VW's not all bad just abused...
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I love these threads, always filled with people looking for an opportunity to bash a specific brand, then hold up their own choices as the clearly superior option, all because they want to feel better about the decisions they've made in their own life.
I will only comment on the one and only VW I have ever owned.
It has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever purchased and requires even less regular maintenance than my Camry.
Do VWs have shortcomings? Yeah, sure... what make/model doesn't?
I will only comment on the one and only VW I have ever owned.
It has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever purchased and requires even less regular maintenance than my Camry.
Do VWs have shortcomings? Yeah, sure... what make/model doesn't?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I mean, I can't tell you how many websites are dedicated to specific issues with German cars. Every time I have something fail it is billed as a "known" problem with the car or engine.
Kind of like the specific websites dedicated to GM's AFM problems and their 4L60E sunshell failures? Those are just the first two that I can pull from recent memory, and I'm sure that there are some from Ford and Chrysler, too.
I won't go into defending any marque here, as I have several gripes with my A6 like the plastic thermostat housing that cracks and is hidden behind the entire front end of the engine and the fact that they cannot source engine gaskets that keep the oil in the engine. I can live with those issues as I replaced the thermo housing with the metal one at the first TB job and the gaskets are not all that hard to replace.
Every car brand has had its share of head-up-the-arse syndrome, so there really isn't a clear cut winner. I just research the car I am thinking of buying and find out the issues and see if it's worth my time and effort to deal with them versus how much I will enjoy driving the car.
And any brand will suffer if not taken care of appropriately. That's probably the one constant across all brands in the automotive world. But it sure is fun sometimes to hash it out with several like-minded people over the interwebs!
I mean, I can't tell you how many websites are dedicated to specific issues with German cars. Every time I have something fail it is billed as a "known" problem with the car or engine.
Kind of like the specific websites dedicated to GM's AFM problems and their 4L60E sunshell failures? Those are just the first two that I can pull from recent memory, and I'm sure that there are some from Ford and Chrysler, too.
I won't go into defending any marque here, as I have several gripes with my A6 like the plastic thermostat housing that cracks and is hidden behind the entire front end of the engine and the fact that they cannot source engine gaskets that keep the oil in the engine. I can live with those issues as I replaced the thermo housing with the metal one at the first TB job and the gaskets are not all that hard to replace.
Every car brand has had its share of head-up-the-arse syndrome, so there really isn't a clear cut winner. I just research the car I am thinking of buying and find out the issues and see if it's worth my time and effort to deal with them versus how much I will enjoy driving the car.
And any brand will suffer if not taken care of appropriately. That's probably the one constant across all brands in the automotive world. But it sure is fun sometimes to hash it out with several like-minded people over the interwebs!
I promise I won't restrict my bashing to a specific brand of German cars
I have owned a VW by the way, it was a 1979 Scirocco. I liked it but once again, compared to my Mazda 626 it was broken a lot more.
I do all my own maintenance and another thing I have noticed is that when comparing Japanese vs. German parts, the German one will nearly always look more substantial and better built than the equivalent Japanese component. But which one will fail first? Always the German one.
Out of my current set of cars ask me which one I would rather drive though.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
I love these threads, always filled with people looking for an opportunity to bash a specific brand, then hold up their own choices as the clearly superior option, all because they want to feel better about the decisions they've made in their own life.
I do all my own maintenance and another thing I have noticed is that when comparing Japanese vs. German parts, the German one will nearly always look more substantial and better built than the equivalent Japanese component. But which one will fail first? Always the German one.
Out of my current set of cars ask me which one I would rather drive though.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
I love these threads, always filled with people looking for an opportunity to bash a specific brand, then hold up their own choices as the clearly superior option, all because they want to feel better about the decisions they've made in their own life.
My 2004 Audi A4 was the biggest, most unreliable POS I'd ever owned. So glad I've since sold it, and cut my losses. [censored] I would have rather driven my old M3 over that A4, and the M3 was a nightmare itself. Also, owned a Jetta back in the day. Was also a POS, but I hadn't bought it new so i chocked that up to owner neglect. After owning the Audi, I've come to the conclusion that they are just junk after all.
ls1mike
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I wouldn't say my VW was a bad car, or even a POS. It just had more problems than the amount of love I had for it. It was put together well and was fairly easy to work on and maintain.
When it was correct it got excellent gas mileage. It was just I had less problems with my GM stuff and they were older with higher miles, but you have to look at each car and buy based of each ones common problems. They all have them. That genearation TDI had a bunch. The big thing about the Jetta that annoyed me was the neutral park saftey switch. It would leave you stranded when it broke.
My Regal went lots of miles with limited amounts of stuff done to it as compared to my VW, and had no electrical problems in the 150,000 miles I had it. Infact all my GM stuff has been electrically sound. My truck does burn through DRL and headlights. Not sure why.
When it was correct it got excellent gas mileage. It was just I had less problems with my GM stuff and they were older with higher miles, but you have to look at each car and buy based of each ones common problems. They all have them. That genearation TDI had a bunch. The big thing about the Jetta that annoyed me was the neutral park saftey switch. It would leave you stranded when it broke.
My Regal went lots of miles with limited amounts of stuff done to it as compared to my VW, and had no electrical problems in the 150,000 miles I had it. Infact all my GM stuff has been electrically sound. My truck does burn through DRL and headlights. Not sure why.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
My truck does burn through DRL and headlights. Not sure why.
I've noticed that on a lot of GM vehicles, particularly trucks. My friend has to replace the same tail light on his '05 Silverado every couple months. It is always the same side and the same bulb. I'm thinking it is a wiring issue since the other side is still original.
My truck does burn through DRL and headlights. Not sure why.
I've noticed that on a lot of GM vehicles, particularly trucks. My friend has to replace the same tail light on his '05 Silverado every couple months. It is always the same side and the same bulb. I'm thinking it is a wiring issue since the other side is still original.
But, isn't that what "reliable" means? If you have to treat every single thing you own like glass and it is not build with enough safety margin, yet your competitors do not need all these, it is by definition "not as reliable".
Call it what you want, it may be good enough it may be not, but I'd pick a car / brand / model that does not need to be babied like this.
Call it what you want, it may be good enough it may be not, but I'd pick a car / brand / model that does not need to be babied like this.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
I think everyone's definition of reliable is different. Little things don't bother me. I prefer having not to adjust valves, do timing belts or worry about large maintenance items like that.
I never saw anything special about a VW to want one over a domestic.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
I think everyone's definition of reliable is different. Little things don't bother me. I prefer having not to adjust valves, do timing belts or worry about large maintenance items like that.
Exactly, I actually prefer a belt to a convoluted timing chain setup which I can't fix myself.
I like the idea of replacing parts in that area before they fail which is why you always replace the waterpump on a timing belt setup IMO. At least if it is a quality replacement part not something from china.
I think everyone's definition of reliable is different. Little things don't bother me. I prefer having not to adjust valves, do timing belts or worry about large maintenance items like that.
Exactly, I actually prefer a belt to a convoluted timing chain setup which I can't fix myself.
I like the idea of replacing parts in that area before they fail which is why you always replace the waterpump on a timing belt setup IMO. At least if it is a quality replacement part not something from china.
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
I think everyone's definition of reliable is different. Little things don't bother me. I prefer having not to adjust valves, do timing belts or worry about large maintenance items like that.
Exactly, I actually prefer a belt to a convoluted timing chain setup which I can't fix myself.
I like the idea of replacing parts in that area before they fail which is why you always replace the waterpump on a timing belt setup IMO. At least if it is a quality replacement part not something from china.
Timing chains usually never have to be touched though, and last the lifetime of the vehicle. Timing belts need to be replaced at certain intervals, and while on some cars they are easy to access, others are a major pain.
I do agree with replacing wear parts in a certain area when they become easy to replace. For example, when I first bought my Jeep it overheated. The previous owner barely changed the oil, and never touched the cooling system. While replacing the radiator, I did the waterpump, hoses, fan clutch, and thermostat since they were easy to access with the radiator off.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
I think everyone's definition of reliable is different. Little things don't bother me. I prefer having not to adjust valves, do timing belts or worry about large maintenance items like that.
Exactly, I actually prefer a belt to a convoluted timing chain setup which I can't fix myself.
I like the idea of replacing parts in that area before they fail which is why you always replace the waterpump on a timing belt setup IMO. At least if it is a quality replacement part not something from china.
Timing chains usually never have to be touched though, and last the lifetime of the vehicle. Timing belts need to be replaced at certain intervals, and while on some cars they are easy to access, others are a major pain.
I do agree with replacing wear parts in a certain area when they become easy to replace. For example, when I first bought my Jeep it overheated. The previous owner barely changed the oil, and never touched the cooling system. While replacing the radiator, I did the waterpump, hoses, fan clutch, and thermostat since they were easy to access with the radiator off.
I think that there's maybe a cultural element at work here. I lived in Europe for 12 years, and VWs and Audis seemed to hold up well there. My guess is that they are serviced better and repaired better in Europe, and consequently hold up better. Conversely, I think these cars are serviced and repaired worse than American and Japanese cars here and suffer accordingly.
In my experience it's really hard to buy a bad car these days. Some are obviously better than others, but a Honda is no better than a Hyundai if both are neglected.
I've owned Honda's back in the 90's that required valve adjustments and timing belt changes. I've owned a VW Corrado in high school and college and it never saw anything other than oil changes and a clutch and I beat it to within an inch of it's life. I was broke and had no money for preventive maintenance.
What's maddening to me is seeing people who are driving a 15 year old Ford Taurus that runs. Not that it runs great, but it runs and they don't even do so much as wash it. Same goes for old Crown Vics and Grand Marquis. Seen some of those with over 300,000 miles on the and still going strong.
I'm a car nut, and I like my cars to be as close to perfect as they can be. I agonize over ever detail. I maintain them meticulously in excess of what the factory recommends. Conversely, of all the brands I've owned, I've only had two cars that were much trouble, and they were both bought used so I have no idea how the previous owner treated them.
I've owned Honda's back in the 90's that required valve adjustments and timing belt changes. I've owned a VW Corrado in high school and college and it never saw anything other than oil changes and a clutch and I beat it to within an inch of it's life. I was broke and had no money for preventive maintenance.
What's maddening to me is seeing people who are driving a 15 year old Ford Taurus that runs. Not that it runs great, but it runs and they don't even do so much as wash it. Same goes for old Crown Vics and Grand Marquis. Seen some of those with over 300,000 miles on the and still going strong.
I'm a car nut, and I like my cars to be as close to perfect as they can be. I agonize over ever detail. I maintain them meticulously in excess of what the factory recommends. Conversely, of all the brands I've owned, I've only had two cars that were much trouble, and they were both bought used so I have no idea how the previous owner treated them.
Why would it be a cultural thing for Americans to ignore German cars but adequately maintain Japanese ones? That doesn't make sense. If anything, Japanese cars are more mainstream and more likely to be mis-maintained.
Originally Posted By: ET16
I think that there's maybe a cultural element at work here. I lived in Europe for 12 years, and VWs and Audis seemed to hold up well there. My guess is that they are serviced better and repaired better in Europe, and consequently hold up better. Conversely, I think these cars are serviced and repaired worse than American and Japanese cars here and suffer accordingly.
Originally Posted By: ET16
I think that there's maybe a cultural element at work here. I lived in Europe for 12 years, and VWs and Audis seemed to hold up well there. My guess is that they are serviced better and repaired better in Europe, and consequently hold up better. Conversely, I think these cars are serviced and repaired worse than American and Japanese cars here and suffer accordingly.
Besides, it's not necessarily the "serviced" items that fail. Even if you change the oil, change the ATF, change the coolant, flush the brake fluid, keep everything clean and up to proper levels stuff still breaks faster than it does on most other cars. The Germans are over-engineers to an extreme, even on my old BMW. Do you know that on the front suspension and steering there are a total of 13 ball joints? That over-engineering does not result in better reliability.
Once again, by "servicing" you mean "replace proactively before it fails, which is before an equivalent component on a Japanese car would fail. If you let it fail you will likely be stranded somewhere".
Once again, by "servicing" you mean "replace proactively before it fails, which is before an equivalent component on a Japanese car would fail. If you let it fail you will likely be stranded somewhere".
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why would it be a cultural thing for Americans to ignore German cars but adequately maintain Japanese ones? That doesn't make sense. If anything, Japanese cars are more mainstream and more likely to be mis-maintained.
Originally Posted By: ET16
I think that there's maybe a cultural element at work here. I lived in Europe for 12 years, and VWs and Audis seemed to hold up well there. My guess is that they are serviced better and repaired better in Europe, and consequently hold up better. Conversely, I think these cars are serviced and repaired worse than American and Japanese cars here and suffer accordingly.
Because they're more common.
Why would it be a cultural thing for Americans to ignore German cars but adequately maintain Japanese ones? That doesn't make sense. If anything, Japanese cars are more mainstream and more likely to be mis-maintained.
Originally Posted By: ET16
I think that there's maybe a cultural element at work here. I lived in Europe for 12 years, and VWs and Audis seemed to hold up well there. My guess is that they are serviced better and repaired better in Europe, and consequently hold up better. Conversely, I think these cars are serviced and repaired worse than American and Japanese cars here and suffer accordingly.
Because they're more common.
Where does Europe get all their VWs? Some factories seem to produce better cars than others. In the USA, most MKIV Jettas came from Mexico, and the B5/B5.5 Passat usually came from Germany, and I would encounter a disproportionate number of Jettas needing repair than Passats.
However, this might also be related to maintenance. Do people who buy a less expensive car treat it with less car than those with a more expensive car?
However, this might also be related to maintenance. Do people who buy a less expensive car treat it with less car than those with a more expensive car?
Originally Posted By: Mykl
I love these threads, always filled with people looking for an opportunity to bash a specific brand, then hold up their own choices as the clearly superior option, all because they want to feel better about the decisions they've made in their own life.
I will only comment on the one and only VW I have ever owned.
It has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever purchased and requires even less regular maintenance than my Camry.
Do VWs have shortcomings? Yeah, sure... what make/model doesn't?
I say you hit the hammer right on the nail.
To each, their own. Despite having owned quite a few, and this is strictly opinion based, I've never been a fan of Japanese cars and given the option, I'd take something like a Passat over a Camry or an Accord. That said, I'll take a B6 over a B7 any day of the week and I'd kill for an R36.
I love these threads, always filled with people looking for an opportunity to bash a specific brand, then hold up their own choices as the clearly superior option, all because they want to feel better about the decisions they've made in their own life.
I will only comment on the one and only VW I have ever owned.
It has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever purchased and requires even less regular maintenance than my Camry.
Do VWs have shortcomings? Yeah, sure... what make/model doesn't?
I say you hit the hammer right on the nail.
To each, their own. Despite having owned quite a few, and this is strictly opinion based, I've never been a fan of Japanese cars and given the option, I'd take something like a Passat over a Camry or an Accord. That said, I'll take a B6 over a B7 any day of the week and I'd kill for an R36.
Another VW hate thread? The more things change, the more . . .
We've had numerous VWs over the years. All but one have been relatively solid. I can't blame the one stinker as it was abused before we got it.
We've had plenty of domestics and Japanese too. Real, made in Japan, Japanese models. The VWs have been in the middle with us for reliability, and near the top for durability. At their price point, they've been fine overall. Their strength is on the road. Drivers just wanting a reliable transportation appliance can do just as well or better with a Korean or mainstream Japanese. The best Japanese are still pretty bulletproof, but as exciting to drive as a washing machine.
With a VAG, you'll know right away if you have a bad one. If you do, dump it before the warranty runs, preferably immediately. Otherwise, they generally hold up fine if correctly maintained from day one.
And therein is the problem with them.
The worst thing for a VW here in the US is the DEALER. Many do bad work, and break three things on every visit. We've had tow-backs after regular maintenance because they overfilled with incorrect fluids. I'm much more comfortable with most other makes' for dealer service. And that's where every VW starts its life of service -- at the dealer.
They also require more special tools than their competitors at price point. Indy shops and DIY either hack them with workarounds, or ignore some job steps, which creates more problems.
Fwiw, my body shop also prefers them over most Asian makes, as a VW is better designed to be reassembled.
We've had numerous VWs over the years. All but one have been relatively solid. I can't blame the one stinker as it was abused before we got it.
We've had plenty of domestics and Japanese too. Real, made in Japan, Japanese models. The VWs have been in the middle with us for reliability, and near the top for durability. At their price point, they've been fine overall. Their strength is on the road. Drivers just wanting a reliable transportation appliance can do just as well or better with a Korean or mainstream Japanese. The best Japanese are still pretty bulletproof, but as exciting to drive as a washing machine.
With a VAG, you'll know right away if you have a bad one. If you do, dump it before the warranty runs, preferably immediately. Otherwise, they generally hold up fine if correctly maintained from day one.
And therein is the problem with them.
The worst thing for a VW here in the US is the DEALER. Many do bad work, and break three things on every visit. We've had tow-backs after regular maintenance because they overfilled with incorrect fluids. I'm much more comfortable with most other makes' for dealer service. And that's where every VW starts its life of service -- at the dealer.
They also require more special tools than their competitors at price point. Indy shops and DIY either hack them with workarounds, or ignore some job steps, which creates more problems.
Fwiw, my body shop also prefers them over most Asian makes, as a VW is better designed to be reassembled.
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