Varnish Treatment

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I have been reading on the forum about getting rid of varnish.

Some people say there is no way to get rid of it, others say things like MMO or Auto RX can get rid of it.

A lot of people say it does no harm, however I have read that varnish on valve stems can do harm to the valve stem seals causing oil burn.

My questions:
1. Is there any evidence that there is an additive to get rid of varnish?

2. Is there any truth about varnish degrading valve seals?
 
When I first got my 2000 Buick from the original owner with 80,000 miles on the clock, there was a moderate amount of varnish staining on the rocker arms and whatever else I good see through the oil fill hole. I started running MaxLife through the engine at 2000 mile intervals and the varnish was completely gone after 4000 miles. The only stains that I couldn't get out were the stains in the plastic valve covers; but that's to be expected with plastic.
 
The engine in my Ford truck was pretty heavily varnished when I got it...at least that is my opinion based on the visible varnish on the dipstick, pcv, and whatever I could see down through valve cover. The varnish itself didn't bother me too bad, but the start up tick & clatter the engine made on cold mornings was pretty noticeable. I assumed the varnish wasn't allowing a lash adjuster or timing chain tensioner to get the proper amount of oil. I treated it with Kreen as per the directions, and drained out some very nasty oil afterwards. The start up noises were noticeably reduced after the Kreen treatment, and after a few short changes with various kinds of oil the noises stopped. It has been about three years and the engine is still quiet.
 
A quality synthetic oil and reasonable OCI should clean out all the varnish that is more than just coloring.

I do not agree that varnish will do harm to valve stem seals. Varnish will not form on any surface that comes into contact with another surface. Someone may see a varnished valve stem and broken/cracked valve stem seal, but I would bet the valve stem seal broke/cracked first, then varnish formed.
 
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
The varnish itself didn't bother me too bad, but the start up tick & clatter the engine made on cold mornings was pretty noticeable. I assumed the varnish wasn't allowing a lash adjuster or timing chain tensioner to get the proper amount of oil.


Varnish is sticky; it impedes the flow of oil. If you take the engine part off and remove the oil with lacquer thinner and let it dry, the dry surface will be sticky.
 
I've heard good things about Redline SI-1. Apparently it works so good that some people warn against using the whole bottle at once.
 
Originally Posted By: Spetz
I have been reading on the forum about getting rid of varnish.

Some people say there is no way to get rid of it, others say things like MMO or Auto RX can get rid of it.

A lot of people say it does no harm, however I have read that varnish on valve stems can do harm to the valve stem seals causing oil burn.

My questions:
1. Is there any evidence that there is an additive to get rid of varnish?

2. Is there any truth about varnish degrading valve seals?


On another site for Commodores I visit one forum member claimed that the Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 cleaned the varnish off the rockers as viewed through the oil filler.
 
Originally Posted By: domer10
Few oci of 2000-3000 miles with Mobil 1 or PP removed light varnish from previous vehicles for me.



This is a waste of quality synthetics to me.

As I've posted numerous times before, oil doesn't magically stop working at 2,000 miles. Heck, the add pack has only begun to be fully activated.
 
Varnish only gets laid down after the oil in circulation is saturated with it, and can't hold it anymore.

At that point, it's laid down at the rate at which it is produced in the equipment.

New Oil change, and the oil isn't saturated, and can actually take off some of the varnish that has been laid down.

So do "normal" OCIs on an engine that has varnish, and nothing happens..it can't, because it is saturated early on in the piece.

It takes a long time to lay down varnish, it won't go in 5 minutes.
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: domer10
Few oci of 2000-3000 miles with Mobil 1 or PP removed light varnish from previous vehicles for me.



This is a waste of quality synthetics to me.

As I've posted numerous times before, oil doesn't magically stop working at 2,000 miles. Heck, the add pack has only begun to be fully activated.


Sure it doesn't stop working, but it does get the contaminated oil out and potentially clogged oil filter off. Especially if you have heavy sludge and varnish. Oil does lose its cleaning ability just as any additive is depleted as used....
 
There is no way the top two recommended and coveted syn oils here are spent/saturated in a 2,000 - 3,000 mile change. Doing a few changes like that does nothing but thins your wallet.
Sludge takes time to collect and it takes time to dissolve. I have seen the insides of many an engine, so I have a "rough" idea. That said, I like AutoRx - IMO, it's a good product. It is MADE to clean sludge and the recommended change interval is 2,000 miles when used with conventional and 3,000 miles with synthetic.
 
I don't think my engine is sludged.

When I took the valve covers off everything was just yellow/brown but no sludge anywhere.

Is the Shell brand of oil more potent at cleaning than other brands?
 
Originally Posted By: Spetz
Is the Shell brand of oil more potent at cleaning than other brands?


What you need is a high mileage oil with all the extra detergents in it. Can you get MaxLife in Australia ?
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
There is no way the top two recommended and coveted syn oils here are spent/saturated in a 2,000 - 3,000 mile change. Doing a few changes like that does nothing but thins your wallet.
Sludge takes time to collect and it takes time to dissolve. I have seen the insides of many an engine, so I have a "rough" idea. That said, I like AutoRx - IMO, it's a good product. It is MADE to clean sludge and the recommended change interval is 2,000 miles when used with conventional and 3,000 miles with synthetic.


Synthetics (GrIII, and IV) have a lower solvency due to the elimination, or lack of polar molecules that are present with GrI/II. They will saturate with varnish sludge quite early on, and won't keep cleaning the longer you leave them in.

For interest, I was the sponsor of an Engineering undergraduate thesis into varnish/sludge formation, removal, and detection using patch colorimetry...I've seen first hand how GrII "falls off the wall" in handling existing varnish and sludge.
 
OK Shannow -- so does that mean you you think a synthetic oil would be better at removing varnish, or would a high detergent dino be better ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Synthetics (GrIII, and IV) have a lower solvency due to the elimination, or lack of polar molecules that are present with GrI/II. They will saturate with varnish sludge quite early on, and won't keep cleaning the longer you leave them in.

For interest, I was the sponsor of an Engineering undergraduate thesis into varnish/sludge formation, removal, and detection using patch colorimetry...I've seen first hand how GrII "falls off the wall" in handling existing varnish and sludge.


The big Mobil Oil Corporation back in the nineties didn't know what your school research found, and it costed them hundreds of millions of dollars in lawyers claims and reputation marketing. http://www.avweb.com/news/news/182891-1.html?redirected=1
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
OK Shannow -- so does that mean you you think a synthetic oil would be better at removing varnish, or would a high detergent dino be better ?


Turbines, they are heading back to GrI across the country.

In engines, I have no doubt that synthetics, even at moderately long OCIs prevent sludge and varnish, through their great oxidation resistance, but when they crash, they crash big time.

I personally don't see them as the answer for removing deposits, unless used for really short OCIs, wheich means that there are more cost effective answers.


Originally Posted By: Spetz
I don't think my engine is sludged.

When I took the valve covers off everything was just yellow/brown but no sludge anywhere.

Is the Shell brand of oil more potent at cleaning than other brands?


Dunno, but at $3/L in a recent supercheap sale, I'm giving it, and it's basestock a crack, after having used synthetics and AutoRx previously.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3348435#Post3348435
 
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