Just how crazy, exactly

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
I think its cool that you guys are comfortable enough with your bodies to call yourselves mediums - most guys overcompensate and would refer to themselves as larges.



Clevy, where is this limit of consciousness? Do all animals experience it? Only Humans? What about our close relatives, like chimps? How long has it been going on? Caveman? Sure. Okay, pre- Homo sapiens? What was there before we evolved to this state? Single celled bacteria sure don't have a consciousness, so at one point did that just develop? And so then you're saying that every living being or human, since whatever starting point, that has died, has their "conscious" floating around? Doesn't that get crowded? What about a miscarriage - did that 'person' develop enough to share in this experience? I believe that people can have a near-death experience and/or a similar out-of-body feeling (alien abductions?), yet this doesn't prove the existence of something beyond. Perhaps there is something in your subconscious that was planted/imagined from TV shows or past stories - most of these experiences are reportedly quite similar.

I think we (current humans and our ancestors) are afraid of the dark - i.e. death. We worry that there is nothing more, so we make up stories about what happens when you die. You shouldn't have to have an unprovable consequence looming over your head in order to "live right". Morality should not be based upon fear. Although I understand that this is the way that it must be seen for many people in order to behave. That is sad to me. We should treat each other well, regardless of some afterlife belief. Live here, in this world, for this time.




Firstly I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know any of the answers to your questions.
Secondly I'm not pushing nor do I believe in any of the religious garbage spouted by priests,preachers nor anyone who thinks they have all the answers and they found them in a book written by men.

And I agree with the last part of your comment. I was born and raised Roman Catholic so you'll understand my disdain for church and the like.
I don't do drugs. I have. Lots of em however since I died I have no real use for anything that alters my state of mind or causes a loss of self control/lack of judgement.
I too believed religion was mans attempt at justifying their suffering in this life so that the in their next life, or heaven they are kings.

Look. I don't have any answers. I just told you guys what happened to me,and I wrote an honest account of what I saw and felt.
Do I believe in an afterlife where god judges all men,absolutely not,however I do believe this life is not all there is. I experienced it.
I will never joke nor trash another mans belief nor their religion. If that's how they find peace and strength to get through the day then more power to them.
Besides it's not for me to judge someone just because they sin different than me anyways.
I found peace since seeing the other side. I fear nothing,nothing. I've been shot,stabbed,died and returned,there is nothing out there that even brings an inkling of that emotion out of me.
I can truly say that my first death was easily foreseen given my lifestyle and choices and to be honest it shoulda been over however since that day I've done many great things so I think I was meant for something,and hadn't yet done it therefore my time wasn't finished here yet.
Once I've done what I'm supposed to I hope I get to go back to that place I once was,quickly,for this world is filled with pain and sorrow.

 

[d00df00d]

Clevy, no one doubts that you had those experiences. They must have been very powerful indeed. I'm sure we're all happy to take your word that you saw what you saw and felt what you felt.

I think where people have difficulty is with the idea that your experiences actually indicate a whole different reality. I hope you understand that that's the kind of thing that would require more than someone's testimony about a life-changing experience.

 

[Shannow]

The concept that "you are a chemical reaction, then you stop being a chemical reaction" is probably alien to everyone regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

Self awareness, creativity, learning from black and white lines, being able to assimilate that into another chemical chemical framework that can then repeat those black and white lines, and explain them anew to another...I would love to spend a series of evenings listening to someone explain to me how this can be explained purely through chemistry...and then the reaction stops.

Reality is exactly what it is...Clevy's isn't a different one, it's the same. Like the blind men describing an elephant, they all describe it perfectly from their POV, and their descriptions can't be reconciled.

Seriously, 'though, if anyone believes that this is just a complicated series of chemical reactions...and then it stops...it sort of defeats the purpose of continuing to kick around, or visiting Bohemian Grove, or donating to children's charities. It's a chemical reaction, and while complicated and more interesting, holds no more worth than watching bicarb and vinegar.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The concept that "you are a chemical reaction, then you stop being a chemical reaction" is probably alien to everyone regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

Self awareness, creativity, learning from black and white lines, being able to assimilate that into another chemical chemical framework that can then repeat those black and white lines, and explain them anew to another...I would love to spend a series of evenings listening to someone explain to me how this can be explained purely through chemistry...and then the reaction stops.

Reality is exactly what it is...Clevy's isn't a different one, it's the same. Like the blind men describing an elephant, they all describe it perfectly from their POV, and their descriptions can't be reconciled.

Seriously, 'though, if anyone believes that this is just a complicated series of chemical reactions...and then it stops...it sort of defeats the purpose of continuing to kick around, or visiting Bohemian Grove, or donating to children's charities. It's a chemical reaction, and while complicated and more interesting, holds no more worth than watching bicarb and vinegar.


Yes. And all the folks who devalue others based on their religious beliefs are diminished by their criticism. It's PERSONAL, not public IMO.

You have to have a special viewpoint to imagine the entire universe is just a huge cosmic accident, it just happened? And yet I can look out in my back yard and see huge oak trees with millions of leaves and not a single identical one anywhere. As to Clevy's and others out of body experiences, who knows? Most here would probably agree that while modern medical science can make you breathe, your heart beat, and your organs all work, but you can still remain 'dead'. other people simply do not die when they normally would. This does not prove the existence of God, only that there is some immeasurable 'something' within each of us that is unique and special and not from your flesh and blood alone.

What is awareness? How can anyone define it except from their own viewpoint? So all who say "not" are just proving that this is all an incredibly personal ride, and are free to squeal and squawk about religion and its evils from a point within THEIR OWN AWARENESS.

None of which proves anything at all...

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Sam2000
Originally Posted By: laserred96gt
You don't have to be religious, just spiritual. People have reasons to believe what they believe based on their experience, calling them crazy, tinfoil hat or whatever name doesn't make one more of a man.


Well I for one never called anyone crazy. Just pointed out that the mind is powerful and that scientists have claimed that a powerful mechanism is at play in NDE.

Certainly, it wasn't me who posted this:

Originally Posted By: Trav

I know that, sorry if you thought i was calling you a tin foil hat wearer.
I meant that threads on this sort of subject tend to bring out some interesting postings.

 

[Zaedock]

This is all pretty deep, man. It's like were all sitting in the circle.

I grew up Catholic (with Native beliefs as well) and believe in God, but I have a hard time when I watch TV and hear someone telling the world that God saved them from dying in their horrific accident. What about the other people that died? He didn't save them?
My brother was awesome, a good person and after he died, I realized that God is not saving some and taking others. He's just watching, man. I think we have a good moral template on how to treat each other and it's up to us.

Regarding aliens, I know if I was an alien, I would watch Earth from a distance. The human race is too immature to handle a first contact. God bless 'em for staying hidden.

 

[fdcg27]

There are explanations based on quantum theory that would allow for the spontaneous origin of our universe as well as for its spontaneous demise.
How the level of complexity that we observe in both the physical structure of the universe as well as in living organisms on the only world we've observed to host life came to be is a mystery, although there are of course theoretical explanations.
Consider the set of conditions that had to have existed to bring about the creation of the system in which we live as well as the world we inhabit within it.
At least a couple of generations of stars preceeded the formation of the one that we depend upon for life and they contributed all of the heavier elements that make the formation of terrestrial planets possible as well giving them the potential to support life.
A little reading on just how everything from vulcanism to the earth's molten core played a role in the creation of the life supporting environment we enjoy is facinating.
We've grown from hunter gatherers not so many millenia back into creaures who've actually visited another world, albeit one quite close to us. We've even learned to create weapons that use the same fusion reaction that powers our star, although that's a dubious achievement at best.
Just some random thoughts on the beauty of the creation we enjoy, however it came to be.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Seriously, 'though, if anyone believes that this is just a complicated series of chemical reactions...and then it stops...it sort of defeats the purpose of continuing to kick around, or visiting Bohemian Grove, or donating to children's charities. It's a chemical reaction, and while complicated and more interesting, holds no more worth than watching bicarb and vinegar.

I completely and profoundly disagree, and I'm sure a lot of people here do as well. Furthermore, I suspect you know this and know why. Why are you going down this route?

To say that life is at bottom a series of chemical reactions is like saying a country is at bottom a bunch of people. We don't need the supernatural to be able to say that Australia is more than the sum of its parts. It's the same with life.

As for this life being our one and only, I'm sure you can see how that means we only have ONE chance to do right by ourselves and the people we love. It makes life's obligations more urgent, not less. So many people with absolutely zero supernatural or religious beliefs lead very fulfilling and purposeful lives.

I know you're not ignorant of the idea of emergent properties. I know you're also not ignorant of the fact that self-created value is no less real than "intrinsic" value (whatever that means). All you have to do is apply both of those concepts to life, the universe, and everything, and you'll see that beliefs in the supernatural are not necessary.

Lastly, even if you were right that rejection of the supernatural leads to nihilism, that wouldn't say anything whatsoever about the truth of NDEs, would it? I know you know that as well.

 

[jrustles]

What if our brains were just a clump of specialized cells that were the antennae if you will, to another, more pervasive, 'real' dimension that exists exclusive of the physicial world? What if consciousness was the controller of which neural pathways were fired, which neuropeptides were released, which synapses respond? what if the physical expression of consciousness (through the physical responses of our body) were all the secondary reactions, to a primary cause?

i present these 'what if's' to inspire thought, a different perspective to what we've been trained like dogs to believe, not as masquerading answers.


fun fact: it has been scientifically proven that water and plants respond to intention- and intention alone. however the implications of these findings do not bode well to the industry, so no nightly news reports about it.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The concept that "you are a chemical reaction, then you stop being a chemical reaction" is probably alien to everyone regardless of their spiritual beliefs.

Self awareness, creativity, learning from black and white lines, being able to assimilate that into another chemical chemical framework that can then repeat those black and white lines, and explain them anew to another...I would love to spend a series of evenings listening to someone explain to me how this can be explained purely through chemistry...and then the reaction stops.

Reality is exactly what it is...Clevy's isn't a different one, it's the same. Like the blind men describing an elephant, they all describe it perfectly from their POV, and their descriptions can't be reconciled.

Seriously, 'though, if anyone believes that this is just a complicated series of chemical reactions...and then it stops...it sort of defeats the purpose of continuing to kick around, or visiting Bohemian Grove, or donating to children's charities. It's a chemical reaction, and while complicated and more interesting, holds no more worth than watching bicarb and vinegar.


Yes. And all the folks who devalue others based on their religious beliefs are diminished by their criticism. It's PERSONAL, not public IMO.

You have to have a special viewpoint to imagine the entire universe is just a huge cosmic accident, it just happened? And yet I can look out in my back yard and see huge oak trees with millions of leaves and not a single identical one anywhere. As to Clevy's and others out of body experiences, who knows? Most here would probably agree that while modern medical science can make you breathe, your heart beat, and your organs all work, but you can still remain 'dead'. other people simply do not die when they normally would. This does not prove the existence of God, only that there is some immeasurable 'something' within each of us that is unique and special and not from your flesh and blood alone.

What is awareness? How can anyone define it except from their own viewpoint? So all who say "not" are just proving that this is all an incredibly personal ride, and are free to squeal and squawk about religion and its evils from a point within THEIR OWN AWARENESS.

None of which proves anything at all...


an interesting couple of posts here

our society's approach to these issues is fascinating. it's like we're like rats in a cage, who have no idea if, or what lies beyond- on so many levels, not just life and death

. some have escaped and seen a glimpse of the hallways of the animal testing room, only to be captured and returned to the cage- because they're still useful assets with a job to complete. some have escaped and never come back, and some have died. the rest of the vivisected, burned and drugged out rats in the lab feel pity for the escapees and those who've died. an irony, if you ask me.

death is the most popular activity, everyone/thing in the history of physical biology, even aliens, has done it.

 

[Virtuoso]

The probability of it being just a big accident is amazingly small... so is the probability of a creator that has the capacity to do so.

Shrugs.

I believe there are lots of things in this life that can be known that aren't. I won't write any of them off completely until I have compelling evidence for or against it.

I will disregard some that are more improbable than others though. And people that say they KNOW when really, they don't. Some things, it's just not possible to know or to not, concretely.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We've grown from hunter gatherers not so many millenia back into creaures who've actually visited another world, albeit one quite close to us.


Funny how our species being domesticated by a few types of grass gave us time to invent and create....

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
fun fact: it has been scientifically proven that water and plants respond to intention- and intention alone. however the implications of these findings do not bode well to the industry, so no nightly news reports about it.

Hmm....

1. Use of the phrase "scientifically proven"
2. Assertion that is either trivially true or patently false, depending on definitions
3. Preemption of criticism via conspiracy theory
4. Not even a hint of a source for anything

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
fun fact: it has been scientifically proven that water and plants respond to intention- and intention alone. however the implications of these findings do not bode well to the industry, so no nightly news reports about it.

Hmm....

1. Use of the phrase "scientifically proven"
2. Assertion that is either trivially true or patently false, depending on definitions
3. Preemption of criticism via conspiracy theory
4. Not even a hint of a source for anything