread is that I have more or less the same conditions as you: I live in a place where the petrol has low sulfur levels and most of the oils sold in Europe are now low/mid SAPs only.

My engine (MR20DE) specs A3, A1, A5, C2 and C3 so I am very interested in the results of your experiment
smile.gif
 
It depends upon a particular product. I had some mixed experience with C2 oils in HDI, but on other hand there is a million of cars in EU that use low SAPS oil for years now without issues. My firms 09 1.5 dci clocked 400k other day, supposedly flawed engine, and mostly on C3 oils. It works as NEW.

I think HT-HS has bigger impact on engine protection than SAPS levels. Overhead cam designs, even flat tappet ,doesn't require high amounts of phosphorus. There's also more organic compounds present in Cx oils (supposedly).
 
The biggest issue I have with low/mid saps oils is running out of anti-oxydants before the end of the oci.... but that highly depends on the driver and his useage of the car
 
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
It depends upon a particular product.


I am thinking of switching to Castrol EDGE 5W-30 which seems to be a bestseller on German Amazon: http://www.amazon.de/Castrol-Engine-5W-3...ds=castrol+5w30

Castrol is selling in Europe only low SAPS 5W-30 version of the Edge, the spec is: MB 229.31 / 229.51, VW AUDI 504 00 / 507 00, Porsche C30, ACEA C3, BMW Longlife 04

Right now my choice is between Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4 and Castrol Edge 5W-30 and I don't know if Magnatec is better with it's A3/B4 spec than the Edge which is C3. According to all ads the Edge is better, but yet we are still discussing it here
smile.gif


P.S. I went through four versions of Castrol lube match sites (the french, the swiss, the german and the austrian): they all suggest 5W-30 Edge low saps
smile.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
It depends upon a particular product.


I am thinking of switching to Castrol EDGE 5W-30 which seems to be a bestseller on German Amazon: http://www.amazon.de/Castrol-Engine-5W-3...ds=castrol+5w30

Castrol is selling in Europe only low SAPS 5W-30 version of the Edge, the spec is: MB 229.31 / 229.51, VW AUDI 504 00 / 507 00, Porsche C30, ACEA C3, BMW Longlife 04

Right now my choice is between Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4 and Castrol Edge 5W-30 and I don't know if Magnatec is better with it's A3/B4 spec than the Edge which is C3. According to all ads the Edge is better, but yet we are still discussing it here
smile.gif


P.S. I went through four versions of Castrol lube match sites (the french, the swiss, the german and the austrian): they all suggest 5W-30 Edge low saps
smile.gif


Volodymyr hi,
ACEA sequence for C3 oil actually surpasses A3/B3 spec in some areas. It's the same for A3/B4. For your Nissan I wouldn't hesitate to use C3 oil, but would suggest to NOT use C2/C1 oils.
You have to understand that in Euro talk C2/C3 are "normal" SAPS oils, and only C1/C4 are really low SAPS. Old school A3/H4 have their place still in older equipment for various reasons ( worn out injectors, old fuel trimmings, very long OCI for commercial equipment).
Between those two oils you have mentioned I would give edge to the Edge. Friend used it in a Cooper S for a while. Good oil.

So It's up to you. Use either A3/B4 or C3. Both will work great on reasonable OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri
It depends upon a particular product.


I am thinking of switching to Castrol EDGE 5W-30 which seems to be a bestseller on German Amazon: http://www.amazon.de/Castrol-Engine-5W-3...ds=castrol+5w30

Castrol is selling in Europe only low SAPS 5W-30 version of the Edge, the spec is: MB 229.31 / 229.51, VW AUDI 504 00 / 507 00, Porsche C30, ACEA C3, BMW Longlife 04

Right now my choice is between Castrol Magnatec 5W-30 A3/B4 and Castrol Edge 5W-30 and I don't know if Magnatec is better with it's A3/B4 spec than the Edge which is C3. According to all ads the Edge is better, but yet we are still discussing it here
smile.gif


P.S. I went through four versions of Castrol lube match sites (the french, the swiss, the german and the austrian): they all suggest 5W-30 Edge low saps
smile.gif


Volodymyr hi,
ACEA sequence for C3 oil actually surpasses A3/B3 spec in some areas. It's the same for A3/B4. For your Nissan I wouldn't hesitate to use C3 oil, but would suggest to NOT use C2/C1 oils.
You have to understand that in Euro talk C2/C3 are "normal" SAPS oils, and only C1/C4 are really low SAPS. Old school A3/H4 have their place still in older equipment for various reasons ( worn out injectors, old fuel trimmings, very long OCI for commercial equipment).
Between those two oils you have mentioned I would give edge to the Edge. Friend used it in a Cooper S for a while. Good oil.

So It's up to you. Use either A3/B4 or C3. Both will work great on reasonable OCI.

Just to be clear, Magnatec is HC oil, while Edge is one step higher, having probably mix of GR III and IV and some other more sophisticated additives.
If it is between Magnatec and Edge, go for Edge.
 
Jetronic,

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
make sure the magnatec isn't A3/B4 C3 rated... it'll not be full saps then...


Thank you for the hint. I am positive that the Magnatec is not A3/B4/C4 rated, as in this case it would not have the MB 229.3 spec. Here is a list of full specs:

CASTROL MAGNATEC 5W-30 A3/B4:
API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
BMW Longlife-01
MB-Freigabe 229.3
Renault RN0700

Taken from http://www.castrol.com/de_de/germany/pro...l-magnatec.html
 
Hello chrisri,

Originally Posted By: chrisri

Volodymyr hi,
ACEA sequence for C3 oil actually surpasses A3/B3 spec in some areas. It's the same for A3/B4. For your Nissan I wouldn't hesitate to use C3 oil, but would suggest to NOT use C2/C1 oils.
You have to understand that in Euro talk C2/C3 are "normal" SAPS oils, and only C1/C4 are really low SAPS. Old school A3/H4 have their place still in older equipment for various reasons ( worn out injectors, old fuel trimmings, very long OCI for commercial equipment).
Between those two oils you have mentioned I would give edge to the Edge. Friend used it in a Cooper S for a while. Good oil.

So It's up to you. Use either A3/B4 or C3. Both will work great on reasonable OCI.


Sorry, I forgot that ACEA C3 is in fact a mid-SAPS oil. Yes, I do not consider the C1/C2 oils, only C3 due to identical HTHS as in A3.

I can see guys that you are suggesting to use Edge 5W-30 (ACEA C3) over Magnatec 5W-30 (A3/B4). Would you still suggest to use Edge over Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 or Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30? My OCI is every 12'000 km.

The specs are:

Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 (made in Netherlands):

API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B4-10
MB-229.5
GM LL-A-025, LL-B-025
VW 502.00 and 505.00
BMW LL-01
Empfohlen für Fiat 9.55535.G1

Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30:

API SL/CF
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4
BMW LL-01
MB-Freigabe 229.5, 226.5
VW 502.00/505.00
Renault RN0700, RN0710
 
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