2 questions: Napa Synthetic and BMW X5

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Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
Plus, if they require (not suggest but actually require) LL-01, I suspect there is a Magnuson-Moss issue.

There isn't. There would only be an MM issue if the only available LL-01 oil was sold solely by BMW. But that's not the case. BMW does not require you to use their oil. They just require any oil meeting a certain performance spec (LL-01), and there are many such oils readily available. Most car companies have their own performance specs nowadays - take dexos1 for example. None of that causes an issue with Magnusson-Moss.

By the way, here's the official BMW TIS oil spec chart by engine type. Your engine is N62...

BMW_oil_type_by_engine_5_2009.png



Anyway, as I wrote initially, Napa Syn will probably be OK; however, the difference in performance between API SN and LL-01 is significant:

LL01_vs_SN.png
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
LL-01 applies to post-'02 BMW's so it looks like this operating fluids document is on point

My point was that if the PDF document mentioned earlier was truly dated March 2008, then why didn't it mention LL-01 spec? It just seems odd as the LL-98/LL-01/LL-04 are global specs and have been around for a while.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
LL-01 applies to post-'02 BMW's so it looks like this operating fluids document is on point

My point was that if the PDF document mentioned earlier was truly dated March 2008, then why didn't it mention LL-01 spec? It just seems odd as the LL-98/LL-01/LL-04 are global specs and have been around for a while.


no clue why they didn't. [censored] lawyers!
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
[PDF]BMW Operating Fluids - Complete.pdf - Bimmerboard.com
www.bimmerboard.com/.../Operating%20Fluids%20-%20Complete.pdf
These operating fluids specifications describe the standards which are ... BMW of North America has also approved various fluids for use which are not available ...

and I have NO intention of trying to run the BMW LL-01 spec. sorry, i have never gone past 8,000 miles and even that scared me. I keep the changes at under 7,000 max


Page 10:

Quote:
6.0 Engine Oil Additives

The use of engine oil additives is not recommended and not necessary on BMW engines. Instead, it is mandatory to use
BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil in 1999 model year and later BMW models and recommended to use either BMW
High Performance Synthetic Oil, BMW High Performance Mineral Oil or one of today’s highly advanced brand name
lubricating oils conforming to API classification SH or higher in 1998 and earlier BMW models.


Page 9:

Quote:
4.0 Engine Oil Change Intervals

With the introduction of the 1999 Model Year vehicles BMW has introduced an extended oil change interval of
approximately 15,000 miles (depending on engine operating conditions) on most models.
To coincide with the increased oil change interval, BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles (except E36 318ti, 323is/iC, 328is/iC, M3, M Roadster and M Coupe
models) whenever a service is necessary to avoid engine damage.
Note: Only if it is necessary to top up the engine oil between oil changes is it permissible to use synthetic low viscosity
engine oils which conform to the API classification SJ or higher.


The conventional and basic API spec oils are only for older BMW vehicles. The document doesn't read well (which is typical of BMW's documentation unfortunately) but basically they are not telling you to run API SN 5w-30 in your X5. They are telling you to run BMW Synthetic 5w-30, which has a much higher HTHS than the oil you are considering and has passed significantly more stringent testing. They are not even in the same ballpark.

Basically, if it is 1999 or newer, run an oil that is LL-01 approved, even if you have no intention of running the oil as per the OLM. There is more to the BMW LL-01 specification (as QP has demonstrated) than how long the oil will stay good for and you risk potential damage to the engine by not adhering to an oil that meets the performance requirements put forth by the manufacturer.

This is a big reason the VW sludge debacle happened. People thought they could run 5w-30 because that's what the cars called for. But they didn't, they called for a SPECIFIC 5w-30, or an oil that carried the same Euro approvals, and a spec that also included 0w-30, 5w-40 and 0w-40 lubricants. ANY of the Euro performance requirement specs are VASTLY more stringent than anything the API has out there, so utilizing a lubricant that doesn't meet them is a huge gamble and not one worth taking IMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
That Purolator Classic is not gonna make it to 6,000 miles.


Huh?

Are you talking about recent quality issues, or are you purposefully misreading Purolator's silly 3K mileage statement, which also says the filter is good out to the manufacturer's recommended OCI?

I might buy the first argument, but maintain that you're more likely to get a good one then a bad one.
 
"BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles "

that kids is called Magnuson-Moss. If they mandate it, esp for initial service, they have to pay for it. I think you skipped a prior paragraph where they expressly indicate (with an asterik) that synthetic or mineral based oils are accpetable.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
LL-01 applies to post-'02 BMW's so it looks like this operating fluids document is on point

My point was that if the PDF document mentioned earlier was truly dated March 2008, then why didn't it mention LL-01 spec? It just seems odd as the LL-98/LL-01/LL-04 are global specs and have been around for a while.


no clue why they didn't. [censored] lawyers!

My suspicion is that it's a fairly old content. Someone just updated the heading on it to read "March 2008."

Notice the latest API spec they mention is API SJ. Yet, by 2001, API SL was already launched. They also refer to API SA, SB as "current service ratings" while in fact these are and have been obsolete for quite some time.

Anyway, the whole API spec discussion is irrelevant when it comes to modern Euro engines that rely on oil meeting much more stringent specifications, with ACEA specs being the baseline. But it just gives some indication as to the date of the actual content in this document. And for that reason, I would not rely on it at all. A lot has changed since.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
"BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles "

that kids is called Magnuson-Moss. If they mandate it, esp for initial service, they have to pay for it.

And they do pay for it for the initial service since the maintenance is included on these cars during the warranty period.

Anyway, as I was saying, this is an old document that has long been superceded. We have discussed the latest BMW oil requirements in this thread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...end#Post3143850

Yet, BMWNA's treatment of this subject leaves a lot to be desired. As a matter of fact, they pulled that whole oil page off their site completely now. But the second link to the PDF is still active. Notice they are more careful there saying that "BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended" but not required. This is done specifically to not violate Magnusson-Moss, IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
"BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles "

that kids is called Magnuson-Moss. If they mandate it, esp for initial service, they have to pay for it. I think you skipped a prior paragraph where they expressly indicate (with an asterik) that synthetic or mineral based oils are accpetable.


No, that's why BMW's verbiage sucks. The previous paragraph is for engines prior to 1999.

For 1999 and newer engines, with the noted exceptions, you must use an engine oil meeting BMW LL-01 or BMW Genuine High Performance Synthetic Oil. As noted, due to MM, they cannot require you to use their oil (unless this is a dealer paper and the oil is provided free of charge to the consumer during the warranty period in which case they CAN require you to use it if they are providing it for free) but they CAN require you to use an approved lubricant, which, in this case, is one meeting LL-01.

They also make a number of references to TIS, and if you look up your vehicle in TIS they do not say "run Fred Penner's SAE 5w-30 SM or newer" for your vehicle, it states BMW Synthetic oil or equivalent meeting LL-01.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
That Purolator Classic is not gonna make it to 6,000 miles.


ok - how far you think it is gonna go? I currently have an M1 filter in.


If the engine is clean inside, a Purolator Classic will make it to 6K easily.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
For 1999 and newer engines, with the noted exceptions, you must use an engine oil meeting BMW LL-01 or BMW Genuine High Performance Synthetic Oil. As noted, due to MM, they cannot require you to use their oil (unless this is a dealer paper and the oil is provided free of charge to the consumer during the warranty period in which case they CAN require you to use it if they are providing it for free) but they CAN require you to use an approved lubricant, which, in this case, is one meeting LL-01.

They also make a number of references to TIS, and if you look up your vehicle in TIS they do not say "run Fred Penner's SAE 5w-30 SM or newer" for your vehicle, it states BMW Synthetic oil or equivalent meeting LL-01.



Not to put too fine a spin on this, but . . . there is later "advice" (actually it is technical info for the dealers) that is as of October 2010 (here is the July 2010)http://www.bmw-planet.com/lib/Operating%20Fluids%20-%20Engine.pdf) and it states very clearly that

3.0 Gasoline Engine Oil Requirements and Specifications
Approved Engine Oils
— For BMW gasoline engines with two valves per cylinder, all reputable multiple grade engine oils* which meet or exceed
the API classification of SH. (Combination with diesel oil specifications CD or CE quality classifications are also permitted,
e.g. SH/CE etc.)
For BMW gasoline engines with four valves per cylinder, only reputable multiple grade engine oils* which meet or exceed
the API classification of SH. (Combination with diesel oil specifications CD or CE quality classifications are also permitted,
e.g. SH/CE etc.)
— For BMW turbocharged diesel engines, all reputable multiple grade engine oils* which meet or exceed the API
classification CD/CE.
*Engine oil may be mineral or synthetic based.

so frankly, any oil meeting "spec" can be used. The "mandatory" language appears laer for M engines. Moreover, in Section 5, it discusses the increased OC interval of 15,000 and says"

To coincide with the increased oil change interval, BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles (except E36 318ti, 323is/iC, 328is/iC, M3, M Roadster and M Coupe
models) whenever a service is necessary to avoid engine damage."

As such, it appears only if you plan on trying to extend OC is BMW's oil or an LL-01 oil "required". I feel bad for their lawyers. This would be the first thing I would prouce in litigation if my engine failed and BMW denied a claim.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
Not to put too fine a spin on this, but . . . there is later "advice" (actually it is technical info for the dealers) that is as of October 2010 (here is the July 2010)http://www.bmw-planet.com/lib/Operating%20Fluids%20-%20Engine.pdf)

And the content of this Section 3.0 appears to be exactly the same as in the previous documents. All that's different is a more recent date on the page header. The content must have been written decades ago.

API SH that they reference multiple times is an obsolete spec. If someone with a modern BMW is in fact still adhering to the contents of this document, I truly feel sorry for them.
 
I agree QP that the date has changed, but . . . this appears to be BMW technical advice to their dealers (given the verb/tense usage in the document). Hence, it almost seems like they are mandating the BMW oil to keep their markup high vs spec'ing a cheaper alternative
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
I agree QP that the date has changed, but . . . this appears to be BMW technical advice to their dealers (given the verb/tense usage in the document). Hence, it almost seems like they are mandating the BMW oil to keep their markup high vs spec'ing a cheaper alternative


No, if it is a dealer document (which it seems to be) it is very clear. The section you keep quoting pertains to cars prior to 1999 and spells out very specific requirements for 1999 and later cars. The fact that they tell them to run the BMW synthetic (and not an LL-01 oil) reinforces that, as to the consumer, that's a violation of MM, to a dealer, that's advice consistent to what would be handed down.

There is no "consumer equivalent" to this document. Any document released for consumer consumption has always recommended BMW oil or an equivalent meeting LL-01, LL-04....etc.

When these documents get into the public's hands, the verbiage, not designed for your average Joe to be reading, results in threads like this where people think they can run whatever the heck they want in their cars. Which completely contradicts the statements clearly made in the owner's manual, in TIS, and on BMW's website.

Heck, to average Joe, the document contradicts itself! The part you just quoted above (which, as QP noted, is the same as in the previous document) states:

Quote:
To coincide with the increased oil change interval, BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles (except E36 318ti, 323is/iC, 328is/iC, M3, M Roadster and M Coupe
models) whenever a service is necessary to avoid engine damage.


That is not interpretive wording, it clearly uses the word MUST.

They give you an OPTION for earlier cars:

Quote:
BMW High Performance Synthetic Engine Oil may also be used on Model Year 1999 E36 (3-Series and M models)
as well has Model Year 1998 and earlier BMW models.


Which is consistent with the earlier API SH recommendation and the table shown in the same document with multiple viscosities for various temperatures depicted.

This is also consistent with my use of TIS. If I look up an older BMW, I get the variety recommendation. If I look up a 1999 or newer BMW, I get a very specific recommendation for LL-98, LL-01, LL-04....etc. On the later cars they always recommend BMW Genuine Synthetic Engine Oil, but they require you to use an oil meeting the relevant spec.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler

As such, it appears only if you plan on trying to extend OC is BMW's oil or an LL-01 oil "required". I feel bad for their lawyers. This would be the first thing I would prouce in litigation if my engine failed and BMW denied a claim.


If your engine blew up and you decided to lawyer up, you'd be in obvious contradiction of what your owners manual clearly states. Saying that you are basing it on an internal BMW document designed for dealers wouldn't help your case, that was not for your eyes and they would argue (and rightly so) that you've misinterpreted it because the same document clearly states that the dealer must use BMW Synthetic oil in all 1999 and later cars:

Originally Posted By: BMW
With the introduction of the 1999 Model Year vehicles BMW has introduced an extended oil change interval of
approximately 15,000 miles (depending on engine operating conditions) on most models.

To coincide with the increased oil change interval, BMW has also introduced “BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil”
which must be used on all 1999 Model Year vehicles (except E36 318ti, 323is/iC, 328is/iC, M3, M Roadster and M Coupe
models) whenever a service is necessary to avoid engine damage.


That does not state that you only have to run the BMW oil when extending OCI's. It states that BMW extended OCI's, and to go along with that, they now REQUIRE you (in this case the dealer) to use BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil in these vehicles. The consumer version of that, found in your owners manual, reads that they require you to use BMW oil or an equivalent oil carrying LL-01.

This is a case of looking for a reason to run something not consistent with the requirements of the manufacturer and then repeatedly looking for a way to justify it.

This document; these documents do not indicate that you can run NAPA 5w-30 in an X5. And if the vehicle were under warranty, you would be violating the terms of that warranty and BMW has grounds to deny any claims pertaining to engine failure if they can attribute it to the use out of the out-of-spec lubricant.

The document reads in a very progressive fashion outlining BMW's basic requirements for lubricants starting with the specs that are obviously for older vehicles and then going into speaking about the 1999 and newer OLM equipped vehicles and the requirements for them. Read in that manner, it makes sense. Read in the fashion in which you are trying to read it, it becomes contradictory. Hence, as I noted earlier, it was not designed to be read by the consumer.

Heck, even TIS isn't designed to be read by the consumer but it at least is more specific than this.
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
I agree QP that the date has changed, but . . . this appears to be BMW technical advice to their dealers (given the verb/tense usage in the document). Hence, it almost seems like they are mandating the BMW oil to keep their markup high vs spec'ing a cheaper alternative


No, to a dealer it means in old BMW's use oil consistent with the chart, OR BMW synthetic oil, you can give the consumer both options:

Originally Posted By: BMW
BMW mineral-based High Performance engine oil is also offered for model year 1998 and earlier BMW models. However, for reliable engine performance in all temperature ranges mineral-based engine oil viscosity must be matched to the
temperature range at which the vehicle will be operated. See Engine Oil Temperature/Viscosity Table below.


And in 1999 and newer BMW's the dealer must use BMW Synthetic oil with the exception being the M cars that spec TWS.
 
from pg. 3 of the 2008 BMW X5 Service and Warranty Information book, and I quote:

All 2008 model year X5 vehicles are factoryfilled
with BMW High Performance Synthetic
oils. At the time of the printing of this booklet,
the following oils are strongly recommended
and approved by BMW:
BMW High Performance 5W-30 Synthetic Oil
(BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)
Mobil 1 5W-30
Mobil 1 5W-40
BMW is evaluating various synthetic oils for
inclusion in our list of recommended engine oils.

continued on pg. 4

BMW recommends that you check your engine
oil level whenever you add fuel to your vehicle. If
you need to add oil between oil changes and
are unable to obtain BMW High Performance
Synthetic Oil, Mobil 1 or another special oil on
the list, use a synthetic oil with an API rating of
SH or higher.

It is not a "Dealer only" booklet - the warranty book specifies it. In fact, M1 ow40 is not on the list list . . . .
 
Originally Posted By: DirkDiggler
from pg. 3 of the 2008 BMW X5 Service and Warranty Information book, and I quote:

All 2008 model year X5 vehicles are factoryfilled
with BMW High Performance Synthetic
oils. At the time of the printing of this booklet,
the following oils are strongly recommended
and approved by BMW:
BMW High Performance 5W-30 Synthetic Oil
(BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)
Mobil 1 5W-30
Mobil 1 5W-40
BMW is evaluating various synthetic oils for
inclusion in our list of recommended engine oils.

continued on pg. 4

BMW recommends that you check your engine
oil level whenever you add fuel to your vehicle. If
you need to add oil between oil changes and
are unable to obtain BMW High Performance
Synthetic Oil, Mobil 1 or another special oil on
the list, use a synthetic oil with an API rating of
SH or higher.

It is not a "Dealer only" booklet - the warranty book specifies it. In fact, M1 ow40 is not on the list list . . . .


The owners manual is way worse than mine, LOL!!
grin.gif


http://www.irvinebmw.com/usr/theme/image/owners_manuals/2008/x5/2008_X5_Owners_Manual.pdf

Originally Posted By: BMW

Approved engine oils

The quality of the engine oil selected has critical significance for the operation and service life of an engine. BMW continuously approves specific oils after confirming their suitability for use in its vehicles with extensive testing.

- Do not use oil additives, as these may result in engine damage

Only use approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil.
If BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is unavailable, you can add small quantities of other synthetic oils between changes. Only use oils of the specification API SM or higher.

Your BMW Sports Activity Vehicle Center will be happy to answer detailed questions on BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil or approved synthetic oils.

You can also call BMW of North America at 1-800-831-1117 or visit the website at www.bmwusa.com to obtain this information.

Viscosity grades

Viscosity is a measure of an oil's flow rating and is specified in SAE grades.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

- Approved oils belong to the SAE grades 5w-40 and 5w-30.

These oils can be used for driving at all outside temperatures.

BMW recommends Castrol.


Of note is the fact that M1 0w-40 probably didn't exist as an approved lubricant at the time of these publications
smile.gif
The predecessor was probably a 5w-40.

There are two other Mobil Euro oils right now, M1 ESP 5w-30, which has the LL-04 rating and M1 ESP Formula M 5w-40, which doesn't carry a BMW approval.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

The owners manual is way worse than mine, LOL!!
grin.gif


http://www.irvinebmw.com/usr/theme/image/owners_manuals/2008/x5/2008_X5_Owners_Manual.pdf

Originally Posted By: BMW

Approved engine oils

The quality of the engine oil selected has critical significance for the operation and service life of an engine. BMW continuously approves specific oils after confirming their suitability for use in its vehicles with extensive testing.

- Do not use oil additives, as these may result in engine damage

Only use approved BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil.
If BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is unavailable, you can add small quantities of other synthetic oils between changes. Only use oils of the specification API SM or higher.

Your BMW Sports Activity Vehicle Center will be happy to answer detailed questions on BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil or approved synthetic oils.

You can also call BMW of North America at 1-800-831-1117 or visit the website at www.bmwusa.com to obtain this information.

Viscosity grades

Viscosity is a measure of an oil's flow rating and is specified in SAE grades.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

- Approved oils belong to the SAE grades 5w-40 and 5w-30.

These oils can be used for driving at all outside temperatures.

BMW recommends Castrol.


Of note is the fact that M1 0w-40 probably didn't exist as an approved lubricant at the time of these publications
smile.gif
The predecessor was probably a 5w-40.

There are two other Mobil Euro oils right now, M1 ESP 5w-30, which has the LL-04 rating and M1 ESP Formula M 5w-40, which doesn't carry a BMW approval.


that's my point. If BMW suddenly upped the standards, well, where is my notice as an owner? Where is my new owner's page update? [censored], with everything happening at GM now (I used to work in the product lit group), then I guess I have a class action for BMW's failure to make me aware of new standards and the change in maintenance requirements. Of course, this is a [censored] argument, but it proves that the BMW LL-01 standard (which existed well before 2008), envisioned other oils that were ok then but all of a sudden they are not acceptable or is it because the oil manufacturer didn't want to pay the license fee? Does that mean other oils are ok? Well, as BMW states, they suggest those 3 oils. . . . but it is only a suggestion. :)
 
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