Mills Fleet Farm firearms policy

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Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
No one should be chastised for not carrying, but nor should anyone who chooses to not exercise that right chastise those that do. We live in a free country that allows us to defend ourselves and our loved ones against the assaults of deranged or desperate people that chose to act outside the laws of a civilized society. We should celebrate the face we have a choice.
Exactly. You don't worry about what I do, and I won't worry about what you do.


Robenstein made a good point and comment here. The issue, hatt, is that in a highly populated society where you have an element of highly irresponsible people, one cannot as easily overlook the ramifications of all decisions.

Im sorry, but just look at how people maintain their cars, how their skills are manifested in how many accidents they get into, what damage they do, etc. I dislike the arguments of cars vs guns for a variety of reasons, but point here is that there is a range that exists. Fact is that 100k guns are stolen each year. Yeah, some of that is just crime, but some of that is irresponsibility.

Remember the video up here a few yearsback with the guy from FL who was on youtube talking about CCW and showing just horrible firearm handling skills, drawing technique, etc.? There is a ton of that all over the net. Horrible lack of skill and capability in a stress-free situation. You really want fifteen of these folks spewing bullets from every direction at you and your kids when caught in a crossfire?

And that doesnt even get to the issue of crazies who get their hands on this stuff. And yes, the reach and number of engaged targets IS higher when firearms are used than when a car or knife or club is. So while I despize the fanaticism from stuff like Adam Lanza's shooting spree, the reality is that these things DO happen, and DO harm a LOT of people. So a free-for-all for everyone carrying, because of issues of human irresponsibility, mental condition, and human nature in general, is NOT necessarily in anyone's best interest.

But for responsible, trained, stable and functional individuals, the ability to carry and own whatever they want should not be limited by any Federal, state, or municipal entity. Problem is that with 300M+ people, that isnt a feat that one can easily tackle.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Been working your own reports again have you, and now you want to bring it into the open forum.


I dont even know what youre talking about. When you can have a rational conversation, come back.

You quoted me up above and took issue with what I said. I defined it yet again. Can't be more clear. The fact that you quoted me means that you're having whatever beef in the open forum.
 
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You really want fifteen of these folks spewing bullets from every direction at you and your kids when caught in a crossfire?

So a free-for-all for everyone carrying, because of issues of human irresponsibility, mental condition, and human nature in general, is NOT necessarily in anyone's best interest.

Post some links showing the problem. Sounds like FUD(fear uncertainty doubt) to me. The issues with CCW folks are very very low. Like count on one hand low. You're much more likely to be accidentally shot by a police officer than a CCW.
 
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Some of the tightest gun control in the country: http://chicago.cbslocal.com

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CHICAGO (CBS) – Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said a bloody holiday weekend that saw at least eight people shot and killed and dozens others wounded “doesn’t wipe out” reductions in violent crime in the past two years.

Since Friday evening, at least eight people were shot and killed in Chicago, and at least 44 others were wounded, police said
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Some of the tightest gun control in the country: http://chicago.cbslocal.com

Quote:
CHICAGO (CBS) – Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said a bloody holiday weekend that saw at least eight people shot and killed and dozens others wounded “doesn’t wipe out” reductions in violent crime in the past two years.

Since Friday evening, at least eight people were shot and killed in Chicago, and at least 44 others were wounded, police said


Point is? You must have missed everything I wrote before. Rates are MUCH higher in the inner city, with young people of color, etc. This stuff has been analyzed time and time again. Pull the inner cities out of the mix, just like pull suicides out of gun death numbers and you have a much different picture of crime and crime rates.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Point is? You must have missed everything I wrote before. Rates are MUCH higher in the inner city, with young people of color, etc. This stuff has been analyzed time and time again. Pull the inner cities out of the mix, just like pull suicides out of gun death numbers and you have a much different picture of crime and crime rates.
Go ahead and pull them out. You can run the numbers any which way you want. CCW folks are pretty safe. Gun laws do not lead to lower crime rates. Your entire foundation is flawed and sensationally driven.
 
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Originally Posted By: hatt
Quote:
You really want fifteen of these folks spewing bullets from every direction at you and your kids when caught in a crossfire?

So a free-for-all for everyone carrying, because of issues of human irresponsibility, mental condition, and human nature in general, is NOT necessarily in anyone's best interest.

Post some links showing the problem. Sounds like FUD(fear uncertainty doubt) to me. The issues with CCW folks are very very low. Like count on one hand low. You're much more likely to be accidentally shot by a police officer than a CCW.


I think that to believe that CCW holders are somehow magically of higher moral fiber or more stable or less prone to violence or normal, human instabilities is just not the case. So my comment goes back to the fact that if CCW were to proliferate all over the place, you'll have more people with more guns, yet not necessarily more training, more care for their firearms, more knowledge over how to properly use it, etc. So then you go to the shopping mall or movie theatre scenario and someone opens fire or someone does something else dire and how many will try to engage the person? From how many directions? How many will miss with a sidearm? Where will those bullets go? Perhaps it is overblown and I sure hope Im wrong, but it doesn't make the discussion less valid or worth having. The only dangerous scenario is to not think things through completely.

Its not like the cross section of the population is responsible, stable, and free of criminal tendencies, CCW holders included.

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According to the Texas Department of Public Safety, Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for a total of 5,314 crimes from January 1, 1996, to August 31, 2001. Crimes for which license holders were arrested include: murder/attempted murder (including attempted murder of police officer), kidnapping, rape/sexual assault, assault, weapon-related offenses, drug-related offenses, burglary, and theft.


That's 5300 out of 218000 individuals in that study. i.e. you have an element in the CCW world who does indeed end up performing criminal acts, some of them violent. This is in no way saying that ccw holders are criminals, rather, that there is a fraction of every population that WILL do harm to others, and CCW holders are no exception.

Proof:

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Circumstances: On August 5, 2008, James Wonder allegedly shot and killed U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agent Donald Pettit after a road rage incident. After the two got into a shouting and finger-pointing match while driving, Wonder pulled into a post office parking lot, Pettit followed and was shot and killed. After the shooting, Wonder sped away to a kidney dialysis appointment where he told a nurse that whomever had killed the agent must have been a “professional.” He then went home, hid the gun, changed his hair color, and rented a car to reportedly hide his involvement in the shooting. Wonder, who had a concealed handgun permit, has been indicted on manslaughter charges.

Source: “Police: Suspect in agent’s killing told nurses of road rage argument: Police: Suspect in federal agent’s killing described a road rage fight,” South Florida Sun-Sentinel, August 21, 2008; “Man charged in agent’s road rage killing out on bail; A Broward retiree who was charged in the death of a customs agent paid bail and was released from jail on Friday,” Miami Herald, August 30, 2008.


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Circumstances: On May 19, 2007, Jason Kenneth Hamilton, a member of the white supremacist group Aryan Nation, shot and killed his wife, a police officer, and a church sexton, and wounded three others before turning the gun on himself in a shooting spree in Moscow, Idaho. Hamilton had a concealed handgun permit “despite a [previous] domestic violence conviction that should have barred him from owning guns.” He also possessed a federally registered fully-automatic AK-47 machine gun, one of the guns he used in the shooting spree.

Source: “Shooter Linked to Aryans; Killer also had federal license for automatic weapons,” Spokesman Review, May 23, 2007; “Authorities investigate Hamilton’s gun purchase; Mass killer apparently obtained the automatic weapon late in 2004 or early in 2005; Ambush aftermath,” Lewiston Morning Tribune, May 24, 2007.


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Circumstances: On July 13, 2008, Ashford Thompson shot a police officer four times in the head after he was pulled over for playing loud music. Thompson used a Kel-Tec P11 “pocket pistol” in the shooting. Thompson, who had a concealed handgun permit issued by Cuyahoga County and had received a certificate for completing a concealed-carry class, pled guilty to aggravated murder.

Source: “Man indicted in killing of Twinsburg officer,” Plain Dealer, July 22, 2008; “Ashford Thompon’s sentencing hearing set for Oct. 15 in police officer’s murder,” Plain Dealer, June 25, 2009; “Thompson Pleads Guilty In Miktarian Death,” AkronNewsNow.com, April 13, 2009.


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Circumstances: On March 10, 2009, Michael McLendon, a self-proclaimed survivalist, killed his mother at their family home, beginning a shooting rampage that stretched across 24 miles. By the time McLendon took his own life in the midst of a police shootout at a factory where he had previously worked, he had shot four more relatives, including his 74- year-old grandmother, and five strangers, including the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a local sheriff’s deputy. McLendon had a concealed carry permit for two handguns. Police later found at the home he shared with his mother numerous how-to DVDs on committing acts of violence.

Source: “Officials: Alabama shooter depressed over failures,” Associated Press at philstar.com, March 13, 2009.


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Circumstances: On October 24, 2008, Andrew Sherman Conley was showing his girlfriend, assistant public defender Theresa Anderson, a .22 handgun when the weapon went off, the bullet striking her in the chest. She was treated by paramedics but died at the scene. Conley, who considered himself an “amateur gunsmith,” had attended a firearms safety course in 2005 and had a concealed handgun permit. Conley told deputies his girlfriend had encouraged him to take the safety course after a previous incident in which he had accidentally fired into the bed in the master bedroom. Conley was charged with negligent manslaughter.

Source: “Seminole Deputies: It was her boyfriend’s fault,” The Orlando Sentinel, November 4, 2008; “Trial in manslaughter case set for Feb. 23,” The Orlando Sentinel, December 5, 2008.


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Circumstances: On February 14, 2009, Frank Garcia allegedly opened fire with a .40 Glock pistol in the Lakeside Memorial Hospital parking lot in Brockport, NY. He had recently been fired by the hospital. He shot three people there, killing two, before killing a married couple at their home in Canandaigua. Garcia had been denied a p       a pistol three times in the previous 15 years due to previous arrests for assault, harassment, and criminal possession of a weapon, before a judge granted him the ability to carry a concealed weapon in 2007. Garcia faces four charges of murder, and one charge of attempted murder with his trial scheduled to begin in August 2009.

Source: “After 3rd try, gun permit OK’d,” Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, February 19, 2009; “Damelio will represent Garcia in Monroe Trial,” Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, July 1, 2009.


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Circumstances: At approximately midnight on July 15, 2008, John K. Gallaher III called 911 to report that he had shot and killed his friends Lori Fioravanti and Sean Gallagher. Although the motive for the shooting was unknown, friends speculated that heavy drinking and a dispute over a boating mishap may have led to the shootings. Gallaher, who had a concealed handgun permit, was charged with murder.

Source: “How Does a Family Beset by Tragedy Face Yet Another?,” Winston-Salem Journal, August 3, 2008; “Reason for shooting deaths still unclear,” Winston-Salem Journal, July 17, 2008.


Quote:
Circumstances: On July 4, 2007, firefighter Terrance Hough Jr. used a 40 caliber pistol to shoot and kill neighbor Jacob Feichtner as well as Bruce Anderson and Katherine Rosby as a result of a dispute over fireworks the three were setting off. Hough also shot and injured Donny Walsh and Katherine Nicholas. Police seized 12 firearms
t. Hough’s fellow firefighters described him as a “ticking time bomb that finally exploded,” and one noted, “I hope I’m off the day Hough snaps.” Hough, who had received his concealed handgun permit in 2004, was convicted of three counts of aggravated murder and two counts of attempted murder and was sentenced to life in prison with no parole.

Source: “Judge denies bail for man charged in July Fourth slayings,” Associated Press, July 9, 2007; “Hough Guilty, Could Get Death Penalty,” Cleveland Plain Dealer, May 16, 2008; “Firefighter gets life sentence in killings over fireworks,” Associated Press, May 22, 2008; “Hough known for bursts of anger,” Cleveland Plain Dealer, July 7, 2007; “Firefighter in fatal shootings may face death penalty,” Cleveland Plain Dealer, August 8, 2007.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Point is? You must have missed everything I wrote before. Rates are MUCH higher in the inner city, with young people of color, etc. This stuff has been analyzed time and time again. Pull the inner cities out of the mix, just like pull suicides out of gun death numbers and you have a much different picture of crime and crime rates.
Go ahead and pull them out. You can run the numbers any which way you want. CCW folks are pretty safe. Gun laws do not lead to lower crime rates. Your entire foundation is flawed and sensationally driven.


Where did I say that gun laws lead to lower crime rates?

I recommend you going back to my initial premise which is that in safe and low crime communities, the risk of violent crime is so low as to not justify ccw on a personal basis, though it IS a personal decision. There hasn't been a murder in my town for as far back as I can see in the police records. There are five to eight "violent" (though not deadly) events per year per the police records I can access. Low crime, low chances. Fast police response. That's the reality of my situation, which I am glad to live in. It doesn't make me a victim or having head in the sand.

To say for the umpteenth time, I support the ability for true law abiding, stable and functional citizens to own what they want, carry if they desire, and not be infringed by state or local governments. I put my money where my mouth is on that. It doesn't mean that I have to carry, nor that Im intrinsically a victim if I don't. I have a real concern about the masses carrying and being armed when they get into situations, because while some (like many on here, myself included) take safety, training, etc. very seriously, the reality is that the general population may not, and that IS a risk to discuss as a responsible population. Why every last person has to make the conversation equated to some sort of threat on them, especially when the conversation comes from someone like myself who inherently supports 2A, supports more open rights, and who owns multiple guns, is just mind boggling.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Been working your own reports again have you, and now you want to bring it into the open forum.


I dont even know what youre talking about. When you can have a rational conversation, come back.

You quoted me up above and took issue with what I said. I defined it yet again. Can't be more clear. The fact that you quoted me means that you're having whatever beef in the open forum.


The only place I said anything about picking a fight was when I reported your first post in this thread, then you accused me (with emphasis CAP) of trying to pick a fight with you. Since you know perfectly well that I never said any thing in this tread about picking a fight, I find you claim that you don't know what I' m talking about dishonest.

You are the one who brought the inflammatory language into it...
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
So then you go to the shopping mall or movie theatre scenario and someone opens fire or someone does something else dire and how many will try to engage the person? From how many directions? How many will miss with a sidearm? Where will those bullets go? Perhaps it is overblown and I sure hope Im wrong, but it doesn't make the discussion less valid or worth having.


I live in Florida, the Gunshine state. The state with the most firearms and the most carry permits. There are over 1 million carry permits issued to a population of 20 million people. That's one in 20 people with a carry permit. Not including small children and teenagers, that's approximately 1 in 16 adults with a carry permit!! Your scenario has never played out, not once. And not even in Florida where 1 out of every 16 or so people you see out in public is potentially carrying a concealed weapon.

People don't just see a threat and indiscriminately begin "spewing" bullets all willy nilly in their direction. Doesn't happen.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I've not felt the need to fear to the point of being to be constantly armed. And yes, it's fear. Preparedness is a response to a fear or concern over something happening, to the point that you believe the probability is such that the preparedness is justified



I think you've got that wrong- or at least misconstrued.

Being prepared for the worst isn't necessarily fear/concern. Simply being ready. It's no different than taking out a life insurance policy. You don't plan on dieing unexpectedly, but it does happen. If it does, you want your family to be taken care of, or at least have the costs associated with death covered. You don't work under your car with only a jack holding it up do you? No, you support it with stands because the jack can fail suddenly. I know a guy who almost never uses stands- and he's a mechanic. Been one for 40+ years. Just because he's still alive and kicking, doesn't mean that a jack won't fail on him. How many people work under an improperly supported vehicle every year? Tons. How many die? Comparatively few. How many people are in the US? Tons. How many are victims of violent crime? Comparatively few. Carrying a firearm- concealed or open is just a simple and easy step you can take to protect you and your family if an unforeseen problem arises.

As I see it, the possibility does justify it. Remember, crime is random. Robenstein got beaten and mugged in small town Iowa. Several people were killed in a movie theater in Colorado. You simply don't know when or where violent crime is going to occur. It happens in big cities, suburbia, small town USA and rural America. It's the randomness of crime- the fact that it's impossible to predict and the fact that there cannot be a cop on every corner that makes me want to carry. Done properly, it has no effect on others. Even if it wasn't done properly (I've seen a few), I'd still rather have that, then not having the option at all. Of course a certain level of knowledge needs to be present before a person should carry, but once achieved (and maintained), it's not any different than locking your door. Just a step you take to ensure your safety.
 
This thread is going down hill. Lock time. We all have our opinions concerning guns. I am in favor of people having guns. I grew up in a house where there were guns. My parents showed us how dangerous a gun is if not handled properly. My mother always had a small gun in her purse.

Helen
 
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