VW's not all bad just abused...

[tom slick]

I haven't ever read a pure love thread about any manufacturer of anything here.
American makes are junk
Asian makes are junk appliances
European makes are high maintenance junk
American OPE is old technology junk
Japanese OPE is overhyped junk
American tools are overpriced
Asian tools are junk
European tools are overpriced and hard to find
Light aircraft replacement parts are junk
Replacement auto parts are junk
OEM auto parts are too expensive
European bikes are too expensive
American made bikes are exclusive and expensive
Asian bikes are made in Asia.

I could keep going

 

[ls1mike]

Best post ever. I laughed pretty hard at that one

 

[moving2]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Exactly, I actually prefer a belt to a convoluted timing chain setup which I can't fix myself.

I like the idea of replacing parts in that area before they fail which is why you always replace the waterpump on a timing belt setup IMO. At least if it is a quality replacement part not something from china.


Thermo1223- huh? Not only do timing chain setups typically last the lifetime of the vehicle (or at least to the first engine rebuild), but the water pumps in timing-chain setups typically do, as well. It seems to me you're grasping at straws to justify the additional maintenance cost of a timing-belt setup. If you've had to replace/repair a timing chain setup before engine rebuild time, please do post up some details. Otherwise, your argument is quite a stretch.

 

[hattaresguy]

I was looking at 2014 VW 4 bangers on display at the NY Auto show, they were full of good ideas!

My favorite is the plastic water pump with a little jumper belt driving it! How cute so it can crack and leak in a few years and the little belt can snap stranding you!

VW also seems to have trouble understanding that turbo's get pretty warm, I think they need to head over to Porsche and have a few beers with their engineers. Because they love sticking plastic parts right next to the turbo's. 10 years down the road if you touch that part...crack.

Great engineering!

 

[supton]

I think I prefer timing belts. How good is a chain at 300kmiles going to be?

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: supton
I think I prefer timing belts. How good is a chain at 300kmiles going to be?

How good is the original timing belt going to be?

You are likely on number three and if done properly you are most likely at 1500 to 3000 dollars in maintenance total. Give me a chain any day of the week.

 

[supton]

$700 a pop. Lifetime average has been 46mpg, and I don't drive lightly. I'm ok with the cost. Especially if I get another 100k.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I was looking at 2014 VW 4 bangers on display at the NY Auto show, they were full of good ideas!

My favorite is the plastic water pump with a little jumper belt driving it! How cute so it can crack and leak in a few years and the little belt can snap stranding you!

VW also seems to have trouble understanding that turbo's get pretty warm, I think they need to head over to Porsche and have a few beers with their engineers. Because they love sticking plastic parts right next to the turbo's. 10 years down the road if you touch that part...crack.

Great engineering!


Trying to invent a problem where none exist? Do you think Chevy uses all metal parts near the turbo on the Cruze/Spark/Sonic? Does Buick? Does anyone not use plastic where it is more cost effective for that particular car?

My beef with timing chains is they are completely dependent on the oil that was used and how often it was changed during the vehicle's life. Obviously not everyone abuses their car so much via lack of maintenance. What if they did? What it started rattling one day because as much as your due diligence it didn't present itself as a problem til later.

A belt can be changed out quickly and easily if suspected as a potential failure point.

I wouldn't say I don't like timing chain's but it is a lot harder to do the work yourself if there is a problem. However minute it may be.

 

[moving2]

Originally Posted By: supton
I think I prefer timing belts. How good is a chain at 300kmiles going to be?


supton- on most cars, it will likely require replacement right around the time you want to be looking at your first engine rebuild (300-400k on my Landcruiser). This makes it quite convenient, actually.

 

[accent2012]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I was looking at 2014 VW 4 bangers on display at the NY Auto show, they were full of good ideas!

My favorite is the plastic water pump with a little jumper belt driving it! How cute so it can crack and leak in a few years and the little belt can snap stranding you!

VW also seems to have trouble understanding that turbo's get pretty warm, I think they need to head over to Porsche and have a few beers with their engineers. Because they love sticking plastic parts right next to the turbo's. 10 years down the road if you touch that part...crack.

Great engineering!


Trying to invent a problem where none exist? Do you think Chevy uses all metal parts near the turbo on the Cruze/Spark/Sonic? Does Buick? Does anyone not use plastic where it is more cost effective for that particular car?

My beef with timing chains is they are completely dependent on the oil that was used and how often it was changed during the vehicle's life. Obviously not everyone abuses their car so much via lack of maintenance. What if they did? What it started rattling one day because as much as your due diligence it didn't present itself as a problem til later.

A belt can be changed out quickly and easily if suspected as a potential failure point.

I wouldn't say I don't like timing chain's but it is a lot harder to do the work yourself if there is a problem. However minute it may be.


It's not just oil that can contribute to timing chain failure, although it is a common ingredient in diagnosing failed timing chain... From my experience, typical timing chain failures are due to:

A) poor oil servicing (i.e., changing oil beyond the time it's due)
B) chain tensioners wearing out/failing
C) plastic chain guides breaking due to becoming brittle (common for GM vehicles)

I had a plastic chain guide break on my first car (Saturn SL), it would still run, but very poorly!

I replaced a chain tensioner as it was recommended to do so after so many miles on the Nissan Sentra. The tensioner was worn, but not severely, and after replacement the car ran sooo much better.

So yeah, there are other things that can contribute to chain failure. Chains just last longer, about the life of the vehicle when people usually trade it in for something newer.

Moving parts just don't last forever...

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I was looking at 2014 VW 4 bangers on display at the NY Auto show, they were full of good ideas!

My favorite is the plastic water pump with a little jumper belt driving it! How cute so it can crack and leak in a few years and the little belt can snap stranding you!

VW also seems to have trouble understanding that turbo's get pretty warm, I think they need to head over to Porsche and have a few beers with their engineers. Because they love sticking plastic parts right next to the turbo's. 10 years down the road if you touch that part...crack.

Great engineering!


Trying to invent a problem where none exist? Do you think Chevy uses all metal parts near the turbo on the Cruze/Spark/Sonic? Does Buick? Does anyone not use plastic where it is more cost effective for that particular car?

My beef with timing chains is they are completely dependent on the oil that was used and how often it was changed during the vehicle's life. Obviously not everyone abuses their car so much via lack of maintenance. What if they did? What it started rattling one day because as much as your due diligence it didn't present itself as a problem til later.

A belt can be changed out quickly and easily if suspected as a potential failure point.

I wouldn't say I don't like timing chain's but it is a lot harder to do the work yourself if there is a problem. However minute it may be.


No everyone elses turbo 4 bangers are laid out better. Have you actually seen the engines in question because I was drinking a beer last week looking over all of them.

I'm not talking about the T belt, I'm talking about the little jumper belt buried way down deep that runs that horrible plastic water pump. Its located on the back side of the engine by the transmission or electric motor in the case of the hybrid they had on the stand. Some poor SOB is going to get soaked changing it, or worst yet if that little vacuum cleaner looking belt snaps no water pump! Instant overheat! Just like BMW's electric pumps.

 

[Thermo1223]

So really your basis for it being a maintenance nightmare is based on past experience? How do you know it's plastic? Define "better". Have you owned the 1.8 TSI in question? How you spoken to mechanics who actually had to change the water pump?

What was that? NO!

Ok just checking....

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
I haven't ever read a pure love thread about any manufacturer of anything here.
American makes are junk
Asian makes are junk appliances
European makes are high maintenance junk
American OPE is old technology junk
Japanese OPE is overhyped junk
American tools are overpriced
Asian tools are junk
European tools are overpriced and hard to find
Light aircraft replacement parts are junk
Replacement auto parts are junk
OEM auto parts are too expensive
European bikes are too expensive
American made bikes are exclusive and expensive
Asian bikes are made in Asia.

I could keep going


Yep!

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
So really your basis for it being a maintenance nightmare is based on past experience? How do you know it's plastic? Define "better". Have you owned the 1.8 TSI in question? How you spoken to mechanics who actually had to change the water pump?

What was that? NO!

Ok just checking....


Because the pump is black plastic? Have you seen the 14 VW engines? My last ones were 90's vintage so I'm a bit off I don't know how far back that abortion of a design goes.

You assume much, but your knowledge seems shallow. Here is a chance to redeem yourself.

What benefit does an engine driven water pump made of plastic, mounted on the back of the engine, driven with a tiny belt offer? BMW was going for fuel savings that's no secret but VW is not removing the parasitic loses of the pump from the motor.

Whats VW's reasoning for going off on a tangent?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: supton
I think I prefer timing belts. How good is a chain at 300kmiles going to be?


supton- on most cars, it will likely require replacement right around the time you want to be looking at your first engine rebuild (300-400k on my Landcruiser). This makes it quite convenient, actually.


I guess I could live with that lifespan. The rest of the car is likely done for by then.

Although at 300k I don't think my engine is anywhere near rebuild time.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
So really your basis for it being a maintenance nightmare is based on past experience? How do you know it's plastic? Define "better". Have you owned the 1.8 TSI in question? How you spoken to mechanics who actually had to change the water pump?

What was that? NO!

Ok just checking....


Because the pump is black plastic? Have you seen the 14 VW engines? My last ones were 90's vintage so I'm a bit off I don't know how far back that abortion of a design goes.

You assume much, but your knowledge seems shallow. Here is a chance to redeem yourself.

What benefit does an engine driven water pump made of plastic, mounted on the back of the engine, driven with a tiny belt offer? BMW was going for fuel savings that's no secret but VW is not removing the parasitic loses of the pump from the motor.

Whats VW's reasoning for going off on a tangent?



The pump housing is black ABS plastic like 1 million other things on a car's engine. The pump internals are metal. That tiny belt has also been used on ALL 2.0 TSI engines as well once the running gear went to a timing chain setup. This is all for the sake of the EPA/FED so cry as much as you want everyone is doing these things to burn as little fuel as cleanly as possible to keep the big polluters on the road. Can the pump fail? Sure it can like anything else on the car. Will it? Who knows, just like who knew GM's ignition debacle could cause such a blatant safety issue. I bet people are crying for GM's death!

It has only a little to do with parasitic loss just like Dodge's 3.6 Pentastar V6 with the electronically controlled oil pump. Every little bit helps, it has more to do with emissions and rapid warm up on a cold day. You don't need a pump running full bore when it is 15F outside. Also packaging and maintenance as how would making the pump part of the timing chain running gear or as big as an alternator make it easier? The former would certainly not and latter would most likely affect it's placement under the hood.

I owned a 2010 Mazda 3 2.5, timing chained except for the water pump. It was driven off the serpentine belt which is not a toothed belt and can slip much easier and break. It was also exposed to the elements. Was I worried it would leave me stranded? Not really and it has more reasons to break than the 1.8t which is toothed and not exposed to the elements. Also the belt is just for the water pump not loaded by other components.

Abortion? So you basically came in here to hate as much as possible but if I ask to outright tell me why it's bad you avoid the question. Seriously grow up we are adults here, you can't understand something that's fine, don't like it that's fine. Just making a blanket statement that it will fail is ridiculous.

I have no love for Honda but I don't come right in and rip on them every chance I get. All I say is be mindful of the transmission if an automatic, everything else is how you maintain it.

 

[KrisZ]

Very well said Thermo!
VW is not perfect, no question about it, but the excuses that are used to raise Toyota and Honda above other makes are hilarious at best and pathetic at worst.

When Honda puts in an engine with VCN system that cooks oil in one bank, everything is honky dory. When they have engines, along with Toyota that are known to burn oil in excess, everything is fine cause they're Honda or Toyota. When millions of vehicles are recalled by Honda and Toyota, everything is fine, more than fine in fact, as it's a sign of how much they "care" about the customer.

But here we are discussing "junk" VW products that actually according to some databases on the net, have very similar reliability ratings as Honda and Toyota.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: SF0059
VWs are not as terrible as everyone makes them out to be.


They should use that in their advertising!

 

[hattaresguy]

Hate? I call a spade a spade sorry if it hurts your feelings. VW group including Audi does some [censored] stuff, but other manufacture are just as guilty.

I still say that pump is inferior to a traditional metal serp belt or gear driven one. Something with a nice proven track record to last 20 years which a plastic pump in my experience simply will not. Which is why good German cars like Mercedes and Porsche still use such a pump. Your post is much about nothing, I'm referring to only VW engine pumps and nothing else but your off on tangents.

Once you drop the brand favoritism you can start to see some of the problems they have.


Drop the hard on and ego towards certain name plates, they all have warts.

I view that horrible VW pump design like the BMW electric one or the Mercedes V12 coils or ABC. Outside of warranty around 70k its going to fail and cost you $3k. The only difference is I'm more willing to look the other way with a $3k bill on a $60k or $120k car than a $20k one.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Likewise, but the bottom line is EVERY mfgr makes some garbage.

The Internet adds hugely to the amplification of issues, though. You must remember you rarely hear from the many ordinary happy owners who simply drive the cars...