These "all weather tires" vs performance snow tire

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: edyvw

So, I yet to see tire manufacturer that will provide performance of winter tire in winter and performance of summer tire in summer, with good longevity in one tire.

You never will either, but alot of people never buy anything but mediocre all seasons and really don't care about warm weather handling other than wet traction. So a slightly tuned mediocre all season that can get the snow flake rating is a winner for them if they have to buy winter tires by law.
Hankook has the Optimo 4S which has a 600 wear rating and the snowflake at a decent price. I almost bought a set for the Tracker as it will be done in a couple years and I didn't want to buy two sets of tires for it. Dry handling is way down on the list of priorities for the Tracker, so I ended up with some new old stock X-ice's for it. I think they will last long enough, even used year round.

But point is, that traction is not all, or I would say, it is not number 1 problem. Problem is how to STOP on icy roads, snowy roads etc.
All cars that I saw this winter in accidents could not stop properly, or they lost lateral traction and ended up in a ditch. Those in ditch were usually AWD, mostly pick-up's.


I totally agree, for my all season use, the trickiest conditions are winter driving, so I figured the best compromise was just to run winter tires year round. I think alot of people who's tires age out, would be better off with just running some of the new winter/ice tires.
I am quite impressed with my yokohama ig52c's on the Focus, they seem to do everything better than the cooper starfire all season tires, probably with the exeception of wear. If I only drove 10k miles a year though, I might just keep on buying winter tires.

 

[123Saab]

The Only All-Seasons I ever used that actually behave like a winter tire are the now discontinued Nokian Vativaa's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160585

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I don't mind an all-season in the summer.

Neither of my vehicles are performance cars, they don't get driven near their edge ever. My Focus does occasionally drive on seasonal highways that may have some mud on them.


Originally Posted By: 123Saab
The Only All-Seasons I ever used that actually behave like a winter tire are the now discontinued Nokian Vativaa's.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2160585

I have them in my parents garage - came on my Cherokee. They are EXCELLENT in the snow and ice!

 

[michaelluscher]

I've been extremely happy with the H rated Primacy MXV4's on my Taurus. This past winter here in NYC has been a decent test for a All season, its no Chicago or Albany, but its still a good test.

You had to floor it like a retard to get them to spin off the line, didn't feel particularly twitchy on the odd patch of black ice, and with a car that doesn't have ABS, I didn't lock them once unless I drove like a retard...

 

[orso]

Quote:

Are you sure? I had TS790 and TS 810 on Octavia, both had snow flake.
Yeah, in many countries snow flake is BIG deal. I know that many police officers are going to check pattern, but in Germany in particular, you could have an issue. I know also, god forbid, if you have an accident in Germany, that could play huge role with police, insurance etc.

Yes, I have checked it several times when I had them and could not find the symbol. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the tires were marked with *, so they were made for BMW. The size was 205/55 R16 91H. Based on what you say I am happy that my current Pirellis have the snowflake as I often drive through Germany now.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: orso
Quote:
You forgot one thing. In countries that have strong winters (Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, North Italy, parts of France, Sweden, Norway, etc) except M+S you have to have snow flake sign. If you do not have snow flake sign, when it comes to law, it is like driving on summer tires.


I didn't know that. I know the snowflake in the mountain symbol means that the tire passed some snow traction tests. Thanks for the info. Actually my last winter tires were Continental TS790 and they had only M+S but no snowflake. It seems I was lucky I was never checked by police when driving abroad

Maybe you can confirm this, but my impression is that because the mountain/snowflake symbol was originated in the US (for the Canadian market), European countries haven't been all that excited to adopt the symbol. That having it on a tire creates a negative consumer reaction. That might explain why many winter tires in Europe don't have it - or at least slowed down the symbol's appearance on the sidewall- even though the tires would pass the test.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: orso
Quote:
You forgot one thing. In countries that have strong winters (Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, North Italy, parts of France, Sweden, Norway, etc) except M+S you have to have snow flake sign. If you do not have snow flake sign, when it comes to law, it is like driving on summer tires.


I didn't know that. I know the snowflake in the mountain symbol means that the tire passed some snow traction tests. Thanks for the info. Actually my last winter tires were Continental TS790 and they had only M+S but no snowflake. It seems I was lucky I was never checked by police when driving abroad

Maybe you can confirm this, but my impression is that because the mountain/snowflake symbol was originated in the US (for the Canadian market), European countries haven't been all that excited to adopt the symbol. That having it on a tire creates a negative consumer reaction. That might explain why many winter tires in Europe don't have it - or at least slowed down the symbol's appearance on the sidewall- even though the tires would pass the test.

I am not sure how many winter tire sets I bought when I lived there and still own car there (have Continental TS830 on a car), but each one of them has snowflake symbol. I had GoodYear Ultra Grip 4,5, 6, 7, 7+ and 8, Conti TS 790,810 and now 830. Hankook W300 (horrible tire), Sava Eskimo S3 (amazing tire for deep snow and ice).
Even in the law it clearly states that ONLY tire with the snowflake is considered as dedicated snow tire and ONLY one that is acceptable as winter equipment from 11/15-04/15.
To be honest, I never saw in Europe winter tire without snowflake.

 

[Ken2]

What do all-season snowflake/mountain tires give up? Summer wear? Summer handling responsiveness? Max braking traction?


Sometimes folks who don't read this forum need to be reminded of exactly what M+S on their tires means:
For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):

1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:

Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.

None of that means that the M+S tire is any good in mud or snow. I've had some deep tread M+S tires that were surprisingly good on snow and some that were distressingly bad on snow. Snowflake-on-Mountain tires have actually passed a traction test on snow.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
What do all-season snowflake/mountain tires give up? Summer wear? Summer handling responsiveness? Max braking traction?


Sometimes folks who don't read this forum need to be reminded of exactly what M+S on their tires means:
For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):

1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:

Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.

None of that means that the M+S tire is any good in mud or snow. I've had some deep tread M+S tires that were surprisingly good on snow and some that were distressingly bad on snow. Snowflake-on-Mountain tires have actually passed a traction test on snow.

I know looking at breaking tests that regular All-Season tires M+S (without snowflake) sometimes have 40-50ft longer braking distance then summer tires in warm weather.
When it comes to dedicated winter tires, driving them during summer means that following winter probably you will need new tires. They are goner during summer.
I am actually replacing my Blizzak's LM-60 on Monday, and putting Michelin PSS because temperature is already in 70's.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Every snow storm, when I try to get to ski resorts around I-70 in Colorado, to ski on fresh powder, there are issues with drivers on all season tires. I learned lesson early, so I always take back roads during snow storms. But there is big talk in Colorado where they going to change laws and probably require chains for drivers without dedicated winter tires during snow weather. This year was bad, I think every snow storm they had to close down Vail pass (11,500ft) because someone would get stuck etc. So I would say some changes are coming.


Don't say that too loud. There are many people here that say we are foolish for buying dedicated snow tires because all seasons work 100% of the time. Especially with an AWD vehicle .

I'll stick to all seasons for summer and dedicated winter tires for winter.

My Cherokee even gets studded and siped all terrains for winter.


I have never seen anyone say that.

I am sure you include me in that group. Saying "I" do not need them is not saying you are foolish if you feel you do.

 

[Ken2]

Edy, I know that regular snows will wear quickly in summer. But, how about a tire like the Nokian WR G3..."the Nokian WR G3 SUV feels at home in the varying North American weather conditions with excellent winter grip and driving response and all-season durability and comfort....Severe Service Emblem or Mountain Snowflake Symbol designation rated for use in severe winter conditions."

If Nokian can really do this, why aren't other tire makers doing the same thing?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Edy, I know that regular snows will wear quickly in summer. But, how about a tire like the Nokian WR G3..."the Nokian WR G3 SUV feels at home in the varying North American weather conditions with excellent winter grip and driving response and all-season durability and comfort....Severe Service Emblem or Mountain Snowflake Symbol designation rated for use in severe winter conditions."

If Nokian can really do this, why aren't other tire makers doing the same thing?

From my experience, I can only say: better winter capabilities, worse summer capabilities. If tire is excellent in ice and snow, there is no way it is going to be good on warm weather.
Of course Nokian will say that. They are trying to sell tire.
Take Michelin xIce3 into consideration. They even give 40K warranty. But read tests, to 60mph on ice they are far behind Blizzak's. But then, Blizzak's, you can actually see how they disappear every day lol

 

[CapriRacer]

I see this as all about the compromise.

Heck, even racing tires come in different versions for the conditions. Full wets, intermediates, long lasting hard tires, and rapid wearing grippy tires.

Chose carefully, grasshopper.

 

[Touring5]

Interesting thread.

When I bought my 2008 Outback in December, I put on a set of the Nokian WR G3 tires. In what was one of the harshest winters around here in several years, they were quite good (the combo was better than Gislavads on my SAAB 900). Now that the weather has warmed, I can't say that they're bad at all. Of course on this car, I don't push it hard.

I think they're a good compromise providing you aren't expecting them to be high-mileage tires. It's perfect for me because I don't put a lot of miles on the car.

Also, in my area we can have 15" of snow and below zero temperatures one week and then rain and 40 degrees the next. Half the time there is no snow on the roads. The Nokians are leaps and bounds better than, say blizzaks when the roads are clear or just wet.

One other factor that went into my decision was the whole TPMS problem. Using dedicated snows would require extra $ for four sensors and then the cost to re-pair the tires to the car when changing over (pay someone or buy the equipment) - either that or just put up with the warning light for several months.

 

[krzyss]

Which Blizzaks?
I bet if you bought LM series you would have similar experience to WR G3.

Krzys

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
Which Blizzaks?
I bet if you bought LM series you would have similar experience to WR G3.

Krzys

I have enough driving experience in snow to see what tires could be good on snow.
Yes, LM-60, and Nokian is not even close when it comes to aggressiveness of tread, separation of tree blocks etc.

 

[geeman789]

My experience with the WR's went like this... when new, surprisingly good in winter, after 1 year, ok in winter, after 2 years, so so, after 3 years, DONE.

My Nokian hakkapalita' RSI's... when new, phenomenal. After 5 years, still very good, even with almost no tread left. Replaced with new Hakkapalita R's...

And Edyvw, sorry, but you really cant tell by looking at a tire how it will perform in winter... the compound is the most important part... and they all look the same!

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
My experience with the WR's went like this... when new, surprisingly good in winter, after 1 year, ok in winter, after 2 years, so so, after 3 years, DONE.

My Nokian hakkapalita' RSI's... when new, phenomenal. After 5 years, still very good, even with almost no tread left. Replaced with new Hakkapalita R's...

And Edyvw, sorry, but you really cant tell by looking at a tire how it will perform in winter... the compound is the most important part... and they all look the same!


Compound is most important on packed snow, ice and wet handling. Tread design is most important when it comes to slush, deep snow and hydroplaning.
I want tire that has both. For example Michelin xIce 3 is very good in packed snow, went handling. 3+ inches of snow and you are stuck in Rocky mountains, simply because tread design is too "compressed." Same is on slush, there is no enough separation between tread blocks for slush evacuation.
Yes, for example, this Michelin or Nokian WR G3 will be better in dry then Bridgestone LM-60, but I am not buying winter tire for that, I have Michelin PSS for that.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: edyvw

CFor example Michelin xIce 3 is very good in packed snow, went handling. 3+ inches of snow and you are stuck in Rocky mountains,


umm.. sure.. no exaggeration there... really.

 

[krzyss]

XIce Xi3 can handle 12" of snow in hills above Worcester, MA.
Ground clearance becomes issue sooner than traction.

Maybe thin air in Rocky Mountains impacts the compound?

Krzys