Received an email from Purolator

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Originally Posted By: earlyre
ok Purolator, so it's my fault for buying a filter a year before i use it? (even though the build date is a year before that. IE: it sat on a shelf somewhere for a year before i bought it.)
The filter below, date coded for early 2011, I bought it as part of an oil/filter combo deal in 2012, put on car July 2013,took off about 2 weeks back:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3348481/PL14477_Autopsy#Post3348481

pardon me for "stockpiling" supplies 2-3 oil changes in advance...


so crazy, I mean, how many dog years is that Dude?
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
I sent an email to Mr. Mack:

Mr. Mack, Can you go out and get 100 Purolator Classic oil filters from your parking lot and/or jiffylubes around town and then till the bobistheoilguy.com forum how many torn media filters you found?


Interesting, but I do not know how useful that sample would be as if you pulled from my parking lot, you would get a P1 filter with 1K miles (wifes), one with nearly 3K miles (Subaru)... and then a HOST of other not-at-the-end-of-their-life filters (lots of sub 3K or 5K filters) and it would skew the results. People at Jiffy-lube might not have clue about their OCI and their records would be suspect.




Agreed, only pull ones with over 3 months on them, then just let the chips fall where they may. Or just pull fleet-duty ones over 5,000 miles only.
 
Generic response id say. Like you all said..who looks at oil filters that close..all they should of said is that they are investigating the issue... they should listen more closely to those who take apart their filters and find rips..and work on redesigning their filter so its stronger. Maybe it just means more pleats or better glue.
 
You know that response was run through their legal department before it was sent. IMO, it's just typical "toe the company line' and cover our butts response. But I guess I do give them some credit for even giving a response.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Averages out the unknowns if they get 50 to 100 random samples. Thing is, none should be tearing unless they are in for over a year. ... They could go to a fleet they are supplying, like rental cars, police, taxis, city fleets, etc. too.


No, there would be a construct validity error.

Fleets are not necessarily operated like a general consumer vehicle. It might provide some information but will not necessary inform us about the issue at hand.

The unknowns in field-use are a lot greater and the sample would have to be HUGE to the point of being impractical. You would have to verify the life, OCI, use and a lot of other metrics. Just the life of the vehicle would be an issue as a 200K Subaru would be different than the 60K Honda.

You can sample out of the factory relatively easily but collecting field data for a "clean" sample is nearly impossible. It will be "dirty" data if you try and collect a random field sample. However, we do not need that information as randomness is less of an issue here.
 
Yep, they did not have to respond. We are the 1 percenters. They could just ignore this forum or any internet discussion they are likely to lose.
(Rolla07, I could be "Rolla86")
 
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Generic response id say. Like you all said..who looks at oil filters that close..all they should of said is that they are investigating the issue... they should listen more closely to those who take apart their filters and find rips..and work on redesigning their filter so its stronger. Maybe it just means more pleats or better glue.


Just curious... you think maybe the tears are happening after the filter is in use ?

They wouldn't be letting torn filters go out the factory door would they ?
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Also, I just want to point out here that the "stockedpiled batches" is a bit flimsy.

I bought an August 2013 made P1 filter in October of 2013 (and emailed Purolator in Feb 2014 after 3,700ish miles). Two months from factory to customer is exactly what you would expect for this item and then you have to add on the 2-6 months it would take a person between oil changes (sometimes longer). So, if bad batches were going out in mid-late 2013, you would see failures in early 2014. I am glad he only got one complaint in 2013... but that is because it would have been logistically more rare to begin with.


Is there any chance the filter was torn before leaving the factory ?
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Also, I just want to point out here that the "stockedpiled batches" is a bit flimsy.

I bought an August 2013 made P1 filter in October of 2013 (and emailed Purolator in Feb 2014 after 3,700ish miles). Two months from factory to customer is exactly what you would expect for this item and then you have to add on the 2-6 months it would take a person between oil changes (sometimes longer). So, if bad batches were going out in mid-late 2013, you would see failures in early 2014. I am glad he only got one complaint in 2013... but that is because it would have been logistically more rare to begin with.


Is there any chance the filter was torn before leaving the factory ?


Don't know. That would be worse. I would expect the filter media to be inspected before being sealed in the can.

I do have an unused P1 filter in the closet. Maybe in a few weeks when I cut open another (400 miles to go), I will cut open the unused item. It is that or take it back for a refund. Oh well.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Averages out the unknowns if they get 50 to 100 random samples. Thing is, none should be tearing unless they are in for over a year. ... They could go to a fleet they are supplying, like rental cars, police, taxis, city fleets, etc. too.


No, there would be a construct validity error.

Fleets are not necessarily operated like a general consumer vehicle. It might provide some information but will not necessary inform us about the issue at hand.

The unknowns in field-use are a lot greater and the sample would have to be HUGE to the point of being impractical. You would have to verify the life, OCI, use and a lot of other metrics. Just the life of the vehicle would be an issue as a 200K Subaru would be different than the 60K Honda.

You can sample out of the factory relatively easily but collecting field data for a "clean" sample is nearly impossible. It will be "dirty" data if you try and collect a random field sample. However, we do not need that information as randomness is less of an issue here.


Nope, totally wrong. Statistical laws of random sampling and uncertainty calculations will get you really close to the truth over all usages out there. You could put rules on it like only those over 3000 miles, but you don't even need to do that.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Don't know. That would be worse. I would expect the filter media to be inspected before being sealed in the can.

I do have an unused P1 filter in the closet. Maybe in a few weeks when I cut open another (400 miles to go), I will cut open the unused item. It is that or take it back for a refund. Oh well.


Don't waste your money on a P1. Cut open a new Classic.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Just curious... you think maybe the tears are happening after the filter is in use ?

They wouldn't be letting torn filters go out the factory door would they ?


I have never seen or heard of one Purolator filter that had tears in the media when it was brand new. But of course, not many people cut open brand new oil filters, so the sample group is even smaller there.
 
If by chance the filter is getting torn immediately before being sealed in the can - and if there's no one there to see that step of the operation - nobody would ever know. Somebody on here awhile back raised the question of the filter getting torn during the pleat crimp operation.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
If by chance the filter is getting torn immediately before being sealed in the can - and if there's no one there to see that step of the operation - nobody would ever know. Somebody on here awhile back raised the question of the filter getting torn during the pleat crimp operation.


It's possible, but if they were getting torn during manufacturing, you'd think at least one or two new ones with torn media would have been discovered by now on this board.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Nope, totally wrong. Statistical laws of random sampling and uncertainty calculations will get you really close to the truth over all usages out there. You could put rules on it like only those over 3000 miles, but you don't even need to do that.



Here is the issue, you are not truly taking random samples nor are we looking for a general characteristic without other compounding metrics. Going to a "fleet" is not random nor would it accurately inform as it will skew towards certain vehicles. What we are looking for is a failure under very specific conditions but with a broad vehicle application. We will be looking for certifiable filters between 2,500-5,000 miles operated under certain conditions and across filter models. So randomly sampling without knowing the exact history and condition of the vehicle (which at a quick-lube place would be horrific), then the sample falls apart. Did the person do two OCI on that filter? Is the ODO record accurate, etc. It makes "random sampling" very cost ineffective. It is like cold-calling a neighborhood about food-poising to get a "sample" rather than just following up with those admitted to the ER or doctors office with the same symptoms.

Random sampling allows for generalization of a population... but we are not really needing to generalize from a sample. We are in search of a documented product failure and can infer based on the many cases despite a small number (only a limited number of people go to the ER for food poisoning (and that is not random sampling) but we can track it and trace it) because the likelihood of a non-issue would not lead to the number of post and threads about the filter's failure.
 
I have never seen a "DO NOT USE AFTER DATE" on a Purolator. As of today I won't use one again because I didn't know they went bad like produce and I don't know how long they've been sitting on the parts stores shelf.
 
This is from the Purolator letter:
"Based on the information I have seen, the claims have been typically from stockpiled batches. We are always improving our products and process. I recommend buying new items as the need arise to take advantage of any undisclosed improvements."

I think what he's trying to say is the filters that were sent in to Purolator with tears where ones he considered older stock - referring to them as "stockpiled batches".

Although, I think FutureDoc said his was only about 6 months old or less when he installed it, so I wouldn't really consider that an old filter that has been sitting around "stockpiled" in somebodies garage. I'd think an oil filter would be good sitting around for a couple year before being used if it was keep in a dry environment (like inside the house, not in the garage).

Then he's saying that they are always improving their products, and if you buy new filters now, chances are they will be better due to their process improvements. Guess he's saying maybe they make them better now then before ... but again, he never said they found the real reason for the tearing issue.

Some things don't seem to add up.
 
Mr. Mack of Purolator was kind enough to respond to me already via email. Kind of a long response. I don't know if I should just copy it here for the forum members to attack him with.... hmmm... Anyway, I am trying to talk him into just getting 100 oil filters from random walks of life out there and see if they have torn media. After all, the torn ones reported on this forum were basically unconnected, random events that you can also get if you obtain a couple from fleets, walmarts, pepboys, jiffylube, whoever changes oil, stack them up and see how many are ripped. Simply as that, lets not overthink this.
 
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