I Don't Change My Oil

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I am missing the point....is there a logical reason to perform this test that I am not understanding? The filter doesnt serve as valuable a purpose as the oil. Also oil is a filter. Why not change it out once in awhile? A filter at 3,000 probably looks very goodd inside still. Imo you would be better off changing oil more often and leaving the filter. Oil is to cheap for me not to do it every 5,000 miles or so. Ive been given [censored] on here before but my opinion is no engine has ever been damaged from changing the oil to soon on the other hand pushing oils limits has proven risky in certain cases, pop the valve cover off and let us see that. Then we can compare your pictures to mine and people with a similar mind set as me and see who's is cleaner.


Remember I get about 1 1/2 quarts of fresh oil every 4k, so essentially it's a full change every 12k. So it's not like I have the same old oil forever and ever.

My point is to save oil. If I were changing oil at 4k like before, that would have been 16.5 gallons of oil use total. I estimate for the same mileage using my system I have used 5.5 gallons. Then there's the issue of ease of the change. I just pull the filter, so that means no jacking up the car, I just reach under there and unscrew the filter. The waste oil can be caught in a paper cup. The whole process takes two minutes. I can do it on the road on long trips no problem. I can't remember the last time I actually had to dispose of the waste oil, maybe when I changed my Dad's transmission fluid. Then there's the cost. I buy the $3.29 filters at Wal Mart. So the total oil used, plus the filter cost me about $7 vs. about $19 before.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
I'm doing something similar. My GM 3.6L V6, DI, high compression at 11.3:1, 2011 Camaro engine, has an Oil Life Monitor (OLM) which was programmed for frequent oil changes by GM. Too frequent I think.

So, I drain about half the oil out, and change the filter, at each OLM notification, about 3000 to 4000 miles or so(in normal service mixed highway/urban driving, over 5 miles each trip).

Oil is a very good Pennzoil Ultra (4718M, HTO-06, etc.) with a low 7% NOACK, and I use the best oil filter I can find with an excellent ISO 4548-12 of better than 99% at less than 20 microns (Fram ToughGuard or Mobil1 Extended Performance filters).

Why only change half the oil out at each OLM time? Reference: http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-3119/
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
"In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils." ... "As in the previous study, the results showed [in this new field study with taxi fleets] that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval."



Yeah, I've seen that before: That with full synthetic oil, the fresh oil is contaminated MORE for the first 3k, and gets cleaner after that. The presumption was new synthetic oil contains extra TBNs and loosens up gunk and contaminates the oil more until the TBNs start to wear off. Then the contamination settles down once the filter does it's job.

 

[Rand]

actually its not really like a full change at 12k

IIRC that car is 4qts with filter?

Special note: If I mention K I mean 1000 miles
not kilometers eh.


at 4 qt capacity you are changing 1.5qt every 4000 miles(simplified for math purposes)

this would be 37.5% changed at 4k

at 8k(before change) it would be 37.5% 4k oil, 62.5% 8k oil

at 11.5k before the 3rd change your car would have oil consisting of
39% oil with 11.5k miles on it
23% oil with 7.5k on it
37.5% oil with 3.5k on it

after the 12k oil change you would have
37.5% fresh oil,
62.5% oil oil consisting of
24.4% with 12k miles on it
14.4% with 8k miles on it
23.4% with 4k miles on it


if you are interested I'm sure someone could make out a spreadsheet calculator.

anything that doesnt add to 100% is rounding errors.

In addition the filter filters better the longer its in.. within reason..usually the best oil filters will go 15k easy.. why does it look better? maybe the dilution with fresh oil.


after aprox 24000 and 6 "changes of 1.5qt" miles on the oil will level off
and you will have only 6% of the oil with 24000 miles on it

 

[Stelth]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Well, thanks guys for all the kind words and reasoned opinion. My Hyundai forum guys think I'm bonkers-crazy and ridicule me to no end. So it was refreshing to come here. I think I just go ahead and do my test early since there's enough time on this oil to indicate something, no need to wait the extra 3k.


Hey, I know you're not interested in TBN and TAN, but everyone else is. I'll pay the extra for those tests, just let me know how much.

 

[Stelth]

Originally Posted By: toneydoc
Not gonna blast you at all. I think this is quite interesting. I knew a lady who never even changed her oil filter. She only added oil and that was like a quart every thousand miles or so. The hood stayed down by wire, trunk would not open, and she said it would be a waste to change the filter. She did not care if it went or stayed on bypass. The engine blew a spark plug out one day and she was too cheap to spend a couple hundred to get it repaired. That car went to the crusher.


You knew my mother-in-law?!

 

[toneydoc]

No I did not know you mother in law thank God. This lady did play a piano at a church every Sunday however. She was just toooo cheap. When her mother died, she did not even take the time to go and attend the funeral. So sad. At least when a car dies, it gets crushed and recycled. Not the same for us. We are just gone.

Experiments are just that. NOthing more. This guy is conducting an experiment. I did it in chemistry in the past. If it fails, so does his car. If is succeeds, so be it. We may learn something, who knows. Time will tell.

 

[ram_man]

I guess when it comes to something valuable that I rely on I dont like doing scientific experiments. I prefer using proven methods backed by highly intelligent engineers, chemists and whatever else. Ill play with oil grade a little bit but thats as exciting as I get. I imagine your engine runs fine however I bet its not as clean as it could be and I bet it has received more wear than an engine properly cared for with proven intervals.

 

[Triton_330]

Oh what the hay, I guess I'll jump on this bandwagon.

All I gotta say is:

I agree with Rand about the math.
However, I agree with the op's thoughts about the new oil being able to suspend the gunk so that the filter can do its job.
Not that I think ALL the crud will be filtered, but I think enough will be filtered so that the engine should endure the run. Maybe just that, and thus after the run it may be running quite poorly, but hey it's for fun so keep on keepin on op!

Also, sorry if I missed this, I only skimmed thru the comments, but what engine is this being done to?

 

[CourierDriver]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Well, thanks guys for all the kind words and reasoned opinion. My Hyundai forum guys think I'm bonkers-crazy and ridicule me to no end. So it was refreshing to come here. I think I just go ahead and do my test early since there's enough time on this oil to indicate something, no need to wait the extra 3k.


Don't worry about,,,way back when Orville and Wilbur made a plane fly, the dudes of the day said it would not work,,,can we say space travel today boys and girls,,lmao. Ps, had a 73 f100 pickup, did not change oil for 5 years, started, ran, and is still running for the guy I gave it to,,go figure,,enjoy life, you have probably put most of this crowd in a migraine condition,lol.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Oh what the hay, I guess I'll jump on this bandwagon.

All I gotta say is:

I agree with Rand about the math.
However, I agree with the op's thoughts about the new oil being able to suspend the gunk so that the filter can do its job.
Not that I think ALL the crud will be filtered, but I think enough will be filtered so that the engine should endure the run. Maybe just that, and thus after the run it may be running quite poorly, but hey it's for fun so keep on keepin on op!

Also, sorry if I missed this, I only skimmed thru the comments, but what engine is this being done to?


It's a '99 Hyundai Elantra with a 2.0L. Nothing special.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I guess when it comes to something valuable that I rely on I dont like doing scientific experiments. I prefer using proven methods backed by highly intelligent engineers, chemists and whatever else. Ill play with oil grade a little bit but thats as exciting as I get. I imagine your engine runs fine however I bet its not as clean as it could be and I bet it has received more wear than an engine properly cared for with proven intervals.


I'm don't think my oil is inferior in any way. In fact, my theory is that my oil is superior in some ways. But we shall see.

 

[toneydoc]

Well I really doubt your oil is superior in many ways. It is being refreshed and has a good filter to catch particles in the oil. I suspect it is ok. Will be interesting to see the analysis. I am looking forward to it. Keep up the run to 50k please.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Stelth
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Well, thanks guys for all the kind words and reasoned opinion. My Hyundai forum guys think I'm bonkers-crazy and ridicule me to no end. So it was refreshing to come here. I think I just go ahead and do my test early since there's enough time on this oil to indicate something, no need to wait the extra 3k.


Hey, I know you're not interested in TBN and TAN, but everyone else is. I'll pay the extra for those tests, just let me know how much.


Hyundai forum people get mad that you're not changing the oil and filter every 3K.

Bobistheoilguy gets mad that you are changing the filter too soon, at 4K.

It's funny!

I had a friend that did this for approx 40K miles on a 2003 Santa Fe. The oil change sticker was for around 100K if I remember. It had 140K on it when he got rid of it.

At one point around 130 (if I remember), it started surging between 2 and 3 ... or not shifting at all. I ended up sucking out 3 quarts of the blackest transmission fluid I have ever seen and put in some ATF+3. It solved the surging issue, but shifted HARSH between 2 and 3. Would bark the tires sometimes!

I didn't see any sludge or anything on the head when looking through the oil fill cap.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Stelth
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Well, thanks guys for all the kind words and reasoned opinion. My Hyundai forum guys think I'm bonkers-crazy and ridicule me to no end. So it was refreshing to come here. I think I just go ahead and do my test early since there's enough time on this oil to indicate something, no need to wait the extra 3k.


Hey, I know you're not interested in TBN and TAN, but everyone else is. I'll pay the extra for those tests, just let me know how much.


Hyundai forum people get mad that you're not changing the oil and filter every 3K.

Bobistheoilguy gets mad that you are changing the filter too soon, at 4K.

It's funny!

I had a friend that did this for approx 40K miles on a 2003 Santa Fe. The oil change sticker was for around 100K if I remember. It had 140K on it when he got rid of it.

At one point around 130 (if I remember), it started surging between 2 and 3 ... or not shifting at all. I ended up sucking out 3 quarts of the blackest transmission fluid I have ever seen and put in some ATF+3. It solved the surging issue, but shifted HARSH between 2 and 3. Would bark the tires sometimes!

I didn't see any sludge or anything on the head when looking through the oil fill cap.


Yeah, the hyundai-forums people are a little snitty over there sometimes. A lot of them are new car snobs and think their cars are really great, etc. They laugh at me with my poor man's daily driver. They argue over what is the best oil and filter.

But old Hyundais are rare because Hyundai makes cheesy cars. I drive my car because it's cheap and the Air Con still works, and it gets 35 mpg total average (I've tracked mileage at Fuelly for 152 fills now). And besides, I to horrible things to my car like tow my boat to Maine from Florida. If my car blows up, no problem because I'm not in love with it, and I'm ready to move up to something different anyways. I'm just not allowed to throw away perfectly good cars.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

My experience on that site was not that good when trying to troubleshoot an issue with above 2003 Santa Fe.

The headlights would turn on - but no tail lights or gauge cluster lights. Turns out the problem was the connector for the stalk just needed to be reseated.

I don't think the Santa Fe was a bad engine. Mitsubishi Engine and Transmission, apparently. Other than having a timing belt (I have a very strong hate of them) it wasn't a bad ride. Even had an external trans filter!

But it made it to 140K with no maintenance other than a timing belt at 80K. Original trans fluid, oil changes Done regularly up to 100K and done .. .no spark plugs, air filter, etc.

 

[ram_man]

Making it and thriving is 2 different things. Sure a car can tolerate a lack of maintenance. But why would you want it to. I pride myself in a clean engine. And your theory is far from superior

 

[SatinSilver]

Even the local taxi cab company here has oil changes done to the Crown Vics with MC oil. Oil is checked daily and topped off as needed. So these cabs get better service than the OP's car. A cab or two burns through 4 quarts over 12 hours/300 miles or so.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Making it and thriving is 2 different things. Sure a car can tolerate a lack of maintenance. But why would you want it to. I pride myself in a clean engine. And your theory is far from superior


But what would you say if you were wrong? What if I have it tested and it shows excellent oil, as I expect?

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Even the local taxi cab company here has oil changes done to the Crown Vics with MC oil. Oil is checked daily and topped off as needed. So these cabs get better service than the OP's car. A cab or two burns through 4 quarts over 12 hours/300 miles or so.


I wouldn't be driving a car that uses THAT much oil. A car like that should be condemned for environmental reasons.

 

[ram_man]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Making it and thriving is 2 different things. Sure a car can tolerate a lack of maintenance. But why would you want it to. I pride myself in a clean engine. And your theory is far from superior


But what would you say if you were wrong? What if I have it tested and it shows excellent oil, as I expect?


rand was exactly right with his numbers.
if you car truly uses a qt in 4,000 miles its had 5qts of oil added in 20,000 miles so even if it was all brand new every 20,000 thats still a long time. You changing your filter every 3,000 or 10,000 makes little difference. I built a rig to test oil filters so I do understand filter efficiency. I think your numbers wont be top notch and further more to make me believe you you would have to take 2 samples at the same to two diffent labs. Ive seen blackstone screw up several uoa including one of my own.
But I promise I wont be wrong. Your numbers wont be superior to an engine with a similar car with a proper oil change at proper intervals. Im not worried about being wrong not in the least.