under valve cover pics 163,000 elantra
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Either 3500 miles is a lie or that's the worst oil on the face of the Earth. That's a disturbing picture.
That's quaker state for you.
However, how old is this elantra? I thought the previous older generation had engines with timing belts, not chains.
Either 3500 miles is a lie or that's the worst oil on the face of the Earth. That's a disturbing picture.
That's quaker state for you.
However, how old is this elantra? I thought the previous older generation had engines with timing belts, not chains.
Not that it wouldn't probably work though
Originally Posted By: gman2304
Tongue in cheek, Kshachn...I didn't suggest Supertech in the Lambo....Just made a statement that it works well in my Briggs and Stratton...lol!
Originally Posted By: gman2304
Tongue in cheek, Kshachn...I didn't suggest Supertech in the Lambo....Just made a statement that it works well in my Briggs and Stratton...lol!
The varnish oh the varnish Can believe castriol will cause that varnish. I think Quaker state is more believable I heard they still using wax in there Dino oils
All sludged engines probably started off with varnish.
Not all varnished engines will develop sludge.
The engine in question is an outstanding example.
It clearly has varnish.
It has no sludge at all, and if it hasn't developed sludge after 163K, it isn't going to.
Not all varnished engines will develop sludge.
The engine in question is an outstanding example.
It clearly has varnish.
It has no sludge at all, and if it hasn't developed sludge after 163K, it isn't going to.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Maybe and maybe not.
Most engines have some varnish after 100K or so of typical maintenance.
Exactly, that's why I said varnish doesn't necessarily always lead to sludge. But if you have sludge, you've already had varnish.
Quote:
Most engines don't have sludge nor will they ever develop it.
Most engines that we'll see the inside of on this site perhaps. I've seen quite a few engines with sludge that operated in the real world by people who weren't faithful with maintenance. There are a surprising number of those engines and people out there. But essentially you are right in that as long as the oil is changed at least somewhat regularly sludge won't develop in most engines. I'll get to why later.
Quote:
Sludge and varnish are two very different things.
Certainly. Varnish is fall-out, whilst sludge, made of essentially the same ingredients, is an evolution of that fall out, mixed with emulsification that builds up as a "goop". But of course we know this goop can become a baked on crud, also called sludge. I'm sure many of us have seen both, as well as the in-between stuff.
Quote:
Sludge is not simply varnish with a higher water content, since there won't be any water content in anything in an engine that's run regularly to normal operating temperature.
If sludge were merely varnish combined with water, sludge would be very rare.
It's common in some engine families while unknown in others without regard to operating conditions.
That's where we are going to disagree and here's why:
We both know varnish is broken down oil, combustion products, broken down polymers....etc that the oil, no longer able to keep in suspension, allows to fall out and build up on surfaces.
Now, that same oil, during a warm-up, will mix with humidity/water inside the crankcase and cause these emulsified deposits. Unlike an engine that is short tripped and adds significant water to the oil, this engine will build up thin layers of this crud that quickly hardens as the engine operates at temp. This will create the hard, baked on sludge that we sometimes see in poorly maintained cars.
In a short-tripper, where the engine isn't up to temp frequently, you'll get more of the water-mixed product, which creates the sludgy goop that looks like axle grease under the valve cover.
If we think of what the GM intake gasket leakers create for sludge in short order, that's essentially a super sped up version of the process due to the greater than normal ingestion of water.
For sludge to occur however, negligence must be to the point where this product is allowed to be created in volume and build-up. If you have an engine where the oil just isn't changed frequently enough, there will be enough degradation to cause varnish but the oil isn't in the crankcase long enough in its broken down state to allow for any appreciable sludge to build-up and any that does develop is quickly taken care of by the additive package of the new oil when it is changed. While fresh oil won't wash off any appreciable amount of varnish, since sludge is soft in the beginning, it will remove that.
Where we see the variances in different engines I think stems from the fact that there are significant differences in oil drain back, operating temperature of various parts of the engine.....etc.
For example, think about on an old pushrod engine where sludge develops. In the valve cover. Why? Because that's the coolest spot in the engine and where there is going to be condensation to mix with the degraded oil to create sludge. In engines with generous aluminum oil pans that see a lot of air, you'll see sludge develop in the pan. I've seen this on a supercharged GM 3.8L, as the blower meant the top section of the engine, even the valve cover area, was HOT, whilst the large baffled pan was a big 'ol chunk of aluminum that was exposed to airflow under the car and was significantly cooler than anywhere else.
Well written.
That should be a sticky and footnote to be found in search under varnish and sludge.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Maybe and maybe not.
Most engines have some varnish after 100K or so of typical maintenance.
Exactly, that's why I said varnish doesn't necessarily always lead to sludge. But if you have sludge, you've already had varnish.
Quote:
Most engines don't have sludge nor will they ever develop it.
Most engines that we'll see the inside of on this site perhaps. I've seen quite a few engines with sludge that operated in the real world by people who weren't faithful with maintenance. There are a surprising number of those engines and people out there. But essentially you are right in that as long as the oil is changed at least somewhat regularly sludge won't develop in most engines. I'll get to why later.
Quote:
Sludge and varnish are two very different things.
Certainly. Varnish is fall-out, whilst sludge, made of essentially the same ingredients, is an evolution of that fall out, mixed with emulsification that builds up as a "goop". But of course we know this goop can become a baked on crud, also called sludge. I'm sure many of us have seen both, as well as the in-between stuff.
Quote:
Sludge is not simply varnish with a higher water content, since there won't be any water content in anything in an engine that's run regularly to normal operating temperature.
If sludge were merely varnish combined with water, sludge would be very rare.
It's common in some engine families while unknown in others without regard to operating conditions.
That's where we are going to disagree and here's why:
We both know varnish is broken down oil, combustion products, broken down polymers....etc that the oil, no longer able to keep in suspension, allows to fall out and build up on surfaces.
Now, that same oil, during a warm-up, will mix with humidity/water inside the crankcase and cause these emulsified deposits. Unlike an engine that is short tripped and adds significant water to the oil, this engine will build up thin layers of this crud that quickly hardens as the engine operates at temp. This will create the hard, baked on sludge that we sometimes see in poorly maintained cars.
In a short-tripper, where the engine isn't up to temp frequently, you'll get more of the water-mixed product, which creates the sludgy goop that looks like axle grease under the valve cover.
If we think of what the GM intake gasket leakers create for sludge in short order, that's essentially a super sped up version of the process due to the greater than normal ingestion of water.
For sludge to occur however, negligence must be to the point where this product is allowed to be created in volume and build-up. If you have an engine where the oil just isn't changed frequently enough, there will be enough degradation to cause varnish but the oil isn't in the crankcase long enough in its broken down state to allow for any appreciable sludge to build-up and any that does develop is quickly taken care of by the additive package of the new oil when it is changed. While fresh oil won't wash off any appreciable amount of varnish, since sludge is soft in the beginning, it will remove that.
Where we see the variances in different engines I think stems from the fact that there are significant differences in oil drain back, operating temperature of various parts of the engine.....etc.
For example, think about on an old pushrod engine where sludge develops. In the valve cover. Why? Because that's the coolest spot in the engine and where there is going to be condensation to mix with the degraded oil to create sludge. In engines with generous aluminum oil pans that see a lot of air, you'll see sludge develop in the pan. I've seen this on a supercharged GM 3.8L, as the blower meant the top section of the engine, even the valve cover area, was HOT, whilst the large baffled pan was a big 'ol chunk of aluminum that was exposed to airflow under the car and was significantly cooler than anywhere else.
Well written.
That should be a sticky and footnote to be found in search under varnish and sludge.
...and then there's this distinction...
...tarnish vs varnish....I see a LOT of engines' metal having turned copper-color after many miles...
...like mine...
...tarnish vs varnish....I see a LOT of engines' metal having turned copper-color after many miles...
...like mine...
Whats that grit in the photo from?
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What in the world is tarnish?
I though any discoloration was varnish which is a precursor for sludge?
Photos of the same engines with full synthetics since new show no discoloration and just clean metals parts, this is from the pictures I have seen on BITOG and 3 rebuilds I did with a friend personally.
I though any discoloration was varnish which is a precursor for sludge?
Photos of the same engines with full synthetics since new show no discoloration and just clean metals parts, this is from the pictures I have seen on BITOG and 3 rebuilds I did with a friend personally.
I had thought that tarnishing was a chemical reaction to the metal changing the color, and varnishing a superficial coating of the metal, that sticky surface leading to sludging...maybe wrong there, but the metal surface here wasn't at all "sticky" like varnish.
The grit was from the factory valve cover gasket that had, after 8 years and 100k miles, turned from rubber to brittle-crumbly cardboard...it got changed with the spark plugs...
The grit was from the factory valve cover gasket that had, after 8 years and 100k miles, turned from rubber to brittle-crumbly cardboard...it got changed with the spark plugs...
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