wemay
Site Donor 2023
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
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Base Stocks vs Additives Package
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No all have to be good quality.
eddie
eddie
Group iii+/iv have poor lubricity and dispersancy without a proper DP and co-solvents. ELF has found in studies that a multiple group blend with tailored multiple cuts and diversity provide better overall lubrication of all involved mechanisms. ELF white paper is online to read.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Synthetic will still protect better in high heat, and freezing conditions.
Maybe. "Synthetic" for motor oil is a marketing term, not a technical term. There are various quality (price) Group-III base oils as well as various quality (price) additive packages. The cheapest G-III base oil plus the cheapest add pack won't do much compared to a top quality Group-II+ conventional base oil and a top add pack.
Synthetic will still protect better in high heat, and freezing conditions.
Maybe. "Synthetic" for motor oil is a marketing term, not a technical term. There are various quality (price) Group-III base oils as well as various quality (price) additive packages. The cheapest G-III base oil plus the cheapest add pack won't do much compared to a top quality Group-II+ conventional base oil and a top add pack.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
So for instance,
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: wemay
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: wemay
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
If these were your choices:
Quaker State Green Bottle
Quaker State Synthetic Blend
Super Tech Synthetic
Napa Synthetic
Originally Posted By: wemay
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
If these were your choices:
Quaker State Green Bottle
Quaker State Synthetic Blend
Super Tech Synthetic
Napa Synthetic
Originally Posted By: wemay
So for instance,
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
Either would probably do well in that application for a 3.5K Mile OCI. I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
**Just saw your last question. Probably stick with Napa SYN its a good oil and then you don't have to go to walmart. (I stay away whenever I can)
So for instance,
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
Either would probably do well in that application for a 3.5K Mile OCI. I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
**Just saw your last question. Probably stick with Napa SYN its a good oil and then you don't have to go to walmart. (I stay away whenever I can)
Last edited:
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: wemay
So for instance,
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
Either would probably do well in that application for a 3.5K Mile OCI. I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
LOL... Understood and point well taken. Sorry for my OCD.
Originally Posted By: wemay
So for instance,
In an application like the Hyundai below (signature), 50/50 city/hwy, with the given OCI, would you choose Quaker State Synthetic Blend or Super Tech Synthetic?
Quaker State Synthitic Blend is new to me and the Walmart's in my area.
Either would probably do well in that application for a 3.5K Mile OCI. I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
LOL... Understood and point well taken. Sorry for my OCD.
Depends on the application. For a NA engine, a lesser basestock with a good additive package should be fine for most users. For a high strung NA engine or anything using forced induction, the physical characteristics of the base stock matter more. The worlds best add pack won't do any good with a base stock that isn't up to par.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
The worlds best add pack won't do any good with a base stock that isn't up to par.
I only partially agree. I've seen some nice thing done with additives to augment deficiencies in the base stock. The main problem with this approach is that it is often much cheaper in the long run to start with a good base then have to help it along with extra additive compounds.
The worlds best add pack won't do any good with a base stock that isn't up to par.
I only partially agree. I've seen some nice thing done with additives to augment deficiencies in the base stock. The main problem with this approach is that it is often much cheaper in the long run to start with a good base then have to help it along with extra additive compounds.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: wemay
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
Well stated summary and should be a sticky!
Originally Posted By: wemay
In today's SM/SN mkt, does one become more important as far as protection than the other? Conventional and Synthetics.
It really depends on what you mean by "protection". Formulators today start with high quality base oils and then work with them to pair additive combinations that will achieve the performance needs of the finished fluid.
If protection means minimal bearing or valve train wear then the answer is both because the benefits of high VI and oxidation resistance will help maintain hydrodynamic in the bearings while the additives will handle protection in boundary conditions.
In terms of performance there are plenty of reasons to shoot for high VI thin oil with extra boundary protection as has been discussed multiple times on the site.
Base oil by its self (Especially Gr II/III/IV) doesn't do a good job of protecting engine components. Neither would an oil which is 85% additives. Starting with a strong base and using highly effective additive combinations to produce a high performance lubricant is the role of any formulator. If I had to pick one over the other, I would choose a better additive package over base oil. But I would want to know more about the way the package was put together - not just the basic information you can glean from a VOA. This info just isn't available to the general public.
Well stated summary and should be a sticky!
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
So does this mean that when the oil companies do testing that shows in area x their oil was y% better than oil z, these are marginal differences?
With some engines, over hundreds of thousands of miles, wouldn't some performance differences matter eg top tier fuel matters for some engines over time because of more additives.
I don't like making specific brand recommendations because if you have access to Walmart you also have access to a wide selection of oil brands at great prices. I would probably pick which ever one had the nicer looking bottle (because I'm shallow like that)
So does this mean that when the oil companies do testing that shows in area x their oil was y% better than oil z, these are marginal differences?
With some engines, over hundreds of thousands of miles, wouldn't some performance differences matter eg top tier fuel matters for some engines over time because of more additives.
When it comes to "testing" by the oil companies the marketing department often puts a spin on it to make it seem better. Even if we were given access to the sequence test results there is always a way to make it seem like Oil A is better than Oil B.
For example:
"mine is more clean"
"mine has stronger film strength"
"mine has special additive technology"
"mine uses only the best synthetic base"
etc. etc.
This is how I chose oil:
-1- Start with OEM recommendations
-2- Pick my desired maintenance program (OCI length, DIY/DIFM etc)
-3- Do a couple of UOA's to determine a baseline trend
-4- Pick my candidate oils based on price, availability and packaging (like I said - I'm shallow like that)
-5- Monitor my UOA trend to make sure I can achieve my maintenance goals with my selection (lucky for me I have access to really good cheap analysis)
-6- Adjust accordingly (this could mean trying a different oil based on viscosity performance or UOA results,or adjusting the OCI, it could also mean experimenting with blends or filters or additives etc.)
Everyone's engine will respond differently based on a wide range of conditions - what works well for someone in Canada might not make sense for someone in Australia. This is true even when you have the exact same engine and use the exact same oil. That's why having a choice of oils is good, because you can find the one that meets your needs for your engine in your conditions and driving habits.
For example:
"mine is more clean"
"mine has stronger film strength"
"mine has special additive technology"
"mine uses only the best synthetic base"
etc. etc.
This is how I chose oil:
-1- Start with OEM recommendations
-2- Pick my desired maintenance program (OCI length, DIY/DIFM etc)
-3- Do a couple of UOA's to determine a baseline trend
-4- Pick my candidate oils based on price, availability and packaging (like I said - I'm shallow like that)
-5- Monitor my UOA trend to make sure I can achieve my maintenance goals with my selection (lucky for me I have access to really good cheap analysis)
-6- Adjust accordingly (this could mean trying a different oil based on viscosity performance or UOA results,or adjusting the OCI, it could also mean experimenting with blends or filters or additives etc.)
Everyone's engine will respond differently based on a wide range of conditions - what works well for someone in Canada might not make sense for someone in Australia. This is true even when you have the exact same engine and use the exact same oil. That's why having a choice of oils is good, because you can find the one that meets your needs for your engine in your conditions and driving habits.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
So based on the facts and opionions generated, any Quaker State product, since they all contain quality base stocks and appear to have excellent additives (not to mention a great $
), will suffice for a conservative OCI of QSED/QSUD).
Originally Posted By: Solarent
When it comes to "testing" by the oil companies the marketing department often puts a spin on it to make it seem better. Even if we were given access to the sequence test results there is always a way to make it seem like Oil A is better than Oil B.
For example:
"mine is more clean"
"mine has stronger film strength"
"mine has special additive technology"
"mine uses only the best synthetic base"
etc. etc.
This is how I chose oil:
-1- Start with OEM recommendations
-2- Pick my desired maintenance program (OCI length, DIY/DIFM etc)
-3- Do a couple of UOA's to determine a baseline trend
-4- Pick my candidate oils based on price, availability and packaging (like I said - I'm shallow like that)
-5- Monitor my UOA trend to make sure I can achieve my maintenance goals with my selection (lucky for me I have access to really good cheap analysis)
-6- Adjust accordingly (this could mean trying a different oil based on viscosity performance or UOA results,or adjusting the OCI, it could also mean experimenting with blends or filters or additives etc.)
Everyone's engine will respond differently based on a wide range of conditions - what works well for someone in Canada might not make sense for someone in Australia. This is true even when you have the exact same engine and use the exact same oil. That's why having a choice of oils is good, because you can find the one that meets your needs for your engine in your conditions and driving habits.
I totally agree.
That pretty much sums it all up, and mirrors exactly my personal approach to the matter.
Except I don't care what the packaging is.
I'm a bit of a sceptic, and if the oil is packaged to fancy or it has a pretty colour, let alone a special scent added, then I tend to steer away and observe from a distance.
If one follows your process, it's hard to go wrong on the journey to reach a state of contentment regarding their choice in oils.
Unfortunately not everyone can pull it all together in a logical manner like that.
They can be easily misled by the marketing.
I know.
I used to be like that when I was much younger.
When it comes to "testing" by the oil companies the marketing department often puts a spin on it to make it seem better. Even if we were given access to the sequence test results there is always a way to make it seem like Oil A is better than Oil B.
For example:
"mine is more clean"
"mine has stronger film strength"
"mine has special additive technology"
"mine uses only the best synthetic base"
etc. etc.
This is how I chose oil:
-1- Start with OEM recommendations
-2- Pick my desired maintenance program (OCI length, DIY/DIFM etc)
-3- Do a couple of UOA's to determine a baseline trend
-4- Pick my candidate oils based on price, availability and packaging (like I said - I'm shallow like that)
-5- Monitor my UOA trend to make sure I can achieve my maintenance goals with my selection (lucky for me I have access to really good cheap analysis)
-6- Adjust accordingly (this could mean trying a different oil based on viscosity performance or UOA results,or adjusting the OCI, it could also mean experimenting with blends or filters or additives etc.)
Everyone's engine will respond differently based on a wide range of conditions - what works well for someone in Canada might not make sense for someone in Australia. This is true even when you have the exact same engine and use the exact same oil. That's why having a choice of oils is good, because you can find the one that meets your needs for your engine in your conditions and driving habits.
I totally agree.
That pretty much sums it all up, and mirrors exactly my personal approach to the matter.
Except I don't care what the packaging is.
I'm a bit of a sceptic, and if the oil is packaged to fancy or it has a pretty colour, let alone a special scent added, then I tend to steer away and observe from a distance.
If one follows your process, it's hard to go wrong on the journey to reach a state of contentment regarding their choice in oils.
Unfortunately not everyone can pull it all together in a logical manner like that.
They can be easily misled by the marketing.
I know.
I used to be like that when I was much younger.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: wemay
So based on the facts and opionions generated, any Quaker State product, since they all contain quality base stocks and appear to have excellent additives (not to mention a great $
), will suffice for a conservative OCI of QSED/QSUD).
Yes, decent performance for the price and your OCI.
So based on the facts and opionions generated, any Quaker State product, since they all contain quality base stocks and appear to have excellent additives (not to mention a great $
Yes, decent performance for the price and your OCI.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: wemay
So based on the facts and opionions generated, any Quaker State product, since they all contain quality base stocks and appear to have excellent additives (not to mention a great $
), will suffice for a conservative OCI of QSED/QSUD).
Yes, decent performance for the price and your OCI.
Thanks.
Don't eat too much chocolate...
Originally Posted By: wemay
So based on the facts and opionions generated, any Quaker State product, since they all contain quality base stocks and appear to have excellent additives (not to mention a great $
Yes, decent performance for the price and your OCI.
Thanks.
Don't eat too much chocolate...
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