"The world's cheap reserves are basically gone"

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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While I agree with most of Tempest's viewpoint, most motorists have no alternative but to buy gasoline.

There are always alternatives if one is stubborn enough. I admit that a gasoline powered automobile is the path of least resistance.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
What does exporting have to do with a product that is sold on global scale from multiple locations?

Whomever is exporting the oil is getting a better price for their product than they are from domestic customers. Limiting the market to which people can sell oil will only lower supply globally and increase prices.

~$2.50 a gallon? I would love it. Why not $1.50? Or a buck? What is the cost of extraction, transportation, government regulation, refinement, salaries, retirement....that it takes to get 1 gallon of gas into your specific gas tank at any time of the day?


If we're exporting refined products, then we have enough of our own supply to lower the price here in the U.S....if they want to make the absolute highest possible profit that's fine, but they can get it from the exports and give us a break...and the cost to bring a gallon of gas to the market is nowhere near high enough to justify $4 gas...the industry would still be making plenty of profit if gas was $2.50 here in the states...
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While I agree with most of Tempest's viewpoint, most motorists have no alternative but to buy gasoline.

There are always alternatives if one is stubborn enough. I admit that a gasoline powered automobile is the path of least resistance.


Like I told Tempest, go ahead and retrofit your vehicle with the parts so it can burn natural gas and head out on a trip across the country and we'll see how far you get...
 
But once again, there is really no need for alternatives. The ONLY reason alternatives are there is because of an artificial limiting of supply (and attempts to artificially limit demand but those are not working). There is no shortage of oil.

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While I agree with most of Tempest's viewpoint, most motorists have no alternative but to buy gasoline.

There are always alternatives if one is stubborn enough. I admit that a gasoline powered automobile is the path of least resistance.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
There is no shortage of oil.

That doesn't mean alternatives should not be explored. And "shortage of oil" is a very vague term. There can be a shortage of refined gasoline, a shortage by way of shipping issues, and so forth.
 
Gasoline (or, crude) is now a commodity. The price is controlled by the market, which in my opinion, is highly volatile and biased due to emotions and human behavior.

If you would like to base the future costs of energy on this platform, be my guest. Alternatives do not have to REPLACE petroleum, but alternatives can moderate the prices.

It is almost never a good practice to place all one's eggs in one basket.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
But once again, there is really no need for alternatives. The ONLY reason alternatives are there is because of an artificial limiting of supply (and attempts to artificially limit demand but those are not working). There is no shortage of oil.

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While I agree with most of Tempest's viewpoint, most motorists have no alternative but to buy gasoline.

There are always alternatives if one is stubborn enough. I admit that a gasoline powered automobile is the path of least resistance.


I agree the oil industry limits supply (and there are no real shortages), but wouldn't having more energy sources be a good thing? Why continue on with the oil industry cornering the market and being able to hold consumers hostage? I could only see there being several sources of energy to power our vehicles as a good thing....and wouldn't it be nice to have some cleaner energy sources?
 
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Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Gasoline (or, crude) is now a commodity. The price is controlled by the market, which in my opinion, is highly volatile and biased due to emotions and human behavior.

If you would like to base the future costs of energy on this platform, be my guest. Alternatives do not have to REPLACE petroleum, but alternatives can moderate the prices.

It is almost never a good practice to place all one's eggs in one basket.


I still say prices are controlled by the industry limiting supply, but speculators definitely play a role...and I've always said the only thing that will bring down gas prices on a permanent basis is by bringing alternatives on line in large enough quantities to present some real competition for the oil industry...
 
Yes.

Originally Posted By: grampi
I agree the oil industry limits supply (and there are no real shortages), but wouldn't having more energy sources be a good thing? Why continue on with the oil industry cornering the market and being able to hold consumers hostage? I could only see there being several sources of energy to power our vehicles as a good thing....and wouldn't it be nice to have some cleaner energy sources?
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
I agree the oil industry limits supply (and there are no real shortages), but wouldn't having more energy sources be a good thing? Why continue on with the oil industry cornering the market and being able to hold consumers hostage?

We can't even just blame the oil industry, or individual countries, or companies. There are plenty of things involved in getting oil from the ground to become gasoline at the pumps, and a lot of things can disrupt supply and, therefore, price. More energy sources would be a fantastic thing.
 
If you don't like playing hostage to the energy market you can choose to use less or go off-grid. Most of us can't afford to do the latter. Given the types of vehicles I see on the road these days I have to say that Americans are still not too worried about the cost of fuel. Some of us have received the message and have taken action. Others just sit on the sidelines and complain as though cheap energy is a birthright.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak

There are always alternatives if one is stubborn enough. I admit that a gasoline powered automobile is the path of least resistance.


Gas is the "standard" because it is cheap, plentiful, and reliable. If other fuels bested its utility for the same price, they would quickly become the "standard" that "alternatives" are measured by.

There are plenty of alternatives out there to replace gasoline, they are simply more expensive. Why should people be forced to use fuels that are more expensive? That is a great waste of resources.
 
We first need to shed the paradigm of individual vehicles. There will be a place for them in the future, but as many have most likely noticed, you can never have enough lanes on a highway.

Gasoline is a highly concentrated energy storage medium. An energy source's value ought to be directly related to its energy content per unit of mass. I have not done the necessary research, but I'll bet someone on here has. At present, I believe that gasoline, diesel, kerosene (jet fuel) are still probably the most cost effective energy sources. But, as with all human endeavors we often fail to include other costs because they are far more difficult to quantify. How much has been expended on waging war that was, in part, due to where we source our energy? What will be the ultimate cost to us due to pollution of air, water, and land in the quest for this resource? If global warming caused by human activity exists, how much of it will be caused by our use of this energy source?

There is almost too much to ponder here. Humans tend to follow the path of least resistance, no matter where it leads them. Regardless of your beliefs about the origins of mankind our activity on this planet is an experiment that could easily result in failure as numerous mass extinctions in the Earth's history can attest.
 
The US is awash in energy resources, and not just oil. To artificially restrict their use and cause subsequent economic hardship to the country as a whole is at its core immoral.

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Others just sit on the sidelines and complain as though cheap energy is a birthright.
 
^If you want capitalism then immorality comes with it. I'm not saying that similar bad behavior doesn't accompany other economic systems. You can fight it by doing everything in your power to reduce, or eliminate, demand. If you ask your government to regulate private industry to prevent the perceived immorality then you no longer want capitalism.

Plus, I do not believe what you say is going on is the case. But, I could entertain specific examples. Hearsay, rumors, and TV news reports don't count.
 
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We first need to shed the paradigm of individual vehicles.

As opposed to what?

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we often fail to include other costs because they are far more difficult to quantify.

Yes. In fact, many factors are impossible to determine. So given that you recognize this, how exactly are central planners to do their jobs?;
 
^As opposed to a combination of mass transit and autonomous vehicles. Pardon my pipe dream, but I can see the near future in which places like here will become hopelessly gridlocked.

If you want central planning I guess we should seek the advice of the Chinese and the former Soviet Union. It worked really well for them, apparently.

I had better stop commenting or the thread will become too political. I am one of those who believe that gasoline is still far too cheap.
 
Fortunately for everyone else your opinion will make no difference whatsoever.

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
I am one of those who believe that gasoline is still far too cheap.
 
Why should I do everything in my power to reduce, or eliminate demand? Energy demand is an adjunct to nearly every form of economic growth the world has.

I want to promote it so that everyone has a chance at a better life, thank you.

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
^If you want capitalism then immorality comes with it. I'm not saying that similar bad behavior doesn't accompany other economic systems. You can fight it by doing everything in your power to reduce, or eliminate, demand. If you ask your government to regulate private industry to prevent the perceived immorality then you no longer want capitalism.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
There are plenty of alternatives out there to replace gasoline, they are simply more expensive. Why should people be forced to use fuels that are more expensive? That is a great waste of resources.

I never said they should be so forced. I simply said there are alternatives if one is stubborn enough. Society has people who use gas, who use diesel, LPG, CNG, all the way through to those who refuse to use any of those and live off the grid entirely.
 
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