HGMO 0w-20: 4,553 mi, 36,558 mi, 11' CRV

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Have been trying to keep this vehicle on a every April & October change schedule. Usually this results in a ~6,000 mile OCI. This time it was only 4553 miles with MM light at 40%, but changed it anyway. If the October change has similarly low miles I will have to rethink the schedule but I would really like to avoid the garage floor in January.

Usage is at least 90% city. Most trips are 10-20 minutes in length, had plenty of idling through this past (very cold) winter. OEM filter, and Honda 0w-20. Replaced with the same.

Code:


Miles on oil 4,553 6,185 5,942 Universal

Miles on unit 36,588 32,035 25,850 Averages

Sample date 04/07/14 10/25/13 04/08/2013

Make up oil added 0 0 0

OIL TYPE HG 0w-20 HG 0w-20 HG 0w-20



Aluminum 4 4 4 3

Chromium 1 0 0 0

Iron 6 6 9 9

Copper 1 2 2 3

Lead 0 0 1 1

Tin 0 0 0 1

Molybdenum 22 70 42 76

Nickel 0 0 0 0

Manganese 0 0 0 1

Silver 0 0 0 0

Titanium 0 2 0 1

Potassium 1 1 1 3

Boron 62 44 4 49

Silicon 17 25 16 12

Sodium 8 0 7 46

Calcium 2000 2050 2378 2212

Magnesium 8 12 16 111

Phosphorus 675 637 691 684

Zinc 749 692 854 813

Barium 0 0 0 0







SUS Viscosity @210F 46.8 49.2 49.4

cSt Viscosity @100C 6.28 7.02 7.09

Flashpoint 355 340 355

Fuel % 1.5 2.3 1.5

Antifreeze % 0 0.0 0.0

Water % 0 0.0 0.0

Insolubles % 0.3 0.2 0.4

TBN 2.1 1.7

TAN
 
This oil doesn't look like anything to write home about. Hardly any Moly, and the viscosity at 100c is on the lower side of a 20 weight. Ever considered TGMO?
 
Thanks for the report. Is this 0W-20 the full synthetic or the synthetic blend? Looks fine for your use. Probably not something worth paying extra for, though. Are you getting it at a discount (or at least the same price) compared with other mass market 0W-20s?
 
The Moly and Boron are all over the place in those 3 samples. Are they really all HG? Are they all full synthetic or all blends? Or is there a mix of the two?

TBN retention is pretty iffy too. But if you like 5k OCI's, nothing wrong here. You have to go way out of your way to abuse a Honda engine with oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Phishin
The Moly and Boron are all over the place in those 3 samples. Are they really all HG? Are they all full synthetic or all blends? Or is there a mix of the two?


I saw that and have no explanation. The last two are HG full synthetic 0w-20 I purchased and did the changes myself. There has never been any blending on my part. The first one at 25,000 miles was drained by me but it was there from the dealer, they called it "synthetic" 0w-20 and I always assumed it was the HG synthetic blend.
 
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Is this ConocoPhillips oil or Idemitsu?


I think HG is all COP now. Someone tell me if I'm wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Ever considered TGMO?

Sure have. Has the lowest 40C viscosity of any oil(ow-20, that is) I have come across. I would think it well suited for an engine that spends so much time doing short trips. I'm just out of the warranty period now so I will take other options more seriously going forward.
 
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This kind of proves that modern Honda engines are no longer "easy on oil" especially with frequent short trips. Fuel dilution & rapid TBN depletion makes the OLM inaccurate and dangerous to take down to 5% unless you do mostly hwy mileage.

Or maybe this CoP oil just sucks? Canadian HGMO is still made by Idemitsu.

I think you should try Mobil1 EP since it has better TBN retention.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
This oil doesn't look like anything to write home about. Hardly any Moly, and the viscosity at 100c is on the lower side of a 20 weight. Ever considered TGMO?

Jeez Greg, negligible wear #'s and you're chirping about the specs and add pack? That's like having your favorite baseball team win 10-0 and complaining about the terrible base running. Let's think big picture - results matter. Of course this is BITOG, nitpicking is an obsession.
 
I agree with gregk24 though, unless OP is getting this oil for free or at half of retail, there is nothing special about it. Why not try a better oil if it costs the same?

Sure this oil did its job by preventing wear & tear but there's not much life left after only 4.5k miles. The viscosity rating is close to being out of spec, so continued use could mean accelerated wear.

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Originally Posted By: gregk24
This oil doesn't look like anything to write home about. Hardly any Moly, and the viscosity at 100c is on the lower side of a 20 weight. Ever considered TGMO?

Jeez Greg, negligible wear #'s and you're chirping about the specs and add pack? That's like having your favorite baseball team win 10-0 and complaining about the terrible base running. Let's think big picture - results matter. Of course this is BITOG, nitpicking is an obsession.
 
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Sure this oil did its job by preventing wear & tear but there's not much life left after only 4.5k miles. The viscosity rating is close to being out of spec, so continued use could mean accelerated wear.




Do you like band waging, cheer-leading, shouting inaccurate and rather ignorant advice? Do you like the attention?

2.1 TBN plenty of oil life left if Fuel Dilution was lower and fuel dilution is not a fault of the PCMO formulation. Out of grade? This is a 0W20 that has been specified to blended as light as possible with a boat load of viscosity index improvers, then back to fuel dilution.

I was not going to say anything about your flawed approached and needless product bashing that has nothing to do with the data presented. But if you want to keep digging holes I will give you a hand anytime.
 
Looks like you're the one who wants attention trying to start an argument over the internet lol.

If you had done any research you'll know that just a raw TBN number only tells half the story about how much life is left in the oil.

The ratio of TBN to TAN is what matters and most oils start off with a TAN of 1-2 which rises over the OCI. It's safe to say that with a TBN of 2, there isn't enough additive left to neutralize any additional acid from combustion.

http://www.usoilchek.com/Used_Oil_Analysis/Pages/TBN-TAN.aspx
Quote:
TAN increases in service as TBN decreases. The point at which these two numbers meet has been indicated as the maximum useful oil change interval for that type of engine in that type of service. Studies have shown that when TAN exceeds TBN, engine wear accelerates at abnormally high rates.


http://www.oil-analysis.org/tan_tbn_test.html
Quote:
As a general rule of thumb, if the TBN is measured at 2.0mg KOH g-1 or less, or if it's 50% of the virgin oil TBN, the oil is considered unfit for engine protection and there is a risk that corrosion could take place.


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/2170/oil-drain-interval-tan-tbn
The following table represents TBN/TAN test results across a fleet of more than 450 pick-up/delivery trucks. TAN remains fairly steady until the TBN depletes from 12 to about 6. The two meet at between 50 and 65 percent depletion of the TBN. The TAN is significantly higher than the TBN after the TBN has reached 65 percent depletion, which indicates that the oil’s ability to neutralize acids has dropped significantly. The oil should be changed to prevent corrosive engine wear from occurring.
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Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Sure this oil did its job by preventing wear & tear but there's not much life left after only 4.5k miles. The viscosity rating is close to being out of spec, so continued use could mean accelerated wear.




Do you like band waging, cheer-leading, shouting inaccurate and rather ignorant advice? Do you like the attention?

2.1 TBN plenty of oil life left if Fuel Dilution was lower and fuel dilution is not a fault of the PCMO formulation. Out of grade? This is a 0W20 that has been specified to blended as light as possible with a boat load of viscosity index improvers, then back to fuel dilution.

I was not going to say anything about your flawed approached and needless product bashing that has nothing to do with the data presented. But if you want to keep digging holes I will give you a hand anytime.
 
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Or maybe this CoP oil just sucks?


I don't think I'd say that it "sucks", but it doesn't appear to retain its TBN for a long time. A number of UOAs of this oil seem to demonstrate that it may not be as optimized as some other oils for longer drain intervals. I don't think wear numbers are ever abnormally high, but there often doesn't seem to be much TBN left after only moderate runs (like this one).
 
This is a pcmo not HDEO truck applicaton; engine surely would see worse wear rates with high % over base high DD package LL lubricant with mid low saps AW/EP.
 
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Originally Posted By: HKPolice
This kind of proves that modern Honda engines are no longer "easy on oil" especially with frequent short trips. Fuel dilution & rapid TBN depletion makes the OLM inaccurate and dangerous to take down to 5% unless you do mostly hwy mileage.


I'd hate to condemn Honda at large because one UOA on my wife's short tripper. The manufacturer of anything my wife touches on a daily basis always gets the benefit of the doubt
wink.gif
. Just ask Samsung, Kenmore, Logitech, Apple (yes she can even break an Apple). Joking aside, I would join with others' criticism of HGMO based on this run it it weren't for my previous UOAs. I have what I think is a solid report with the oil on a 6K run i.e., the MM light was at 15%(the point where Honda gives you the change-me symbol) that was a run with with same punishing 90% city, short trip duty--the numbers look fine on that one. I wonder if the unusually cold winter had an effect here?
 
OK. Where is the data. The VOA of this lube. The nitration, excessive wear metals, TAN numbers?

Not there. So you are going to say this lube "sucks" and is done with not even half the data. How can you make that call?
 
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
This kind of proves that modern Honda engines are no longer "easy on oil" especially with frequent short trips. Fuel dilution & rapid TBN depletion makes the OLM inaccurate and dangerous to take down to 5% unless you do mostly hwy mileage.

Or maybe this CoP oil just sucks? Canadian HGMO is still made by Idemitsu.

I think you should try Mobil1 EP since it has better TBN retention.


I don't think that you can draw any of these conclusions based upon one UOA.
There are too many really clean UOAs from the K24 at double or more the miles the OP put on this sample with all kinds of oils.
I think I'll UOA the third drain from my K24.
It has Idemitsu API SM HGMO 0W-20 in it which has been run since 12/22/13 through some very cold mornings with plenty of idling.
The car should hit 15% MM in a couple of months after about 7K on this change.
It'll be intersting to see how it looks after about 22-23K on the engine.
I'll include the FF UOA when I post this one, since the FF one looks so awful for a Honda.
 
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