4.6 SOHC Ford Motorsport SVO Mobil1 5w-30 500 mile

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


I have seen nothing that indicates any of the factory clearances are reduced in the DOHC engine. Please explain, I am truly interested in this statement...


Aluminum blocks generally have tighter cold main bearing clearances. The general spec is .00098-.0019, though many aftermarket "race" style main bearings for the AL block bump this into the low .002x range with no I'll effects.

 

[Ben99GT]

Also, with ARP heads studs a retorque is generally beneficial after a few heat cycles. They can be torqued cold to generally eliminate that step, (torque them, let sit overnight, retorque, repeat a couple more times), many simply follow the ARP instructions and retorque after several heat cycles.

I've seen more head gasket issues caused by improperly torqued ARP head studs than from OEM TTY bolts torqued according to factory procedure, FWIW.

 

[JDW]

Thanks guys for this info, Because of my oil report and your knowledge will keep a sharp eye on these issues.New report in a few months after some miles, will keep you posted .

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


I have seen nothing that indicates any of the factory clearances are reduced in the DOHC engine. Please explain, I am truly interested in this statement...


Aluminum blocks generally have tighter cold main bearing clearances. The general spec is .00098-.0019, though many aftermarket "race" style main bearings for the AL block bump this into the low .002x range with no I'll effects.


That was more what I would expect, typically my BIL opens things up a bit in an all out hp set up. But I have no familiarity with aluminum at all...

 

[steve20]

"""BTW The hauling corn juice is behind me in my years."""


Yessiree, that is what the SC 96 Bird was for

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I'm just amazed you used a teksid block to build a SOHC engine.



Why. The teskid was awesome and capable of 800-1000hp.


Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


You don't have any idea what you're talking about. My 2v 4.6 and the 4v 4.6 that I got from an 04 Mach 1 have almost identical bearing clearances and the only reason they are different is because of thermal expansion being different from aluminum to iron.
And these engines weren't built for 30 grade oils. They were built for a lubricant. Oil temps will dictate the oil grade required and if an oil cooler is equipped then the engine will tolerate a thinner grade during periods of high stress and the oil temps start to increase.
I've run 20 grades and 40 grades in my mod motors. My last 2v had 240k on it,had at least 1500 pounds of nitrous through it and I used a 20 grade in it unless I was racing and then I thickened it to a 40 grade b
When I pulled the heads off that engine the cylinder walls were smooth and no wear ridge whatsoever at the top of the stroke.
So having built and raced these mod motors for quite some time now I can honestly say I don't have a clue what your talking about.
And the 2v 4.6 that I removed was because of a spit plug so I put in a 4v instead then dissected the 2v just to see for myself how well 20 grades work even with the abuse I pounded it with.

 

[Jim Allen]

I agree generally that 20 grade is fine for Modulars, even if driven in spirited fashion, but this one has a supercharge and that changes the equation a bit. Fuel dilution and higher-than-NA oil might dictate a heavier oil. If it were my car, I'f find a way to monitor oil temps and between that and tracking fuel dilution, I'd base my viscosity on that. This is probably a case for the "... thick as necessary." part of the viscosity credo:

"As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I agree generally that 20 grade is fine for Modulars, even if driven in spirited fashion, but this one has a supercharge and that changes the equation a bit. Fuel dilution and higher-than-NA oil might dictate a heavier oil. If it were my car, I'f find a way to monitor oil temps and between that and tracking fuel dilution, I'd base my viscosity on that. This is probably a case for the "... thick as necessary." part of the viscosity credo:

"As thin as possible, as thick as necessary."
+1. well summed up by Jim!

 

[Mach1Owner]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I'm just amazed you used a teksid block to build a SOHC engine.



Why. The teskid was awesome and capable of 800-1000hp.


Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


You don't have any idea what you're talking about. My 2v 4.6 and the 4v 4.6 that I got from an 04 Mach 1 have almost identical bearing clearances and the only reason they are different is because of thermal expansion being different from aluminum to iron.
And these engines weren't built for 30 grade oils. They were built for a lubricant. Oil temps will dictate the oil grade required and if an oil cooler is equipped then the engine will tolerate a thinner grade during periods of high stress and the oil temps start to increase.
I've run 20 grades and 40 grades in my mod motors. My last 2v had 240k on it,had at least 1500 pounds of nitrous through it and I used a 20 grade in it unless I was racing and then I thickened it to a 40 grade b
When I pulled the heads off that engine the cylinder walls were smooth and no wear ridge whatsoever at the top of the stroke.
So having built and raced these mod motors for quite some time now I can honestly say I don't have a clue what your talking about.
And the 2v 4.6 that I removed was because of a spit plug so I put in a 4v instead then dissected the 2v just to see for myself how well 20 grades work even with the abuse I pounded it with.


1. Usually if you are building a high HP motor you use 4v heads, not 2v.
2. Read Ben's post above. Aluminum expands and contracts differently than Iron. Look around on the mustang forums, a lot of v4 guys use 40 even when just doing summer driving, more so when using forced induction and causing more heat. Or just ask a few FR/SVO/SVT Engineers what they use on track days.
3. When i say "built for" I mean they were designed with using a 5w-30 in mind, I have also seen Ford Engineers state that they would never run 20 in their engines.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner

3. When i say "built for" I mean they were designed with using a 5w-30 in mind, I have also seen Ford Engineers state that they would never run 20 in their engines.


Not really an accurate statement. Yes they were "designed for" 5W30 because 5W20 was uncommon at the time (this was the early-mid '90s).

As to "engineers," I think you are talking about one well-known ex-pat Ford guy in particular and one written tirade from a decade or so ago and it was mostly in the context of HP engines. If you talk to the more recent Ford engineers, as I have, they are lots more sanguine. I chatted at length with Jeff Kolodziejczyk in '08, who was then the head of the Modular engine team, an he dismissed most of the hoopla over 5W20. It's proven itself in everyday use, but there are always exceptions and many HP applications certainly may need more.. especially supercharged IMO.

 

[Mach1Owner]

I'm not talking about here. I"m also talking about the engineers that visit the mach1 website and SVTperformance

 

[JDW]

Jim
Nice to see someone that has met Jeff Kolodziejczyk he is the Eng that invented the JMOD for the FORD 4R70W

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I'm just amazed you used a teksid block to build a SOHC engine.



Why. The teskid was awesome and capable of 800-1000hp.


Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


You don't have any idea what you're talking about. My 2v 4.6 and the 4v 4.6 that I got from an 04 Mach 1 have almost identical bearing clearances and the only reason they are different is because of thermal expansion being different from aluminum to iron.
And these engines weren't built for 30 grade oils. They were built for a lubricant. Oil temps will dictate the oil grade required and if an oil cooler is equipped then the engine will tolerate a thinner grade during periods of high stress and the oil temps start to increase.
I've run 20 grades and 40 grades in my mod motors. My last 2v had 240k on it,had at least 1500 pounds of nitrous through it and I used a 20 grade in it unless I was racing and then I thickened it to a 40 grade b
When I pulled the heads off that engine the cylinder walls were smooth and no wear ridge whatsoever at the top of the stroke.
So having built and raced these mod motors for quite some time now I can honestly say I don't have a clue what your talking about.
And the 2v 4.6 that I removed was because of a spit plug so I put in a 4v instead then dissected the 2v just to see for myself how well 20 grades work even with the abuse I pounded it with.


1. Usually if you are building a high HP motor you use 4v heads, not 2v.
2. Read Ben's post above. Aluminum expands and contracts differently than Iron. Look around on the mustang forums, a lot of v4 guys use 40 even when just doing summer driving, more so when using forced induction and causing more heat. Or just ask a few FR/SVO/SVT Engineers what they use on track days.
3. When i say "built for" I mean they were designed with using a 5w-30 in mind, I have also seen Ford Engineers state that they would never run 20 in their engines.


I've got a 4v in my 2000 gt. Engine and tranny came out of a 2004 Mach 1.
Considering that the 03 and 04 Mach 1's were unique when compared to the previous model year cobra's(not terminator)
The 03-04 mach's had 10-1 compression ratio,the 4v cobra's had 9.7 iirc
The intake cams were different. The cobra had slightly more duration which gave it a bit more up top for rpm. The Mach had better low end grunt.
The aluminum blocks.
So considering ford kinda build the Mach differently why would they specify a 20 grade for them considering the bearing clearances were identical in the cobra 4v and Mach 4v. If those clearances are "built" for 30 and 40 grade oils why were they not specified by the oem?
Simple. Because oil temps weren't too much for a 20 grade to handle and since they are a rev happy engine using a 20 grade reduced drag at higher rpm.
You're wrong about the mod motors being built for any particular grade of oil. They are built requiring a lubricant. A 20 grade is fine in all but the most demanding applications. My 4v has an oil cooler so my oil temps rarely break 210F even when I'm enjoying the long power and a 4v provides and only once did I see 240F and that was driving with sustained 4000-7000rpm.
I was once a thicker is better guy and I looked at all the conspiracy theories and then bitog taught me some sense.
I've learned to match the grade of oil to the expected duty the engine will perform at.
For example if I was going to be towing my trailer across the prairies camping in the summer I'd go a grade thicker because of the extra workload expected.
If I'm just driving normally though I use what's specified unless there is a reason not to.
The mod motors have proven to be just as durable as the Windsor line it replaced and there are countless examples as taxi cabs that were beat on during police duty,then beat on as a cab and yet they'll go 500k without much trouble as long as the plugs don't get coughed out.
So I gotta disagree about the 20 grades. Spend enough time here and you'll become illuminated with the rest of us

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: JDW
Jim
Nice to see someone that has met Jeff Kolodziejczyk he is the Eng that invented the JMOD for the FORD 4R70W

No he isn't, you're thinking of Jerry Wroblewski.

 

[Mach1Owner]

Actually its not "differently" it's just a 2001 bottom end, 03 Cobra heads/cams, and an improved intake manifold.

Aside from the Intake manifold its just a parts bin car. Very few things on it are not from a previous years Cobra or GT

30 was specified for the 4v, look at every engine in the previous 32v engines, they ask for 30. They just changed to 20 for CAFE. Ford did the same for the i4 Zetecs. they were 5w-30 until 2001 when they changed the oil suggestion but nothing about the motor. If you are running your 4v harder than just daily driving it its commonly recommended to run 40.

The reason they can say 20 is ok is because they still meet the requirements the have to for wear federal requirements, and warranty. Those standards don't factor in taking it to the track often, or doing street races.

 

[JDW]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I'm just amazed you used a teksid block to build a SOHC engine.



Why. The teskid was awesome and capable of 800-1000hp.


Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
The engine was designed for 30 for daily use but even many ford engineers recommend using 40 is track cars. Even in the DOHC 4.6 which has tighter clearances.


You don't have any idea what you're talking about. My 2v 4.6 and the 4v 4.6 that I got from an 04 Mach 1 have almost identical bearing clearances and the only reason they are different is because of thermal expansion being different from aluminum to iron.
And these engines weren't built for 30 grade oils. They were built for a lubricant. Oil temps will dictate the oil grade required and if an oil cooler is equipped then the engine will tolerate a thinner grade during periods of high stress and the oil temps start to increase.
I've run 20 grades and 40 grades in my mod motors. My last 2v had 240k on it,had at least 1500 pounds of nitrous through it and I used a 20 grade in it unless I was racing and then I thickened it to a 40 grade b
When I pulled the heads off that engine the cylinder walls were smooth and no wear ridge whatsoever at the top of the stroke.
So having built and raced these mod motors for quite some time now I can honestly say I don't have a clue what your talking about.
And the 2v 4.6 that I removed was because of a spit plug so I put in a 4v instead then dissected the 2v just to see for myself how well 20 grades work even with the abuse I pounded it with.


Plus 80 lbs lighter on the front end

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Also, with ARP heads studs a retorque is generally beneficial after a few heat cycles. They can be torqued cold to generally eliminate that step, (torque them, let sit overnight, retorque, repeat a couple more times), many simply follow the ARP instructions and retorque after several heat cycles.

I've seen more head gasket issues caused by improperly torqued ARP head studs than from OEM TTY bolts torqued according to factory procedure, FWIW.


This I think is the operative post in the whole discussion. The high amounts of sodium and silicon, plus the small amount of coolant could be indication of the heads lifting. Never mind the fact that ARP studs were used, how much torque was used when the nuts were tightened? Or was a torque + turn angle method used? What kind of lubricant was used on the nuts? Retorquing the heads I thing would be a very good thing to do. And continue to monitor the situation by doing UOA's.

 

[JDW]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Also, with ARP heads studs a retorque is generally beneficial after a few heat cycles. They can be torqued cold to generally eliminate that step, (torque them, let sit overnight, retorque, repeat a couple more times), many simply follow the ARP instructions and retorque after several heat cycles.

I've seen more head gasket issues caused by improperly torqued ARP head studs than from OEM TTY bolts torqued according to factory procedure, FWIW.


This I think is the operative post in the whole discussion. The high amounts of sodium and silicon, plus the small amount of coolant could be indication of the heads lifting. Never mind the fact that ARP studs were used, how much torque was used when the nuts were tightened? Or was a torque + turn angle method used? What kind of lubricant was used on the nuts? Retorquing the heads I thing would be a very good thing to do. And continue to monitor the situation by doing UOA's.


Not sure what my builder used as far as putting together this build as you are saying, He is not in the best of health so I don't bombard him with questions. She is on stands for the winter (Getting snow + Ice now) but it will have the heads re- torqued before anymore full boost .And new OA after about 500 miles or so with the new oil & filter. Thank you all for the input here and great forum that appears to have good people.

 

[JDW]

I know one thing since putting in the RL this engine even sounds much quieter . Looking forward to some decent weather sometime.

 

[Jtgrant]

Have you tried the Amsoil cone dry flow air filters? I have a 650 RWHP 03 Cobra (VMP TVS) and so far with the 2 UOA on my new engine. I have found no issues with air filtration.