please recommend a poa low saps oil mb 229.51

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Quote:
SHC is synthesised hydro carbons which is PAO

Quote:
On German version bottle it says: Synthetic technology NOT Full synthetic.
So why would they market their oil for German market as Synthetic technology and on other markets as Full synthetic?
There is no doubt that oil contains synthetic base oils, but predominant base oil is still GroupIII.
They advertise Mobil1 0W40 same, SHC oil, and it is predominantly GroupIII oil.


Quote:
You have to take what's on the can with a pinch of salt sometimes as it's quite common to have oils listed as semi synthetic/synthetic technology indicating a mineral oil/synthetic blend and it's actually full synthetic in the can, Shell Helix AX7 AF is an example of this.

The Mobilube SHC 75w-90 transmission oil is PAO but as you can see contains the phrase SHC

when you look at Mobil msds's they list it like an ingredient list with the biggest first and PAO listed as synthetic base oil and group 3 synthetic as highly refined mineral oil

There are advantages to using group 3's over PAO so I've got no probs using them,PAO's don't have very good load carrying ability, less than a mineral oil I think, it's just got very good cold fluidity and high temp low deposit performance

If you read the blurb on this you'll see that Mobil mean synthetic hydrocarbon when they say SHC

http://www.mobilindustrial.com/ind/english/files/synthetic-lubricants-mobil-shc-800-series.pdf

"SHC synthetic technology" may just be a marketing term for a blend of PAO and group 3 synthetic which Mobil 1 0w40 now is and they've decided to roll that term out to all Mobil 1 products but with a synthetic base oil listing in the msds and -45'C pour point the Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 is PAO.

Let me try to understand this:
Mobil1 was selling few years ago Full Synthetic oils in Germany (advertised as full synthetic) and now they are selling it as SHC as marketing trick? And that happened when they moved from majority PAO stock. Interesting.
I am constantly saying, M1 ESP has inside synthetic base oils, but it is combination of GRIII and either PAO or Ester, probably Easter, considering pour point and flash point (+254c) as well as TAN (2.22) and extremely low NOACK.
But, predominant base stock is GRIII (whatever Mobil1 is using).
So Mobil1 is selling their oils as Full Synthetic in all other EU countries (ESP is made in Finland) but only in Germany they are using SHC marketing trick. Yeah right.
Do not get me wrong. I am not saying oil is bad, I am using it, but it is predominantly GRIII.
On other hand, Pentosin Super Pento III is predominantly PAO oil, but on paper not as good as Mobil1.


I think you may have misunderstood what I have said

SHC means Synthetic HydroCarbons which is PAO, it's what ExxonMobil mean when they say "SHC"

On the bottles in Germany it says "SHC synthetic technology" which sounds like a marketing term to me. If SHC meant synthetic hydrocracked then the term would be saying "synthetic hydrocracked synthetic hydrocracked" since synthetic technology means hydrocracked synthetic oil, it just would not make sense grammatically.

It would be similar to the Spielberg film "E.T the extra terrestrial" E.T. stands for extra terrestrial, so essentially the title of the film means "Extra Terrestrial, the extra terrestrial", silly.

Shell and Mobil have been trying to "globalise" their oil products for the past couple of years so I'm thinking that they've come up with the "SHC Synthetic Technology" term to put on all their premium Mobil 1 products rather than have Full Synthetic on one bottle and Synthetic Technology on another.

I've stocked 208 ltr barrels of Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 in the past which was confirmed by Mobil as PAO, as well as their Mobil Formula V 5w-30 which is sold as a different formulation but it's the same oil with the same specs as ESP just without so many approvals.

ExxonMobil are the biggest producers of PAO on earth so it makes sense for them to use it.

Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 is not a GIII/Ester blend


My 2 cents. Even the German beans use "HC" or "syn tech." when describing their non- syn oil.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Quote:
SHC is synthesised hydro carbons which is PAO

Quote:
On German version bottle it says: Synthetic technology NOT Full synthetic.
So why would they market their oil for German market as Synthetic technology and on other markets as Full synthetic?
There is no doubt that oil contains synthetic base oils, but predominant base oil is still GroupIII.
They advertise Mobil1 0W40 same, SHC oil, and it is predominantly GroupIII oil.


Quote:
You have to take what's on the can with a pinch of salt sometimes as it's quite common to have oils listed as semi synthetic/synthetic technology indicating a mineral oil/synthetic blend and it's actually full synthetic in the can, Shell Helix AX7 AF is an example of this.

The Mobilube SHC 75w-90 transmission oil is PAO but as you can see contains the phrase SHC

when you look at Mobil msds's they list it like an ingredient list with the biggest first and PAO listed as synthetic base oil and group 3 synthetic as highly refined mineral oil

There are advantages to using group 3's over PAO so I've got no probs using them,PAO's don't have very good load carrying ability, less than a mineral oil I think, it's just got very good cold fluidity and high temp low deposit performance

If you read the blurb on this you'll see that Mobil mean synthetic hydrocarbon when they say SHC

http://www.mobilindustrial.com/ind/english/files/synthetic-lubricants-mobil-shc-800-series.pdf

"SHC synthetic technology" may just be a marketing term for a blend of PAO and group 3 synthetic which Mobil 1 0w40 now is and they've decided to roll that term out to all Mobil 1 products but with a synthetic base oil listing in the msds and -45'C pour point the Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 is PAO.

Let me try to understand this:
Mobil1 was selling few years ago Full Synthetic oils in Germany (advertised as full synthetic) and now they are selling it as SHC as marketing trick? And that happened when they moved from majority PAO stock. Interesting.
I am constantly saying, M1 ESP has inside synthetic base oils, but it is combination of GRIII and either PAO or Ester, probably Easter, considering pour point and flash point (+254c) as well as TAN (2.22) and extremely low NOACK.
But, predominant base stock is GRIII (whatever Mobil1 is using).
So Mobil1 is selling their oils as Full Synthetic in all other EU countries (ESP is made in Finland) but only in Germany they are using SHC marketing trick. Yeah right.
Do not get me wrong. I am not saying oil is bad, I am using it, but it is predominantly GRIII.
On other hand, Pentosin Super Pento III is predominantly PAO oil, but on paper not as good as Mobil1.


I think you may have misunderstood what I have said

SHC means Synthetic HydroCarbons which is PAO, it's what ExxonMobil mean when they say "SHC"

On the bottles in Germany it says "SHC synthetic technology" which sounds like a marketing term to me. If SHC meant synthetic hydrocracked then the term would be saying "synthetic hydrocracked synthetic hydrocracked" since synthetic technology means hydrocracked synthetic oil, it just would not make sense grammatically.

It would be similar to the Spielberg film "E.T the extra terrestrial" E.T. stands for extra terrestrial, so essentially the title of the film means "Extra Terrestrial, the extra terrestrial", silly.

Shell and Mobil have been trying to "globalise" their oil products for the past couple of years so I'm thinking that they've come up with the "SHC Synthetic Technology" term to put on all their premium Mobil 1 products rather than have Full Synthetic on one bottle and Synthetic Technology on another.

I've stocked 208 ltr barrels of Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 in the past which was confirmed by Mobil as PAO, as well as their Mobil Formula V 5w-30 which is sold as a different formulation but it's the same oil with the same specs as ESP just without so many approvals.

ExxonMobil are the biggest producers of PAO on earth so it makes sense for them to use it.

Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 is not a GIII/Ester blend


Well, all I can say: good for you.
However, since I have my own set of eyes, and I am OK with reading, I know how to read PDS.
Most interesting argument that you have is: Mobil1 thinks it is better to advertise ONLY in Germany (that by the way, is the ONLY country that has laws that state that ONLY predominantly Gr IV and V can be labeled as Full Synthetic) SHC, while in rest of the world, which DOES NOT have those laws, is advertising as Full Synthetic!
Interesting, would like to meet the guy who runs M1 marketing.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting, would like to meet the guy who runs M1 marketing.

Have the German labeling laws jumped the shark, as it were? Has it gotten to the point that Mobil doesn't care? After all, most European vehicles call for certain specifications, with approval lists. The oil is either approved or it is not, and it doesn't matter whether it obtains that approval through a Group III, IV, or V base stock, or a mix thereof.

The labeling rules might have mattered in the days before the approval lists became so common, as in when API stuff was listed. A Group II SN/GF-5 oil likely won't be able to go the OCI length of a real synthetic with the same ratings (if such an animal existed), or even a Group III with such specifications (i.e. an A5/B5 oil). For North American applications, we can have a fairly wide range of products that can meet the required specification, from the most basic bulk 5w-30 to M1 EP 5w-30.

In Europe, being on the approval list is what really matters. I suspect there isn't a huge disparity in product quality between lubes on an approval list.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak

Interesting, would like to meet the guy who runs M1 marketing.

Quote:
Have the German labeling laws jumped the shark, as it were? Has it gotten to the point that Mobil doesn't care? After all, most European vehicles call for certain specifications, with approval lists. The oil is either approved or it is not, and it doesn't matter whether it obtains that approval through a Group III, IV, or V base stock, or a mix thereof.

The labeling rules might have mattered in the days before the approval lists became so common, as in when API stuff was listed. A Group II SN/GF-5 oil likely won't be able to go the OCI length of a real synthetic with the same ratings (if such an animal existed), or even a Group III with such specifications (i.e. an A5/B5 oil). For North American applications, we can have a fairly wide range of products that can meet the required specification, from the most basic bulk 5w-30 to M1 EP 5w-30.

In Europe, being on the approval list is what really matters. I suspect there isn't a huge disparity in product quality between lubes on an approval list.

That was not the point. I use it, and I still consider GrIV and GrV oils superior (there is a reason why ONLY full synthetic oils are used in jet turbines).
However, I use M1ESp, and my claim was that it is predominantly GrIII, but there is significant amount of Ester (look at the numbers, oil has really good numbers).
So, why would then Mobil1 advertise that oil as SHC ONLY in Germany, while in rest of the world is Full Synthetic?
Based on my UOA, it proved better then M1 0W40, probably due to higher content of synthetic based oils. TBN retention is much better, considering it starts only at 5.6.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
So, why would then Mobil1 advertise that oil as SHC ONLY in Germany, while in rest of the world is Full Synthetic?

That was my point, though. Are they labeling full synthetics as SHC in Germany, just to avoid having to relabel when there's a formulation change? If people are buying by specification, rather than marketing words, it might not matter.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting, would like to meet the guy who runs M1 marketing.

Have the German labeling laws jumped the shark, as it were? Has it gotten to the point that Mobil doesn't care? After all, most European vehicles call for certain specifications, with approval lists. The oil is either approved or it is not, and it doesn't matter whether it obtains that approval through a Group III, IV, or V base stock, or a mix thereof.

The labeling rules might have mattered in the days before the approval lists became so common, as in when API stuff was listed. A Group II SN/GF-5 oil likely won't be able to go the OCI length of a real synthetic with the same ratings (if such an animal existed), or even a Group III with such specifications (i.e. an A5/B5 oil). For North American applications, we can have a fairly wide range of products that can meet the required specification, from the most basic bulk 5w-30 to M1 EP 5w-30.

In Europe, being on the approval list is what really matters. I suspect there isn't a huge disparity in product quality between lubes on an approval list.


Jumped the shark? YES.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
So, why would then Mobil1 advertise that oil as SHC ONLY in Germany, while in rest of the world is Full Synthetic?

That was my point, though. Are they labeling full synthetics as SHC in Germany, just to avoid having to relabel when there's a formulation change? If people are buying by specification, rather than marketing words, it might not matter.

M1 ESP is excellent oil, but, based on the fact that they label M1 0W40 SHC (which is not full synthetic) I think there is not enough GrIv or V inside to be labeled as Full Synthetic.
That does not mean oil is not great. If you look at the numbers there is no way it is just GrIII, considering flash point and pour point, as well as TAN.

 

[tudorart]

Ok. I read the whole thread.
I studied this 5W30 and the rest of M1 line up before.
Here are my findings:
All M1 MSDS in Europe show both the PAO (68037-01-4) and gr III (64742-54-7) concentrations, HOWEVER, for this 5W30 ESP none is shown except the regular polymer (high VI high viscosity PAO) (147880-09-9) in 1-5% which is part of the add pack.

My conclusions were that it may only have GR III+ and V. Visom is of the past and only a precursor to GTL so my guess is GTL. GTL and Visom GrIII+ never shows up on their MSDS and neither the AN or other gr 5 esterex.


Also what this thread failed to realize is that after the scandal with german authorities sourrounding the 0W40 and the fact that PAO was less than 70% (they had to relabel it), Exxon or Mobil came up with "SHC Synthese Technology™" as a TRADE MARK so it is not related to the insides (as it used to be before it had the TM sign).

This was their way around it but even so, the TM'ed name was only permitted as SHC and not as Synthetic Hydro Carbon, by the german authorities.

Anyway if anyone needs PAO or gr III content on M1 oils let me know as they show up on my MSDS's. 0W40 Factory Fill 100, 0W-40 Turbo Diesel and 0W-40 New Life is 50-60% pao for example. 0W-40 ESP is simillar to 5W30 ESP...no pao, no petroleum hydrotreated...most likely GTL based.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
This was their way around it but even so, the TM'ed name was only permitted as SHC and not as Synthetic Hydro Carbon, by the german authorities.

That, too, was part of my point, and something I brought up repeatedly in the past. The German labeling laws had the effect of companies inventing new terminology.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Oilmilkshake
It is not clear to me.. I want a true synthetic for. My next oil change.

Total mc3 and ineo both meet the spec.

Thanksmike


Lets list all the "Untrue" or Fake synthetics and we will get there by process of elimination.

Major oil blenders would like to think their brand is not fake.

The theme of this thread has been martyred many times, its been beaten, whipped, dressed up with a crown of thorns, stripped naked, hung up for all to see, buried and raised from the dead, its sort of like Easter all over again.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
Anyway if anyone needs PAO or gr III content on M1 oils let me know as they show up on my MSDS's.

Yes. Can you look up M1 Formula M 5w-40 (not the ESP version)?

Also, how about the whole M1 EP lineup? What's the PAO content there?

 

[tudorart]

Sorry it seems the non ESP formula M and Extended Performance is not available on our side so there are no MSDS for them.
If it is anything like the formula M 5W-40 ESP version, then it seems not to have PAO except the polymer POLYOLEFIN POLYAMINE SUCCINIMIDE 1-5%.
It only shows Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic 30-40% so the remaining percentage must be something else between gr. III and IV.

Turbo Diesel Truck however seems to be having better stocks: 10%-20% pao and the rest not listed so again most likely better than gr III.

The highest PAO is in the 0W50 Racing - 60-70%.

Here's a link to a few downloads https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxnjLrqu5mkvLWFWVXVXT3Jiczg&usp=sharing

 

[riggaz]

Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w-30 is PAO based with mineral oil added as a diluent


Not that I don't trust this information given the VOA, but mind if I ask the source?

It was a Mobil rep that told me that.