2014 Subaru Forester XT - Factory Fill

[Naito]

My first UOA. UOA was performed by Wearcheck on my factory fill.

Driving habits are mostly 160km highways on weekends, and 40km on traffic jammed rural highways during weekdays. This was the very first oil change for car, sample was taken by technicians at dealership. Normally I change my own oil but I was getting some other work done at the same time so I asked them to take it.

Not sure HOW they're detecting diesel in there!! Filled with Petro Canada 94 octane (10% ethanol) for first couple fills, then switched to Shell 91 (0 ethanol) for all subsequent fills.

Quote:

Recommendations:
We advise that you check the fuel injection system and ensure that you are using the correct fuel type. We advise that you check the air filter, air induction system, and any areas where dirt may enter the component. Oil and filter change at the time of sampling has been noted. We recommend an early resample to monitor this condition.
Code:


Time on Unit 60days

Time on Oil 60days

Time on Filter 60days

Mileage: 4950km


Contamination:
There is a high amount of fuel present in the oil. Gas Chromatography testing indicates that the fuel dilution is diesel fuel. There is a moderate concentration of dirt present in the oil. Tests confirm the presence of fuel in the oil.
Code:


Cur Abn

Silicon 292 30

Potassium 0.8 20

Sodium 5.4 80

Fuel (%) 8.6 4.0

Glycol --- 0.06

Water (%)
Soot (%) 0 ---

Sulfation (%) 65 100

Nitration (%) 46 100


Wear:
All component wear rates are normal.
Code:


Cur Abn

Iron 35 150

Nickel 0.2 5

Chromium 0.6 20

Titanium 0.1 --

Copper 125 155

Aluminum 8.4 40

Tin 2.4 10

Lead 4.6 50

Silver 0.0 2


Oil Condition:
Oil Type: FACTORY FILL
Viscosity of sample indicates oil is within SAE 5W20 range, advise investigate. The oil is no longer serviceable due to the presence of contaminants.
Code:


Cur Base

Boron 193

Barium 9.3

Calcium 1653

Magnesium 12

Molybdenum 622

Sodium 5.4

Phosphorus 627

Sulfur 2368

Zinc 713

Visc 40C(cSt) 30.5

Visc 100C(cSt) 6.7

VI 186

Oxidation(%) 69



Comments and thoughts please!

 

[901Memphis]

Pretty hard to imagine that fuel could be that high on such a short run without some problem. I would re-sample it yourself and see if it was an error. With someone else sampling the oil there could be a lot of room for accidents.

Wear actually looks pretty great for a FF. 600+ PPM Moly, must be special break in oil!

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Do you regularly idle the car for more than a min to warm it?
Does not the turbo F series use 5w30 or is the 2L spec for a 20 now? Subies are known to run the previous EJ turbo very rich.

The 2.0T is Direct injection and VVT?

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Do you regularly idle the car for more than a min to warm it?
Does not the turbo F series use 5w30 or is the 2L spec for a 20 now? Subies are known to run the previous EJ turbo very rich.

The 2.0T is Direct injection and VVT?


Regularly no, but there were definitely a couple instances where I was idling for maybe 10 mins waiting for a train to pass. Never idling long for warmup, unless maybe the wife is doing it, but I don't think so. The drive to the dealership was rather spirited as well, probably 20mins rural highway, so there wasn't any recent extended idling before the sample was taken. We do take some regular short trips on the weekends to the grocery store that are
Manual states 5w30 synth for the FA20dit, and yes it's direct injection and variable timing. I think only the FB25 in the non-turbo Forester is 5w20.

 

[gathermewool]

I've been busy and haven't had the chance to send out my FF sample yet. Seeing this, maybe I will asap...

I changed my FF at 3912 miles, left the factory Tokyo Roki filter installed, filled with Mag1/RT6 5W-40 mix.

According to Subaru, the FF is not a special break-in. Furthermore, it does NOT seem prudent to leave the FF in for the entire 7,500 mile interval. Heck, I wouldn't run any RC oil to 7,500 miles in this engine unless I had some good UOA data to back that up.

The Tokyo Roki is definitely capable of going the whole 7,500 miles (and then some, IMO,) so I saw only benefits to leaving it installed for this next interval.)

I used 5W-40 for two reasons, only one of them good:

1. I had it leftover in my stash.
2. This engine will boost to 10# at relatively low RPM (usually, the CVT will keep rev's at just over 2k, even when at half+ boost.) I don't plan on continuing with the thicker oil, but figured it wouldn't hurt.

OP,

Have you had any hard-starting issues? I've had half a dozen...

 

[Naito]

I had hard-start issues about once a week for the first month and a half, seeming to get reduced as the weather warmed up.

Reason I did the oil change at the dealership was actually to get a new flash package for the ECU regarding the hard-start issues. I'd been posting on my local board and the SubaruForester.org forums, but if you don't find them there the service pack code was 2611AW065. It's apparently known to Subaru Canada dealerships now, but not sure if it's applicable elsewhere. No hard starts since, but weather has been warming up quite a bit.

It certainly SEEMS like it's a break-in oil because of the high moly, no? (this is my first time looking at an oil analysis, any guesses of mine are only due to extended lurking here, I have ZERO experience with UOAs other than this)

Dealership changed the oil with more Subaru Synth, which I was told by the parts guy is US-made Idemitsu 5w30 Synthetic. He was willing to sell me jugs of them, and I may pick one up just so you guys can take a look and tell me what it actually is.

 

[LoneRanger]

Unreliabletesting if they claim diesel fuel dilution in a gasoline engine. I'd say the credibility of the entire report is suspect. I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe use a more reputable lab next time.

 

[gathermewool]

From what I've read on SF.org, the reflash is only available to you, our brothers to the north. IRRC, haven't some been having issues, even after the reflash (and the other fix, the cam position sensor shimming)?

The fact that the oil appears to be different than the Subaru Synthetic they use for subsequent oil changes would lead me to believe its special, as well; however, the email I received says that it is not special, and that changing early is ok. Unless this engine also likes a lighter oil for break-in (especially when combined with diluted fuel,) I can't see any reason to keep this oil in there for any longer than necessary, replacing it with something a little stouter being a more prudent course of action.

That's not to say that the oil isn't special and that the Subaru responder isn't full of poo, but it doesn't seem that way to me. It may not even matter, really.

I just checked my oil, and after 2k miles on the second fill, the oil is very, very dark, with a grayish tinge to it. I've seen some dark oil in my previous STI, but never this soon. Very interesting...

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Unreliabletesting if they claim diesel fuel dilution in a gasoline engine. I'd say the credibility of the entire report is suspect. I wouldn't worry about it. Maybe use a more reputable lab next time.


I kinda hope that's the case. The moly numbers seem to jive with what others have been seeing from the FF on this car, and I expected some fuel dilution but not that much!

I thought Wearcheck was considered one of the reputable labs. The other one that's accessible to me would be Amsoil. I know most of the ones from here are from Blackstone, but it costs a bit more to send to them from Canada. Suggestions?

I have two more sample kits from Wearcheck, should I do another sample at the next oil change, or should I wait and skip a couple OCs first? Should I do it at a different lab?

 

[Darwin1138]

They are detecting diesel fuel and silicon because they are in the sample; you need to see how they got there and not blame the lab and dismiss the results.

I think the most probable explanation is that the sample was contaminated by the tech that took it because the wear numbers are too low for that kind of contamination.

Also the silicon could be explained by leftovers from the casting process or sealants of the oil pan.

And the diesel could be there if they used some sort of engine flush, (which is basically diesel fuel) and took the sample after it was poured in the car.

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: Darwin1138
They are detecting diesel fuel and silicon because they are in the sample; you need to see how they got there and not blame the lab and dismiss the results.

I think the most probable explanation is that the sample was contaminated by the tech that took it because the wear numbers are too low for that kind of contamination.

Also the silicon could be explained by leftovers from the casting process or sealants of the oil pan.

And the diesel could be there if they used some sort of engine flush, (which is basically diesel fuel) and took the sample after it was poured in the car.


thanks, that does make sense. I wonder if the tech pulled the sample out of the drain pan or something maybe?

So do you suggest I do another oil sample (taken myself!) at my next OC then? I had originally planned to skip a couple.

 

[Rob_Roy]

Originally Posted By: Darwin1138
They are detecting diesel fuel and silicon because they are in the sample; you need to see how they got there and not blame the lab and dismiss the results.

I think the most probable explanation is that the sample was contaminated by the tech that took it because the wear numbers are too low for that kind of contamination.


I agree. I have been using Wearcheck for years and been very pleased with their service. I highly doubt there was diesel in the Subaru crankcase, and I doubt they mixed up your sample with another that happened to be SAE 20 and also contain diesel fuel. Take your own sample next time.

 

[Naito]

Comparing with other oil analysis reports that I found here:
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f207/fa20dit-oil-analysis-thread-264098/

It'd seem that the only number that seems REALLY off is my fuel dilution (and the TYPE of fuel of course), which might be best explained by poor sampling method? The rest of the numbers don't seem too far off, no?

 

[901Memphis]

Yes Definitely sample yourself next time to make sure this doesn't cause any issues before your warranty is up. Hopefully it was a sampling issue.

 

[Darwin1138]

After reading the other analysis in the link you posted, the silicon appears to be normal for this engine, the only thing out of place is the diesel.

Ask the dealership if they use any type of engine flush or perform an "internal cleaning" when they change the oil. As this types of additives are very similar to diesel, or in many cases are just diesel fuel in a fancy bottle.

It could be plausible because if your engine has an oil capacity of 5.3 quarts (5 liters) and you add a 16 ounce (473ml) bottle of engine flush like this one you get a 9.4% dilution, which is in the ballpark of your results.

If they didn't use any flush, then, sample contamination is your best bet. Do the analysis at the next oil change so you can establish a trend to extend your oil change, if this sample was not contaminated I would say that you could extend your oil change to at least 10,000 kms. but it will be better to have more compelling evidence before extending the OCI.

 

[bluesubie]

No, no, no! You add gas behind the door near the right rear wheel, not under the hood!

gathermewool - Contact Idemitsu Lubricants America Corp about Subaru break-in oil. Why are you asking a company about oil that tells you that it's fine to replenish with "5W-40 conventional"?

The Subaru 5W-30 FF's from about six months ago and older always showed 1,000+ ppm's of ZDDP so that was cleary not the same as dealer service fill. Maybe now they are using a regular oil as FF and the moly is from assembly lube, and some in the oil for fuel economy.

Anyway, I think this was just a sampling fail rather than a true problem. BUT, the few uoa's posted on the Forester board all show high-ish fuel so even if this was a sampling error, the fuel contamination doesn't look so good in these engines so far.

Like gpshumway mentioned to me on nasioc, maybe Subaru/FHI should have gone with Toyota's DI.

Here are the other fuel % from the Forester board. The first three are Blackstone.

2.8 at 4,230 miles
Trace at 3,000 miles
2.0 at 3,000 miles
1.3 at 1,760 miles
And 8.6 at 4,950 km's

Some of this could be from winter idling, and I'm hoping this is the case instead of it being the norm, although it's worth noting that effective with the 2015 model year, Subaru of America has cut back the normal service interval on all models to 6,000 miles maximum, down from 7,500 miles. IIRC, Subaru Canada always goes by the severe interval for all models.

-Dennis

P.S. - A spirited drive right before taking the sample could also be a reason for fuel dilution.

 

[bluesubie]

^ On the other 2.0DIT Forester uoa's I should' ve said the first four are Blackstone.

And don't trust anyone else to take your sample. There was a uoa posted here several years ago on a sample that was captured in a Chinese food take out container. It showed very high sodium.

 

[Naito]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
^ On the other 2.0DIT Forester uoa's I should' ve said the first four are Blackstone.

And don't trust anyone else to take your sample. There was a uoa posted here several years ago on a sample that was captured in a Chinese food take out container. It showed very high sodium.

ROFL

I'm going to contact the dealership again today see if I can talk to the guy who took my sample and ask how he did it. I've been asking around a couple different forums now and I think the consensus is that everything looks good except for the fuel dilution and diesel detection, so odds are it really is just bad sampling method. Too bad though, because I really wanted to see if my fuel dilution numbers matched up with the other reports I'd seen.

Will update.

 

[Naito]

Got in touch with my dealership and with the tech at Wearcheck that did my analysis.
Dealership swears that the sample was taken mid-fill by a tech with clean gloves, will be sending my report to the Subaru tech-line for comments.

Wearcheck sent me the actual chromatogram from their gas chromatographer from my original sample, attached here. He suggests that the last gas station I was at may have had some diesel contamination in their tanks. He says he's going to rerun the test to confirm. Talk about good service =)

Would love comments from someone who knows how to read these things, it's fascinating to me but I have no idea what I'm looking at =p

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Ive gotten diesel contaminated gasoline up here out of "regular gasoline" pumps at a Gulf Station in Plasistow, NH.
Once bitten, Now, I'll pump 1/2 gal. and sniff the pump nozzle before completely dispensing - this get lots of looks.

scenario#1
Tanker Trucker Guy has 100 gal of HHO#2 or Diesel "leftover" now he has to make a gasoline run up to the port. In goes the gas on top of the #2.

That would explain your fuel dilution as the engines would go into retard timing and rich to cover any knock tendencies.

Did the car run doggy for a while? And you had the hard start issue!
Things are adding up, Holmes