As If Nitrogen Filling Is Special?

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Be careful here. The rubber on the inside is a usually a halobutyl which not only has good air retention properties, but also has different age deterioration properties than the rubber on the outside.

I know, I know. You're asking why don't they use that type of rubber everywhere in a tire? 1) because it is expensive, and 2) because you can't get the right properties out of that type of rubber.

Interesting to know, but I certainly would understand why different compounds are in different components of the tires. But, I believe my point still stands. The outside is subject to a different environment, particularly when it comes to UV exposure. With respect to the insides, what are we worried about with "normal" air? It's not like we're filling the things with ozone. The humidity is an issue but there is usually some moisture introduced with mounting, regardless of whether or not nitrogen or compressed air was used. In my experience, wheel corrosion has been localized at the beads.

 

[SHOZ]

Well that's it. I'm adding a tablespoon of veggie oil and hoping that as the O2 leaks out sooner or later all my tires will be shiny and new looking inside full of the N2s.

 

[Volvohead]

Reminds me of the Ford ad a few years back where the woman is told the tires require Canadian air.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I think that, when internal failures have occurred, and specifically in the Bridgestone/Ford Explorer episode, it was due to a combination of age, relatively high speed operation, and relatively high ambient temperatures. In the Ford/Bridgestone episode, unusually low tyre pressures recommended by Ford, and sub-par tyre construction at one Bridgestone plant, were additional factors.

Although it has a rugged, outdoor lifestyle, I doubt your average seed drill will see much high speed operation on the freeway.

I don't think nitrogen would have prevented the Ford Explorer business. And certainly, the seed drill doesn't get any high speed operation, but the insides of a tire do last fairly long. The environmental concerns a tire faces are mostly on the outside, particularly with the sun.

Of course, temperature issues are different, but nitrogen isn't going to magically prevent a tire from facing temperature issues.


http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/techinfo/Ford%2520Baldwin%2520TireAging%2520%25232.pdf

Paper on oxidative tyre failure (Its specific to tread separation, but the conclusions may be generalisable)

N filling is mentioned towards the end. They find a 70% reduction in rubber degradation compared to air, so there's reason to believe it could extend tyre life IF you didn't normally wear out your tyres, which of course most people do.

Animation of internal oxidative tyre failure. Scroll down to the middle. Its a bit slow, but then so's internal oxidative tyre failure.

www.safetyresearch.net/safety-issues/tires/

While N won't reduce temperature, oxygen and temperature interact positively, so, if the oxygen is reduced, one might expect the effects of elevated temperature will be too.

Of course this isn't the whole story, and its importance is probably overstated in that document. In particular, the "real world" data correlating tyre failure with age is, at least by implication, interpreted as an oxidative ageing effect, ignoring the fact that tyres are extensively abused in service, notably by under-inflation.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
http://tirenitrogen.typepad.com/techinfo/Ford%2520Baldwin%2520TireAging%2520%25232.pdf

Paper on oxidative tyre failure (Its specific to tread separation, but the conclusions may be generalised)

N filling is mentioned towards the end. They find a 70% reduction in rubber degradation compared to air, so there's reason to believe it could extend tyre life IF you didn't normally wear out your tyres, which of course most people do.......


The problem with John Baldwin's paper is that the connection between peel strength and tire failures has not been established - that is, there are other factors involved, some of which are at least as important as the rubber properties. Put a different way, the placement and thickness of the various rubber components is at least as important as the rubber itself.

Originally Posted By: Ducked
.........Animation of internal oxidative tyre failure. Scroll down to the middle. Its a bit slow, but then so's internal oxidative tyre failure.

www.safetyresearch.net/safety-issues/tires/

While N won't reduce temperature, oxygen and temperature interact positively, so, if the oxygen is reduced, one might expect the effects of elevated temperature will be too.

Of course this isn't the whole story, and its importance is probably overstated in that document. In particular, the "real world" data correlating tyre failure with age is, at least by implication, interpreted as an oxidative ageing effect, ignoring the fact that tyres are extensively abused in service, notably by under-inflation.


First, this web site is sponsored by a law firm specializing in civil law suits. Anything they advocate should be suspect as self serving.

Second, the video has some errors in it (and I am surprised by that), but the take away is that they state things as black and white when they are decidedly shades of gray. In particular, temperature is more important in the changing rubber properties than minimizing the affect of oxygen.

For example, it is well known that the state with the worst separation rate is Arizona - and 4 out of the top 5 are in that vicinity. You'd think that the state legislatures in the southwest would pass a law requiring tires to be removed at a certain age - and not one has done so.

Further, the US federal government can't require that because a) they can only deal with interstate traffic, so this has to be done at the local level, and b) the results for states in cold weather climates (like ND, WI, MN, etc) is quite different, so having a time limit that works for AZ, unnecessarily penalizes people in ND.

So while it is true the N2 will reduce the affects oxygen has on rubber, the affects are rather small and I don't think it is worth the cost. If someone gets N2 free, great! But I don't recommend paying for it.

 

[Garak]

In addition to your reply on the matter, I'm sure a dry source of air helps, too. Should we all revert to tubes?

 

[Ducked]

Seems reasonable.

Here its supplied free by many tyre sellers, I think for as long as you keep those tyres, so, if I survive the sunflower-oil experiment and get new tyres I'll probably do that. However, I may get used tyres, depending on the numbers.

Its free from Costco if you have a Costco card, irrespective of whether you bought tyres from them. My GF had a Costco card but I never bothered to get the tyres filled, and she's given it up now.

A Ford dealer I know tells me they have a "club" for N filling with a one-off lifetime fee equivalent to about $3 US. Not exactly free, but pretty close. They might not want the embarrassment of my car being seen on the premises though.

 

[Ducked]

Re tubes, I've had them fitted when I had a rim sealing problem, and they are still popular with people who drive in Third World conditions, though I know many people disapprove of them.

IF moisture (or oxygen) was a problem I suppose tubes would have some protective effect for tyres and wheels. Maybe those internal tyre-sealing goops might help too.

 

[Shannow]

Stems on tubes don't seal to the rim, and if the tube is fitted for another defect, water mud and junk is getting in (to a greater or lesser extent)

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Re tubes, I've had them fitted when I had a rim sealing problem, and they are still popular with people who drive in Third World conditions, though I know many people disapprove of them.

On some of the agricultural equipment, we did have to use tubes, even when using a retired, tubeless taxi tire. Some of the wheels on the equipment could not readily be changed out to tubeless rims, so a tube was used. At four or five mph, we weren't concerned.

Nitrogen is getting more common in Canada, but it's still not as readily available or as cheaply available as in the States. Besides, I like to be able to fill my own tires, and I'm not buying some obscenely expensive equipment. I also do some really weird hours, so finding compressed air at 3:00 a.m. is difficult enough, let alone pure nitrogen.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I think that, when internal failures have occurred, and specifically in the Bridgestone/Ford Explorer episode, it was due to a combination of age, relatively high speed operation, and relatively high ambient temperatures. In the Ford/Bridgestone episode, unusually low tyre pressures recommended by Ford, and sub-par tyre construction at one Bridgestone plant, were additional factors.

Although it has a rugged, outdoor lifestyle, I doubt your average seed drill will see much high speed operation on the freeway.

I don't think nitrogen would have prevented the Ford Explorer business. And certainly, the seed drill doesn't get any high speed operation, but the insides of a tire do last fairly long. The environmental concerns a tire faces are mostly on the outside, particularly with the sun.

Of course, temperature issues are different, but nitrogen isn't going to magically prevent a tire from facing temperature issues.


The Ford Explorers flipping was a completely different problem. People bought full frame, leaf spring, solid rear axle SUVS and complained that they rode like a truck.

Ford's solution, instead of telling them they bought a truck based SUV was to dangerously deflate the tires.

If it's just one person commuting to work at highway speeds for 10 minutes, you'll probably never have an issue outside of never wearing the inside of the tire.

When you load your entire family up, load the cargo area to the gill and drive 85MPH down an interstate on a sunny day ... you start to have problems because you only have 26PSI in the tire.

Consumer ignorance (buying a truck based SUV and complaining about it) and Ford doing the wrong thing almost put Firestone out of business.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
The Ford Explorers flipping was a completely different problem. People bought full frame, leaf spring, solid rear axle SUVS and complained that they rode like a truck.

I was deliberately skirting the Ford Explorer issue, since, as you've pointed out, it was far more complex an issue than the media of the day would have us believe. I suspect that most people who have been around trucks all their lives would have looked at the 26 psi recommendation with a skeptical eye.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Miller88
The Ford Explorers flipping was a completely different problem. People bought full frame, leaf spring, solid rear axle SUVS and complained that they rode like a truck.

I was deliberately skirting the Ford Explorer issue, since, as you've pointed out, it was far more complex an issue than the media of the day would have us believe. I suspect that most people who have been around trucks all their lives would have looked at the 26 psi recommendation with a skeptical eye.


Gotcha!

It's also the reason we have TPMS forced down our throat.

 

[Garak]

Yep, that one, too, although my experiences with TMPS have been mixed, leaning towards good. In any event, my dad was one to never want run a tire too high in pressure for ride concerns. Nonetheless, his compromise was at best a 2 psi cold pressure drop in a city vehicle, like down to 30 or 32 psi in a full sized sedan. That being said, he would not have believed 26 psi in an Explorer for a second.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Besides, I like to be able to fill my own tires, and I'm not buying some obscenely expensive equipment. I also do some really weird hours, so finding compressed air at 3:00 a.m. is difficult enough, let alone pure nitrogen.


Yeh, theory meets practice, though I've seen calculations somewhere showing that you reduce the lifetime exposure to oxygen by about 50% even with air top-offs.

I mostly use a hand pump, and I doubt I'd make the effort to seek out free N for top-off even though I'm fairly convinced N offers a small advantage. It would be relatively easy to develop a DIY CO2 inflation capability (bit of yeast and sugar in, say an old fire extinguisher, though you'd ideally want to dry the gas, and avoid explosions) I doubt I'll bother doing that either. Havn't seen any research on CO2, though cyclists use it.

Tyre inflation/emergency repair kits use (or used) butane, which seems pretty irresponsible considering the tyre might be re-inflated with air. Perhaps they've had their [censored] sued in the US by now and they've stopped that, though I havn't heard of it.

When I started the sunflower treatment about 2 years ago now I gave my spare one treatment, and then, because its a newer and more expensive commercial multi-ply, and the treatment was speculative, stopped doing that, deflated it (I carry a pump) and wrapped it in a few plastic bags. It would be easy to keep it in an inert gas atmosphere (yeast and sugar again, in a slightly leaky container) but I didn't bother. I might just ditch it for local runs and rely on a pump/tyre stitch kit, since its quite a lot of weight, and the inside of the car gets very hot in summer since its parked in the open.

I don't bother covering my wheels when parked either. Would be easy, but I'm not organised/disciplined to do it consistently.

You see bits of cardboard propped in wheel arches here but that might be mostly to protect against dogs urinating on the wheels..

...as if that were a BAD thing?

http://digitaljournal.com/article/250634

"Self-healing rubber: Just add vegetable oil and urea"

Maybe I should wait for this final solution to come to market, or is that just [censored] in the wind?

Perhaps I should re-examine my long-standing contempt for wheel trims, too. This is all very disturbing.

Of course they don't cover much of the tyre, (perhaps I can "invent" bigger ones) but I think they overlapp the tyre-wheel interface where much of the cracking occurs.

[censored]! I think I threw mine away.

Whitewall tyres? I'd always thought of them as just a style thing, but they'd reflect more sunlight.... I think I've seen pictures (at least) of fake white walls that are essentially thin flexible extended wheel trims (in white, er...obviously) that cover the walls of your tyres. Sounds like a fix.

Lanolin? Might not penetrate the tyre like vegetable oil may, but I don't have enough tyres to test that as well.

Its tough being a part-time punk technologist. Under-resourced and poorly paid.And so little time.

 

[Ducked]

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?62854-Wide-white-tire-inserts

Apparently the fake whitewalls aren't much good, but there is white tyre paint...

 

[Shannow]

I see lots of whitewalls on SUVs down here...apparently a lot of us are running whitewalls and just don't know it.

 

[Ducked]

Yeh, seen that.

But I'm trying to extend tyre life. Attack with an angle grinder is a bit....er......counter-intuitive.

Or nuts.

 

[CapriRacer]

Just a couple of thoughts on the Ford/Firestone thing:

First, I go into detail here:

http://www.barrystiretech.com/fordfirestone.html

Second - a summary:

It wasn't the pressure specification that caused the tire issues. You can argue all you want about that, but I will point out that the pressure Ford specified was not out of line (load carrying capacity-wise) for any of the other SUV's at the time - except to say, they were using a larger tire than most and it just appeared to have a low specification.

Second, the tires themselves had a identifiable problem. Firestone was not alone with this as many tire manufacturers scrambled to change their tires immediately after the incidences started hitting the news. Firestone just sold soooo many tires to this very popular vehicle, and the vehicle had some tip-over tendencies (so did other SUV's), and the combination is what made this so visible.

And lastly, TPMS was the result of a study NHTSA did as a followup on the complaints - and if I remember correctly, the study showed that 25% of the cars had at least one underinflated tire - and for SUV's and pickups, it was close to 1/3!! The logic was the TPMS's weren't rocket science and inflation seemed such a HUGE problem that could easily be fixed with the simple technology - and the vehicle manufacturers would have to be forced to add it, because they certainly didn't offer it even as an option, while spending a great deal of engineering effort into cup holders. (Or, at least, that was the perception at the time.)

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

The Explorer exhibited no more tendency to tip than other SUVs:

NHTSA Denies Firestone Request For Ford Explorer Investigation

Ford did disregard Ford engineers' recommended changes to the vehicle design after it rolled over in company tests prior to introduction. Instead, Ford, over Firestone's objections, lowered the recommended pressure to 26 psi. That reduced the margin of safety from underinflation to zero.

Goodyear and Ford Differences

Of the half-million Explorers equipped with Goodyear Wrangler tires of the same size, specification, and recommended tire pressure (26 psi) as the Firestones, none exhibited tread-separation problems.

Firestone tires produced at the plant in Decatur, Illinois in the years 1994 through '96 exhibited a failure rate 13 times higher than ATX tires manufactured elsewhere.

Car and Driver simulates a blowout

One of the consumer automobile magazines simulated a variety of scenarios, including a blowout, with an Explorer and were unable to replicate the alleged problem.

Those of us who recall the alleged Audi "sudden acceleration" issue with 1982-1987 Audi 5000s or the recent incidents involving Lexus and Toyota sudden unintended acceleration recognize the issues: poor vehicle maintenance, unskilled drivers, and hysterical reactions which led to unnecessary deaths.