As If Nitrogen Filling Is Special?

[Shannow]

As an aside, I would think that helium and argon would leak faster, being monatomic.

the generators at work are filled with hydrogen (60 tonnes of steel, copper, and insulation spinning at 3,000RPM,and hydrogen provides less windage, and better heat transfer).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-cooled_turbo_generator

During maitnenance, we use tables like this
http://www.lacotech.com/ProductFiles/997300658_leaktechref.pdf

To work out if the leakage will be safe, when we are on either air or CO2 (displace air with CO2 before hydrogen filling, and reverse before maintenance)

We always use the same figure for air/nitrogen (but we never use nitrogen generally, as it's expensive).

 

[FetchFar]

I hadn't thought of the air humidity issue being a (slight) problem, or permeability thru tire rubber/valves. I always thought P = densityRT (ideal gas law) held true. What if CO2 was the gas used? Better or same? just no water please

 

[Barkleymut]

was this blend synthetic?

Originally Posted By: chainblu
When I worked at an tire shop years ago, sometimes when a customer asked me if we could put nitrogen in tires, I would tell them that we have a blend that we put in all of the tires. I would say that we found it was more economical to use about an 80/20 nitro/oxy blend and we have a big green tank in the back room (the color of our air compressor).

They were usually pleased that they were getting a 'good' deal.

The best part was that I was telling the truth.

 

[geeman789]

Some dealers around here try and charge RIDICULOUS! amounts for nitrogen fills on new cars, one dealer was at $ 400.00...!!

They were adding it into the final sale invoice... freight/pdi, air/tire tax, admin fees, nitrogen fill...

Those pretty green valve caps are real expensive...!

 

[Rand]

Yea we have one of those... they sell a 5000$ car security system that contains about 50$ in parts.

they also give you "5000$" more than blue book value for your trade in

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
As an aside, I would think that helium and argon would leak faster, being monatomic.

the generators at work are filled with hydrogen (60 tonnes of steel, copper, and insulation spinning at 3,000RPM,and hydrogen provides less windage, and better heat transfer).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-cooled_turbo_generator

During maitnenance, we use tables like this
http://www.lacotech.com/ProductFiles/997300658_leaktechref.pdf

To work out if the leakage will be safe, when we are on either air or CO2 (displace air with CO2 before hydrogen filling, and reverse before maintenance)

We always use the same figure for air/nitrogen (but we never use nitrogen generally, as it's expensive).


When i worked at the battery factory we used helium to check for leaks on the just welded shut cells. It was the easiest to leak and easiest to check for.

 

[Kestas]

Because humidity is the biggest plus for using nitrogen, I simply exchange the air in my tires on a cold day in January when the dew point is near 0F.

 

[Ducked]

I keep meaning to get around to sourcing some (it can apparently be had very cheaply here in Taiwan) because I've seen some credible evidence that it reduces the oxidative degredation of tyre rubber.

Since I do low miles, my tyres are likely to degrade before they wear out. That wouldn't be true for most people.

The other alleged/reported benefits don't interest me.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Since I do low miles, my tyres are likely to degrade before they wear out. That wouldn't be true for most people.

True, but remember that the bulk of the degradation is on the outside, in the sun.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Since I do low miles, my tyres are likely to degrade before they wear out. That wouldn't be true for most people.

True, but remember that the bulk of the degradation is on the outside, in the sun.

That MAY be true, I dunno.

It could just be that's the degradation that one notices. Most of the data I've seen probably originates or was elicited as a forensic response to the infamous Bridgestone/Ford Explorer episode, and concentrates on internal failure.

Anyway, I've got an even more speculative fix for the external degradation. I treat them with sunflower oil.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3306862/Re:_5_year_maint#Post3306862

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
I hadn't thought of the air humidity issue being a (slight) problem, or permeability thru tire rubber/valves. I always thought P = densityRT (ideal gas law) held true. What if CO2 was the gas used? Better or same? just no water please


The Ideal Gas Law: PV= nRT

That is a very good approximation for most gases at low temperatures and low pressures - meaning the types of pressures and temperatures we normally experience. Where the formula starts to fall apart is at very high pressures (say over 1000 psi) and high temperatures (say over 1000°F) where the molecules are vigorously interacting with one another.

Water? This is important only if the water is condensing. If you are filling your tires from a tank, the water condenses in the tank and you are filling your tires with air well below the dew point. Besides, water does permeate through the tire sidewall and reaches an equilibrium with the outside air. Anyone seen water in a recently demounted tire? I thought not.

Even water vapor follows the Ideal Gas Law, so I just don't see the need in street tires to be worried about water vapor.

 

[Traction]

I don't understand why everyone is so down on nitrogen. If someone could explain the benefits of filling tires with compressed air, laden with oxygen and quite often 100% humidity, I would like to hear it. I have dismounted many tires and have seen plenty of moisture, up to a 1/4 cup. Usually someone with leaky beads inflating their tires every other day with wet air. Sure, some of the nitrogen benefits are overstated, but I've been using it for 10 yrs. now, and I have seen the benefits. Less bead seat corrosion and better pressure retention. Biggest problem I see is no one uses really dry air. A small compressor would only have dry air with a min. 30 gal. tank left for a few hours to cool and condense the air. Can't fill a tire with a running compressor without a refrigerated air dryer. Yes some moisture can permeate back into the tire in a small amount, but it takes longer for a wet tire to dry, and with oxygen you have bead seat corrosion sooner, then a leaky tire that needs more air and water pumped back in. All my nitrogen filled tires after months of setting will all be within 1/2 lb. of each other. I also put it in every customers car, no charge, because it it the right thing to do. Why is compressed air better???

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Anyway, I've got an even more speculative fix for the external degradation. I treat them with sunflower oil.

That may work, but I've never tried.

I've taken off plenty of tires off of agricultural equipment. The insides don't tend to suffer a lot, even though they're old tires, spending a lot of time sitting in the sun, gather few real miles. Often, a taxi tire would get a second life as a tire on a discer or a seed drill, which is the best apples to apples comparison, because you could retrofit such a thing with those tubeless tires.

 

[Ken2]

Nobody is down on using nitrogen to inflate tires. We're only down on paying for it. I'll take free 100% dry nitrogen any day.

There are plenty of air driers available at moderate cost for air compressors. Somebody in the shop has to care enough to buy the air driers and maintain them.

Quote:
Some dealers around here try and charge RIDICULOUS! amounts for nitrogen fills on new cars, one dealer was at $ 400.00...!!

They were adding it into the final sale invoice... freight/pdi, air/tire tax, admin fees, nitrogen fill...

Those pretty green valve caps are real expensive...!
Keep in mind that the so-called finance manager isn't salaried. He gets paid on commission. If he doesn't sell you something extra or cheat you, he gets no pay check.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Anyway, I've got an even more speculative fix for the external degradation. I treat them with sunflower oil.

That may work, but I've never tried.

I've taken off plenty of tires off of agricultural equipment. The insides don't tend to suffer a lot, even though they're old tires, spending a lot of time sitting in the sun, gather few real miles. Often, a taxi tire would get a second life as a tire on a discer or a seed drill, which is the best apples to apples comparison, because you could retrofit such a thing with those tubeless tires.


I think that, when internal failures have occurred, and specifically in the Bridgestone/Ford Explorer episode, it was due to a combination of age, relatively high speed operation, and relatively high ambient temperatures. In the Ford/Bridgestone episode, unusually low tyre pressures recommended by Ford, and sub-par tyre construction at one Bridgestone plant, were additional factors.

Although it has a rugged, outdoor lifestyle, I doubt your average seed drill will see much high speed operation on the freeway.

Discussed locally, with some references and reasonable civility, here:-

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2977566/1

Or, if you want to see some name-calling, here:-

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=5954

(Purely by coincidence, the name-calling starts when I come in, about halfway down. )

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
....Anyway, I've got an even more speculative fix for the external degradation. I treat them with sunflower oil......


I don't know much about sunflower oil, but petroleum oil gets absorbed by rubber and changes the rubber's properties in the wrong direction. I don't see why any vegetable oil wouldn't do the same.

Originally Posted By: Garak
......I've taken off plenty of tires off of agricultural equipment. The insides don't tend to suffer a lot, even though they're old tires, spending a lot of time sitting in the sun, gather few real miles......


Be careful here. The rubber on the inside is a usually a halobutyl which not only has good air retention properties, but also has different age deterioration properties than the rubber on the outside.

I know, I know. You're asking why don't they use that type of rubber everywhere in a tire? 1) because it is expensive, and 2) because you can't get the right properties out of that type of rubber.

Originally Posted By: Traction
....I have dismounted many tires and have seen plenty of moisture, up to a 1/4 cup. Usually someone with leaky beads inflating their tires every other day with wet air..........


This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim they found water inside a tire (other than the obvious). I'd like to get others who bust tires for a living to either confirm or deny this.

But I can see where someone might find water where the tires are loosing so much inflation pressure that they have to add air every day - and add that the air lines don't have adequate water extraction equipment. That I can see - and that I think we can exclude from the discussion.

Originally Posted By: Traction
.... Sure, some of the nitrogen benefits are overstated, but I've been using it for 10 yrs. now, and I have seen the benefits. Less bead seat corrosion and better pressure retention. Biggest problem I see is no one uses really dry air. A small compressor would only have dry air with a min. 30 gal. tank left for a few hours to cool and condense the air. Can't fill a tire with a running compressor without a refrigerated air dryer. Yes some moisture can permeate back into the tire in a small amount, but it takes longer for a wet tire to dry, and with oxygen you have bead seat corrosion sooner, then a leaky tire that needs more air and water pumped back in. All my nitrogen filled tires after months of setting will all be within 1/2 lb. of each other. I also put it in every customers car, no charge, because it it the right thing to do. Why is compressed air better???


I'm also struggling with a couple of things in this quote.

First is about bead seat corrosion. The beat seat is in contact with the bead, so how does it corrode? The wheel flange, yes. But that is on the outside and nitrogen inflation wouldn't help there.

Second is the issue of the water condensing in a compressor tank. Yes, if one uses a tankless compressor, that would have water condensing out in the tire.

But if there is a tank, the water condenses out in the tank. Yes, the heated air (due to the compression) would condense even more water as it cools in the tank, but the tank pressure is on the order of 100 psi, where the tire is around 30 psi. That's a significant difference. I don't think this is as much of an issue as being expressed.

And lastly, Yes, many air compressors aren't well maintained and have considerable water in the lines. But the same folks who would be using nitrogen to gain some benefits are also the ones who would make sure the air was properly purged - and the opposite would be true: The folks that don't care a lick about such benefits aren't going to care about getting water in their tires. I see this as more of a case of caring about the details, rather than a simple substitution.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Joe
Yes I bought a new 2014 Sierra the other day. Besides wasting time trying to push extended warranties, the 'financial person' was acting like their 'free' nitrogen fill was something special. Yes, I'll take it if it's free, but for a guy who checks pressure routinely, plus we already get 78% nitrogen, it's more a gimmick. I let her go on a bit about it, but my mind could hardly take more.

Is there anyone out there who would pay for a nitrogen fill? Maybe there's something I don't know, it's happened before.

Clearing the Air About Nitrogen Tire Inflation

About the only thing nitrogen accomplishes is marginally better pressure retention.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Ducked
....Anyway, I've got an even more speculative fix for the external degradation. I treat them with sunflower oil......


I don't know much about sunflower oil, but petroleum oil gets absorbed by rubber and changes the rubber's properties in the wrong direction. I don't see why any vegetable oil wouldn't do the same.


Can't rule it out, but veg oil is quite different stuff. Specifically, its unstable, so my initial optimistic model was that, applied sparingly, it would polymerise at or near the surface of the tyre in a protective layer.

The observed softening of my "crunchy" radiator hose suggests this might be simplistic.

I havn't seen any evidence of negative effects so far, and, since I do mostly short journeys and, as you can imagine, keep a pretty close eye on tyre condition, I'd hope to notice the tyre breaking up before catastrophic failure.

To be even more optimistic, if the effect were tyre softening, this MIGHT, in moderation, be a good thing on ageing tyres.

I should probably try and find the time for some crude "bench" testing, though.

 

[SHOZ]

On old oil encrusted hoses and gaskets I soak them in lacquer thinner until they are soft, then soak them in Rislone for a day. They come out great, pliable as new usually.

Too long in the thinner though and they start to fall apart. You can tell by the thinner turning black about how well it's going.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I think that, when internal failures have occurred, and specifically in the Bridgestone/Ford Explorer episode, it was due to a combination of age, relatively high speed operation, and relatively high ambient temperatures. In the Ford/Bridgestone episode, unusually low tyre pressures recommended by Ford, and sub-par tyre construction at one Bridgestone plant, were additional factors.

Although it has a rugged, outdoor lifestyle, I doubt your average seed drill will see much high speed operation on the freeway.

I don't think nitrogen would have prevented the Ford Explorer business. And certainly, the seed drill doesn't get any high speed operation, but the insides of a tire do last fairly long. The environmental concerns a tire faces are mostly on the outside, particularly with the sun.

Of course, temperature issues are different, but nitrogen isn't going to magically prevent a tire from facing temperature issues.