Michelin Premier A/S hits the stores today...

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Two comments on this:

First, I'm not sure I've read, from a manufacturer that say their best tires to go OE'S contracts and the tires that don't make that cut get sold at retail. I do know that that's a common belief, but I'm not sure it's based in fact. It could be...I've just never seen that verified anywhere.....


OK, I'm not a "manufacturer", but I used to work for one, and I can affirm this to be the case.

HOWEVER, there are a lot of reasons why tires fail to meet the "OE standards", but would meet "replacement market standards". PLUS, there is always some mixing of "OE grade" in the "Replacement" mix.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
.......Second, if that is indeed the case, they'd be talking about things like uniformity, roundness, etc. How that specific tire part number (part number, not model name) performs, things like grip or ride quality, should be the same whether you get it as original equipment or if you buy it from a tire dealer.


And you are absolutely correct about this.

It isn't the overall tire characteristics are different, it's the consistency from individual to individual. Uniformity, balance is a common theme, but so is the appearance. There are certain appearance issues that vehicle manufacturers are fussy about and the average consumer is not - and vice versa.

But there is a wrinkle: Some tire manufacturers will also produce a seemingly identical tire for the replacement market - and it is indeed different (made the way the tire manufacturer thinks tires ought to be designed). It's hard to tell which are which, but you can get a hint in Tire Rack's specifications as they will list a number of apparently the same tire and specify which are OE.

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Honestly, I'm totally OK with the 8.5/32 tread. You know why?

Because Michelin's non-performance tires (basically any non-OE Michelin that doesn't have "Pilot" in its name) last a really really long time. Even after 10 years, a Primacy MXV4, Harmony, Symmetry, or Defender will still have half of their treads left with heavy sidewall cracking. This can actually be a bad thing because people won't replace the tires "oh it still has half the tread left so they don't need to be replaced yet"

With the shorter tread of 8.5/32, they will still last the 10 years that people drive the MXV4's on but they'll just show signs of needing to be replaced that are more obvious than the sidewall cracking that everybody seems to miss.

Plus, there are performance and fuel economy advantages to be had with less starting tread.


I wish.

If you have a tire lasting 10 years before it wears out, you are not hardly driving. Even driving 25K miles per year they would be done in 4 years.

If I put on that few of miles, I sure wouldn't be buying a premium tire, I'd be buying the local tire shops store brand.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But there is a wrinkle: Some tire manufacturers will also produce a seemingly identical tire for the replacement market - and it is indeed different (made the way the tire manufacturer thinks tires ought to be designed). It's hard to tell which are which, but you can get a hint in Tire Rack's specifications as they will list a number of apparently the same tire and specify which are OE.


Yes. And in this case, there is generally a different part number for the "retail market" tire. I remember once that Michelin had four different part numbers for the Symmetry in 225/60R16. One was OE for Honda, in a 98T rating. One was OE for Ford, in a 97S with whitewall and the accompanying "F code". One was OE for GM, in 97S with blackwall and the accompanying TPC spec. And the last was the "retail market" version, in 97S with blackwall. Same tire model, same look, generally identical tread pattern, etc. But four different part numbers!

Sam's Club used to sell the Symmetry in that size and whitewall. A check of the tire's part number on the tire sticker, cross-referenced with Michelin's website, confirmed it to be the Ford OES tire.

 

[supton]

"opinions vary": Yep. We hated our Primacy's when we got them, they were horrid in snow. Fast forward to today, they are what, 4/32's? just a couple of 32's left above the wear bar. And we swear they do better in snow now! I have yet to figure that one out. Less tread squirm? The thing we hated was the car going sideways; we expect little traction but not when it would go sideways. It does that much less frequently now. Not only that but they seem to have stopped wearing too. I swore these would only be good for 30k but I think they might just make 50k, given how much slower they are wearing now. Weird.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
But there is a wrinkle: Some tire manufacturers will also produce a seemingly identical tire for the replacement market - and it is indeed different (made the way the tire manufacturer thinks tires ought to be designed). It's hard to tell which are which, but you can get a hint in Tire Rack's specifications as they will list a number of apparently the same tire and specify which are OE.


Yes. And in this case, there is generally a different part number for the "retail market" tire. I remember once that Michelin had four different part numbers for the Symmetry in 225/60R16. One was OE for Honda, in a 98T rating. One was OE for Ford, in a 97S with whitewall and the accompanying "F code". One was OE for GM, in 97S with blackwall and the accompanying TPC spec. And the last was the "retail market" version, in 97S with blackwall. Same tire model, same look, generally identical tread pattern, etc. But four different part numbers!

Sam's Club used to sell the Symmetry in that size and whitewall. A check of the tire's part number on the tire sticker, cross-referenced with Michelin's website, confirmed it to be the Ford OES tire.


I want to expand this even further, the way at least one company keeps inventory, ALL replacement market (you used the term "retail market") tires have a separate SKU number - meaning you couldn't identify the OE "Downstreams" without a decoder.

And when they had too many OE grade tires (or not enough replacement grade tires), they relabeled the OE grade tires with the replacement market codes.

OK, there are marks on tires that give away they are OE - at least in design quality. Among those are GM's TPC number, BMW's star, Ford's ID number, Jaguar's "J", etc. But you can't tell from those marks if those also meet the other specs, such as balance and uniformity.

To say this can get complicated is to understate the issue.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Barry,

What I read from the discussion is that for a tire that is sold to OE contracts and in the replacement market, there may be a higher criteria for uniformity for the tires that go to the OE contracts. Those tires that may "fail" those higher uniformity standards (or if they need more replacement market units) get the replacement market decals with the replacement market part number and get loaded on the truck to go to the tire store. Is that correct, at least in your experience?

What happens with, say, a model line that is for the replacement market only? Take, for example, this new Michelin Premier A/S. Because there are no OE customers, are all of the tires only tested against the "lower" replacement market uniformity specification? I imagine they wouldn't need to test to a higher standard, because there are no OE contracts.

And going slightly off-topic, is it safe to imagine that each OE customer has their own uniformity requirements?

Complicated indeed.

 

[Volvohead]

We almost bought a set of these last weekend to replace the wonderful but discontinued MXV4s, but the 8.5/32 was just too thin for me on new tires. I don't understand the justification, especially at the price point.

Of the four dealers I spoke to, three shared the same trepidation on tread depth. The fourth didn't know the tire yet, but the owner is trying a set out before recommending it to his customers. These are smaller indies that want happy customers that come back, not quick sales.

There are still MXV4s in warehouse, but finding ready spares in a year or two is a dice shoot if one goes out.

So we went with the PureContact Eco this time, which is honestly a very, very nice tire. Conti has been making some solid tires lately.

 

[michaelluscher]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
There are still MXV4s in warehouse, but finding ready spares in a year or two is a dice shoot if one goes out
This......
I hope is true, and reflects in lower prices towards the end of the year. Ad I have a neighbors Sonata and grandfathers Camry that desperately need a new set of rubber

 

[KitaCam]

Since no one has actually driven these tires for their tread-life span, I would say that any predictions and negative reactions are at best premature...standard internet chatter by the uninformed...

I would be willing to bet that Michelin has upgraded its tread compound technology to meet the tire's stated specifications...

 

[jjjxlr8]

The marketing spin about the tread changing as it wears is very true, but ALL tires change as they wear!

Anyway, there are a couple of reasons why I think the tread depth is so shallow on these new tires. If you look at the circumferential grooves, the draft angles on the ribs are reverse from what you typically see. Typically with most tires, as the tread wears, the grooves become narrower because of the draft angles on the sides of the tread blocks. On these new Michelins, the circumferential grooves get wider as the tread wears. The problem with this reverse draft is that the tread blocks are less stable for handling with the "undercut" draft angles. The shallow tread depth allows them to get away with it because the shorter tread blocks are more stable than blocks at say, 11 32nds. The other reason that a shallow tread depth may be required for this type of tread feature is for stripping the tires out of the molds.

The other feature that Michelin uses on these tires is in the shoulder, where they have sipes (thin grooves in the individual blocks) that become wider when the tread wears down. The same problems with tread block stability and mold stripping have to be considered with these, too, and the shallow tread depth helps. This technology isn't new and has been around since the early 90's, though, but leave it to Michelin marketing to spin it into something revolutionary!

 

[CapriRacer]

I don't know why it took me so long to notice this. Sorry for the delay.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Barry,

What I read from the discussion is that for a tire that is sold to OE contracts and in the replacement market, there may be a higher criteria for uniformity for the tires that go to the OE contracts. Those tires that may "fail" those higher uniformity standards (or if they need more replacement market units) get the replacement market decals with the replacement market part number and get loaded on the truck to go to the tire store. Is that correct, at least in your experience?.....


Yup.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
........What happens with, say, a model line that is for the replacement market only? Take, for example, this new Michelin Premier A/S. Because there are no OE customers, are all of the tires only tested against the "lower" replacement market uniformity specification? I imagine they wouldn't need to test to a higher standard, because there are no OE contracts.

And going slightly off-topic, is it safe to imagine that each OE customer has their own uniformity requirements?..........


Yes, and even within a particular vehicle manufacturer, there will be differences. For example, for GM passenger car tires (those not going on trucks and SUV's) there were 3 different uniformity levels depending on what vehicle line they were going to.

I don't know why it took me so long to notice this. Soory for the delay.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
.......Complicated indeed.


It is!!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I don't know why it took me so long to notice this. Sorry for the delay.


No problem, and thank you for your reply!

One last question... For OES contract tires, do new car dealerships receive the same OES tires that the manufacturer does, or are they considered replacement market installers? In other words, would there be any benefit to buying tires at a car dealer instead of a tire dealer?

Example, we just bought a set of Michelin Primacy MXV4 for our MDX, in P235/65R17. These are OE tires for the new Honda Odyssey. Does the Honda dealer receive the same "replacement market" tires that BJs does, which is where we bought them, or would the Honda dealer get the "OE grade" tires like the Honda plant might receive?

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Since no one has actually driven these tires for their tread-life span, I would say that any predictions and negative reactions are at best premature...standard internet chatter by the uninformed...

I would be willing to bet that Michelin has upgraded its tread compound technology to meet the tire's stated specifications...


Someone will be Guinea pig. But at that price, not us.
Maybe next time, once it's got a track record behind it.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I don't know why it took me so long to notice this. Sorry for the delay.


No problem, and thank you for your reply!

One last question... For OES contract tires, do new car dealerships receive the same OES tires that the manufacturer does, or are they considered replacement market installers? In other words, would there be any benefit to buying tires at a car dealer instead of a tire dealer?

Example, we just bought a set of Michelin Primacy MXV4 for our MDX, in P235/65R17. These are OE tires for the new Honda Odyssey. Does the Honda dealer receive the same "replacement market" tires that BJ's does, which is where we bought them, or would the Honda dealer get the "OE grade" tires like the Honda plant might receive?


I know of no one except the vehicle assembly plants that receive OE grade tires. EVERY tire available to purchase by a consumer, a car dealer, a tire dealer, a warehouse club, or a distributor would be from the "replacement" inventory - however that is managed by the tire manufacturer.

I also know of no way a car dealer can arrange to get an OE grade tire - even through their OE parts sources.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Aren't these just an A/S version of their PS2? IIRC they did the same with the Pilot Sports.

 

[DaveK]

I have a 2012 Nissan Altima that came with the Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires. I like the tires a lot, but we caught a nail in the passenger side front tire. The tire leaks air slowly. Takes about 3 or 4 weeks to drop from around 33 lbs down to about 26 lbs where the TPMS indicates a low tire pressure. Front tires still have 5/32 tread remaining while the back tires have 6/32 tread remaining. A lot of life left in all tires. The speed rating on our factory tires are H rated (middle of the road between V, H and T - T is lowest). The current set of available Primacy MXV4 tires that I can pickup now are T speed rating (lowest of speed ratings). I was originally thinking of picking up 2 replacement tires, but since they are the next lower speed rated spec, I'm not sure if that's something that should be done (mixing speed rated tires between front and back). Then again, I'm not sure how much that matters. Either way, my preference would be to keep the same specs as what was installed by Nissan.

I've been told that installing T rated tires would be more than sufficient for my vehicle. This means that I have a few choices. If I don't mix/match, I can replace all 4 tires with either the T rated tires (Primacy MXV4), or I'm considering replacing all 4 with the new Premier A/S model (H speed rated). Or lastly I could mix/match and put T rated Primacy MXV4 tires only on the front. Buying 4 tires at once though saves $70, so reduces my cost per tire by about $18.50 (helpful).

From what I've read so far, seems most everyone has high regards for the new Premier A/S tires. I wasn't aware of the shorter tread depth, but found that the tread life warranty is the same for both - 60,000 miles (Primacy or Premier). So though I don't like the "thought" of a shorter tread depth, it must wear slower to meet the same warranty estimation.

Seems like most here are split both ways - some like the Primacy and some like the newer Premier. The cost difference is about $75 between the 2 models. For 4 tires balanced and installed, it's $597 for the Primacy (T speed rated) or about $677 for the Premier H rated (balanced and installed).

If cost was not an issue, is it preferable to stick with the H rated tires (matching what Nissan installed) or would going with the latest Primacy (T speed rated) be good enough?

Should I mix/match H and T speed rated tires or is this not advisable?

I'm leaning toward the newer A/S Premier, but still on the fence. Thoughts?

 

[DaveK]

Besides my post about the Michelin tires, I found some information about the Goodyear tires (Assurance ComforTred Touring), and they also seem like good tires. I'm confused. Need something this weekend before I take my daughter back to college Sunday evening.

Are Goodyear tires as good as Michelin tires?

Are they worth considering?

 

[KitaCam]

There are many threads here and on other websites that have already addressed mounting speed rated tires other than what your car is spec'd for and whether that is recommended, let alone "authorized"....

...meaning:
1. will it void your warranty? and
2. will any retail store even mount, let alone sell you tires rated lower than OEM...?

The answers may require that you rethink this option....and...

THIS:
"The tire leaks air slowly. Takes about 3 or 4 weeks to drop from around 33 lbs down to about 26 lbs where the TPMS indicates a low tire pressure. "

This suggests you've been running around Washington state with a nail in your tire....for weeks!

You shouldn't be running around with a nail in your tire...that's just plain dangerous! and suggests that ANY any advice/suggestions about tires may not be worth much to you as you may already have made up your mind to ignore possible safety issues regarding using lower rated tires on your car...

Plug that tire! Please! There are other people on the road whose life depends on that...

 

[FordFocus]

I would go with four michelin premier AS's because if you buy the primacy now and you ruin one of them you may not be able to buy another one down the road because they're being replaced by the premiere. also I would definitely go with the michelin over the good year.

 

[Volvohead]

Do let me know how your Premiers hold up. We reluctantly passed on them this time.

Unless Michelin finally broke the classic compromise between compound wear and stickiness, I was concerned it might be another Pilot-like tire -- spectacularly best-in-class for too short a time. Those "worn" new sipes start showing up after just 3/32 into it.

You are very right about the MXV4. Great tire, but there may not be a spare in 2 years if you need one.