newer tire in the back arguement

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Originally Posted By: CapriRacer


I do wonder how the use of winter tires has impacted things. It wasn't that long ago that the use of winter tires wasn't really that common. Things have changed over time.

For me, swapping summer/winter tires is the only time I rotate as we only do a maximum of 10k on either. Just put the 2 with most tread on the front each time.
I imagine for those who run the same tires year round, the use of quick lube places has removed any easy opportunity to rotate tires as they all use a pit. Those going to a real mechanic for oil changes probably do get their tires rotated more often as the car is usually on the lift regularly.
 
Costco won't put new tires on front for one reason...liability.

In North America, it works like this... if you understeer off the road and crash, it is the drivers fault, you were going too fast for conditions...

If you spin, it is the cars fault... ALWAYS! a car that spins is defective, and DANGEROUS! per the lawyers of the world. That is why every car has negative camber in the rear, and usually zero camber up front. Cars are designed to understeer, always...

Yes, there are a few exceptions, but most mainstream cars understeer badly, on purpose.

As to the 2 snows on the front of a FWD car, been there done that, ONCE ONLY!
The car was UNDRIVEABLE on any slippery road above about 25 mph... reasonably fun at low speeds, but whiteknuckle the rest of the time.

With worn tires on the rear, yes, it is possible that in certain scenarios you could lose the rear end, and spin. Think heavy rain, highway speeds, sudden lane change in slippery conditions etc. However, on a minivan driven semi sensibly, without completely bald rear tires, MOST people would never have an issue... Costco just wont be responsible if YOU do... so they won't mount new pairs on the front...
 
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Originally Posted By: 08sienna
so I have about 1/2 worn 2 Michellin Radial X and 2 new Defenders. I thought mounting 2 new in the front would be nice because they will wear even at the end if I don't rotate them. But Costco insisted that I must install new ones in the back. I know about the better traction arguement for the rear tires but how much of difference in thread depth will make meaningful traction panalty if newer tires are mounted in the front?
It is a Sienna van. BTW, Radial X and Defenders' road noise is horrible, in the same degree. I don't remember any tire I used before made this much of road noise.


crazy2.gif


Go here, last post..

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3148956
 
I've under steered twice, once into a curb while trying to drift a 4 cylinder fiero, and once on a gravel road in a diesel rabbit cruising along too fast, both my fault.

I've over steered twice, once in the Fiero (Hauling butt though S curve), and once in the Maxima (ice).

Under steer is easily avoidable, slow down and know your car. Over steer is less avoidable, conditions and maintenance levels can drastically change handling characteristics, making your car, (or the road)unpredictable.

I will never request new tires on the front, but I also rotate regularly so its never an issue.
 
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Originally Posted By: michaelluscher
****THE MAJORITY**** of people are stupid, inept, and ignorant.
Agreed.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
We live in a very litigious society.
Also true. It's a Catch-22...people are stupid and get into trouble. Since they can't admit they're stupid, they decide that everything bad that happens to them is someone else's fault. So they sue. Round-and-round she goes...

I practised putting my car into controlled skids when I was in high-school...in a huge deserted parking lot in the winter. I know very well what happens when you brake incorrectly or don't steer properly into a skid, but I've had 40 years of practice...Most people today don't know jack...
 
I'd put new up front til their scrubbed in even with the rear then start a rotation sequence, meantime, don't push the minivan limit out to where the tires are breaking loose.
 
it really depends on how worn the 2 old tires are.

if they are 4/32 just buy 4

if they are 6/32 and its not fall/winter probably not an issue\
you will end up buying 2 before next winter if you are smart.

if they are 8/32 and above I'd prefer the new ones on front so they will become closer(in tread depth) to the used tires.


of course my opinions are biased by living somewhere there is a winter and snow.

If you live in arizona you probably have a different opinion.

of course many cars require nearly matched tires so this is a moot point for them. (ie anyone with AWD)
 
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Originally Posted By: 08sienna
Thank you for the informative replies. One question not covered yet is that how much difference of wear will start to make my car behave like the blue one?


Northeast easily 50% in rain or slippery conditions.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
it really depends on how worn the 2 old tires are.

if they are 4/32 just buy 4

if they are 6/32 and its not fall/winter probably not an issue\
you will end up buying 2 before next winter if you are smart.

if they are 8/32 and above I'd prefer the new ones on front so they will become closer(in tread depth) to the used tires.


of course my opinions are biased by living somewhere there is a winter and snow.

If you live in arizona you probably have a different opinion.

of course many cars require nearly matched tires so this is a moot point for them. (ie anyone with AWD)


Yup, here in Phoenix I don't worry about sliding around in the rain. It rains maybe 7-10 days of the year if we're lucky. Half of those rains are during the night because it's too hot for the rain to reach the ground. I prefer my best tires up front because the asphalt is literally over 180 degrees and if one decides to let loose I prefer it to be a rear tire. I've lost tread on the front and could barely steer. My grandpa had a blowout with almost new tires on his jeep on the front on the highway and almost flipped it.
 
*chuckles* The last time I brought up this argument I was blasted for it. Direct Tire wouldn't put the new tires on the rear so I did it at home... had a fairly bad winter here in KC and you know not a single spin out go figure!
 
I always though the newer tires should go on the front especially on a from wheel drive car. With a front wheel drive, there's of course the added weight from the transmission, and most of the breaking is done via the front tires. If there's ever a blow out I would think you would want maintain the ability to brake and control the vehicle... I recently had this discussion with the guy at the Tires plus, I just don't understand the logic behind the "better tires in the back"...

Anyone else agree?
 
Originally Posted By: Amirkhat
I always though the newer tires should go on the front especially on a from wheel drive car. With a front wheel drive, there's of course the added weight from the transmission, and most of the breaking is done via the front tires. If there's ever a blow out I would think you would want maintain the ability to brake and control the vehicle... I recently had this discussion with the guy at the Tires plus, I just don't understand the logic behind the "better tires in the back"...

Anyone else agree?


I see the logic to either POV---but it depends on specific circumstances. Unfortunately, the suits in the auto/tire world are like suits anywhere else these days: liability concerns trump nearly all else. For that reason, they decided that since oversteer spin-out from losing the rear is more likely to be serious than understeer to rear-end the car in front or a guiderail....that "new tires always go in back" will be the Standard.

That's certainly true in the case putting new high-quality tires on the front, with bald Chinese cheapos on the back. But for more real world-based scenarios, (often based on $$$ these days) such as replacing one pair of worn tires and leaving one pair of 6/32" tires of the same type---or even brand/model---it's a tougher call.

On one hand, today's FWD cars are designed to understeer, braking and steering count for something and evening out treadwear between front and back is a good thing. Not to mention that when I worked retail the customer was always right.

OTOH there are the famous videos of pro drivers losing the rear end when the worse tires are on the rear. Even if the scenario is "rigged," as some say here, that's strong evidence it's not 'all' liability paranoia.

If I ran the world, an informed vehicle owner/driver/consumer would get to choose where tires are best placed on his own vehicle, after research, discussion with a pro at a tire shop or garage, and knowledge of his own driving habits, vehicle, and driving conditions he encounters.

Like it used to be back in the day....
 
I prefer the better tires on the front too. Another point, it's second nature to try to pull off the road as soon as possible when you have a blowout. If it's the front tire that goes, the behavior of the car becomes extremely unpredictable.

Amir
 
There's a quirky element to this argument that has been brought up a couple of times - and I'd like to explorer it. Please do not misunderstand me. I'm curious about the general opinion, and not trying to make a point.

It has to do with "blowouts".

How often do you think they occur?

How often to the occur compared to losing control - either by understeering off the road or oversteering off the road (aka spinning out)?

Do you think that old tires are more prone to blowouts than new tires? Or is tread depth the deciding factor?
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
It has to do with "blowouts".

How often do you think they occur?

How often to the occur compared to losing control - either by understeering off the road or oversteering off the road (aka spinning out)?
I've been driving about 50 years, probably averaging 15,000 miles/year overall, and have never experienced a blowout on any vehicle.

I __ONE TIME__ was following an "18 wheeler" with a tire smoking. Memory is that I was less than 100 feet away (but it was a long time ago) when it blow out ... the noise, smoke, and rubber shrapnel would get anyone's attention; much louder than a 30-06 to me.

So ... to me, rarely.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer


Do you think that old tires are more prone to blowouts than new tires? Or is tread depth the deciding factor?
You're the expert, but my guess would be underpressure/overload (which are for my purposes the same thing on a properly equipped vehicle) is most often the cause, and old/new is of no significance. Running over an item in the road which cuts through the tire would have some age (tread thickness) issue, but minor; the rubber isn't what provides the strength, but a 3/8" cut might not get through rubber and belts.

If the item hit the sidewall with sufficient energy, the tire would blowout.
 
Originally Posted By: faramir9
Originally Posted By: Amirkhat
I always though the newer tires should go on the front especially on a from wheel drive car. With a front wheel drive, there's of course the added weight from the transmission, and most of the breaking is done via the front tires. If there's ever a blow out I would think you would want maintain the ability to brake and control the vehicle... I recently had this discussion with the guy at the Tires plus, I just don't understand the logic behind the "better tires in the back"...

Anyone else agree?


I see the logic to either POV---but it depends on specific circumstances. Unfortunately, the suits in the auto/tire world are like suits anywhere else these days: liability concerns trump nearly all else. For that reason, they decided that since oversteer spin-out from losing the rear is more likely to be serious than understeer to rear-end the car in front or a guiderail....that "new tires always go in back" will be the Standard.

That's certainly true in the case putting new high-quality tires on the front, with bald Chinese cheapos on the back. But for more real world-based scenarios, (often based on $$$ these days) such as replacing one pair of worn tires and leaving one pair of 6/32" tires of the same type---or even brand/model---it's a tougher call.

On one hand, today's FWD cars are designed to understeer, braking and steering count for something and evening out treadwear between front and back is a good thing. Not to mention that when I worked retail the customer was always right.

OTOH there are the famous videos of pro drivers losing the rear end when the worse tires are on the rear. Even if the scenario is "rigged," as some say here, that's strong evidence it's not 'all' liability paranoia.

If I ran the world, an informed vehicle owner/driver/consumer would get to choose where tires are best placed on his own vehicle, after research, discussion with a pro at a tire shop or garage, and knowledge of his own driving habits, vehicle, and driving conditions he encounters.

Like it used to be back in the day....


I work with someone who put new tires on the front and had the old tires in the back. Driving down the highway in the rain, he hit a wet patch and the back end came around and he spun out on the highway. Good thing there was hardly any traffic, but I can see why you would want to go new in the back.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
There's a quirky element to this argument that has been brought up a couple of times - and I'd like to explorer it. Please do not misunderstand me. I'm curious about the general opinion, and not trying to make a point.

It has to do with "blowouts".

How often do you think they occur?

How often to the occur compared to losing control - either by understeering off the road or oversteering off the road (aka spinning out)?

Do you think that old tires are more prone to blowouts than new tires? Or is tread depth the deciding factor?


Had one once. Quite a surprise...and quite loud!

Hit a piece of unseen debris in the road, tore the center of the tread out on the right rear tire of a Volvo 240 Wagon that was towing a 2,500 lb trailer at the time.

Car was completely controllable, despite the flapping rubber, violent shaking and the trailer on the back. Pulled over smoothly to the median (I was in the left lane on a state highway...that was easiest route), I even signaled and put on my hazards when stopped. Mounted the donut spare on the front, took the good front wheel to the back so it would handle the trailer weight/load and headed for the nearest tire shop.

My then two year old daughter slept through the whole thing in her car seat in the center of the back...

It's my opinion that the startle response and subsequent excessive steering/brake inputs cause the loss of control that follows a blowout/rapid deflation. I had a worst case scenario, and it was no big deal...with smooth, thoughtful handling of the car...
 
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