Turbo Civic Owner With Questions!

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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I would consider the M1 0w40 superior to the T6. It gets part of this victory due to its huge list of certifications that T6 doesn't have. I would just get whatever one you can find cheaper, since you are changing it so soon, the oil has plenty of additive left you just want to keep your wear metals washed out like your already doing.

Is that an oil cotton gauze K&N filter? Those things let quite a bit of abrasive silicone into the engine. If you need the extra air flow to keep your horsepower that a different story, but maybe look into a higher efficiency filter like an AEM Dryflow.




Again with this silicone. Dude. It's not silicone. It's silica as in sand.
Silicone comes in tubes to seal things like windows and doors.
If I had a used oil analysis come back with silicone in it I'd be asking who sabotaged the engine.

Silica.


crackmeup2.gif
01.gif


People seriously before posting anything,do your research to what your posting. It's getting bad around here,really bad.
 
Internally the engine is bone stock, that is the beauty of the K's, I have the worst of the worst K and I'm just about as equal with power capability as the best b series motors (stock for stock), on my setup now (ill post pics when I log on on my computer) with my turbonetics t04e .63 a/r I'm pushing just over 11psi to get to that point. And my setup is the limiting factor here, not my motor choice, the log manifold will hurt the engine before the engine can make any beneficial power on it anyway, but if I were to swap in say a k20a2 or k20z1 with a simple set of head studs, the sky is the limit. People make 600-700whp stock block/stock cams on the right turbo setups on e85 fueling, a tuner local to me, his stock motor K is pumping out 727whp from a stock internal Z1, and has been for 2 years now
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I would consider the M1 0w40 superior to the T6. It gets part of this victory due to its huge list of certifications that T6 doesn't have. I would just get whatever one you can find cheaper, since you are changing it so soon, the oil has plenty of additive left you just want to keep your wear metals washed out like your already doing.

Is that an oil cotton gauze K&N filter? Those things let quite a bit of abrasive silicone into the engine. If you need the extra air flow to keep your horsepower that a different story, but maybe look into a higher efficiency filter like an AEM Dryflow.




Again with this silicone. Dude. It's not silicone. It's silica as in sand.
Silicone comes in tubes to seal things like windows and doors.
If I had a used oil analysis come back with silicone in it I'd be asking who sabotaged the engine.

Silica.



I know what it is. My phone won't let me post Silicon without auto correcting to silicone. I often do all my posting from my phone which can be challenging at times. Often I just let my typos go.

Why don't you guys go pick on one of the Mobile 1 threads?
 
I don't think too many of these fellas have followed/kept up with the Honda world of recent... 350whp from a turbo'd civic is honestly nothing these days!

The K series motors are simply awesome, another of Honda's greats no doubt. Heck, for comparison sake I have a built/all forged 84mm B18 type R motor in my Civic hatch, it is well over 200whp naturally aspirated! 100hp/liter is nothing for a honda especially when boosted.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
3x's the oem hp? Sounds optimistic to me.

Getting that power down on a FWD platform is like catching an ice cube on a frozen Lake ha ha.

If you have had good luck with the T6 why change?

Instead why don't you take a oil sample and see where you stand in terms of wear metals and how the engine oil is holding up.

Make sure you do a TBN on your sample and report back to us.

Jeff


Dude.
Haven't you learned anything since you've been here.
A 30 dollar used oil analysis isn't going to tell you squat about engine wear. Absolutely nothing.
It will tell you if the oil is still serviceable and that's it.
Unless you are using the data to establish trends,then if anomalies pop up they can be investigated however to do just 1 and expect to learn about wear is absurd.
I would have thought you'd have learned this by now for all the time you spend here.

OP

If you work for Chrysler can you get a deal on the SRT ULTRA. if you can why not give that a shot. If your paying full price I wouldn't bother. Not when M1 0w-40 can be had for 26 bucks a jug.
And once a month oil changes are absurd. Just cause the oils black doesn't mean anything. You're throwing money and resources away and gaining nothing.
Because you've got a turbo I'd use either a euro spec oil or one that meets the Honda turbo spec. Any of them would work great.
An hdeo like your already using is good too. They're made for turbo diesels so no question about them meting appropriate for your application.


Chevy do you have experience with Turbo Charged cars and wear of turbo journals? I do. YES THEY SHOW UP IN UOA's.

So SLOW YOUR ROLE DUDE!!

Jeff
 
The point of 4 cylinder cars making sick HP isn't a big thing to me. Its what platform you choose to harness that power. To me? now its just me, why make 500whp in a FWD platform when you cant get the power to the ground. No limited slip in the world could help a FWD harness that much WHP. Its just ridiculous.

I guess I see things from not only a performance prospective but a practical prospective.

On a track like lets say Streets of Willows these cars would be slower than a stock Miata. haha.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
3x's the oem hp? Sounds optimistic to me.

Getting that power down on a FWD platform is like catching an ice cube on a frozen Lake ha ha.

If you have had good luck with the T6 why change?

Instead why don't you take a oil sample and see where you stand in terms of wear metals and how the engine oil is holding up.

Make sure you do a TBN on your sample and report back to us.

Jeff


Dude.
Haven't you learned anything since you've been here.
A 30 dollar used oil analysis isn't going to tell you squat about engine wear. Absolutely nothing.
It will tell you if the oil is still serviceable and that's it.
Unless you are using the data to establish trends,then if anomalies pop up they can be investigated however to do just 1 and expect to learn about wear is absurd.
I would have thought you'd have learned this by now for all the time you spend here.

OP

If you work for Chrysler can you get a deal on the SRT ULTRA. if you can why not give that a shot. If your paying full price I wouldn't bother. Not when M1 0w-40 can be had for 26 bucks a jug.
And once a month oil changes are absurd. Just cause the oils black doesn't mean anything. You're throwing money and resources away and gaining nothing.
Because you've got a turbo I'd use either a euro spec oil or one that meets the Honda turbo spec. Any of them would work great.
An hdeo like your already using is good too. They're made for turbo diesels so no question about them meting appropriate for your application.


Responses like this shows the direction this site is going.......

Jeff
 
I see no reason M1 0W40 wouldn't be an excellent choice. Apples go oranges but it has done an amazing job in our Hemi and one 440. Hemi is around 1450 hp at the wheels.
 
32.gif


The Reason why I am asking the OP questions about his modifications is that he is giving me some cues from his original post that makes me think something is up.

Though I am not a K20A3 guru, I do have experience turbo charging N/A motors. Primarily B Series Honda Motors.

The K Series is pretty stout, but the OP is claiming 350whp. To achieve this type of power, in this particular engine it would require some serious mods, knowing the mods will help us, help him.

OP also claims he has been running this HP figure for many thousands of miles. Also a red flag. Most K20 builds I know running an OEM block run low boost of around 6-8lbs and this would give reliability but would give no where near 350whp that the OP is claiming. So he must have a built bottom end and possibly a built top end, running a decent sized turbo as well.

OP states that his oil turns Black after short intervals. Though this is not much to be of concern, it can be another red flag. If the oil is turning black that fast, ESPECIALLY using T6 of whcih is a High Detergant oil is telling me (a) that the engine is running WAY too rich, or (b) a possible head gasket issue.

Though Chevy feels that you cannot tell "Wear" on an engine through a UOA, I think he is incorrect. Yes a UOA will not tell you exactly, BUT it will raise red flags. If Copper levels are high, Iron is high, Nickel is high, if Flash point is VERY low if HTHS is low, There are MANY factors in a UOA that can show something is wearing incorrectly or that something in the engine is not working properly. That is what I was trying to say, but Chevy seems to dissagree with. So I will leave it at that.

UOA's for the OP is a start. Yes you need several to find a pattern, that is a no brainier, but if the OP does a UOA now and his Copper levels are like 50, you know something is wrong, if the Flash Point is 275F or something we know there is some serious fuel dilution going on there. If there is Water in the oil??? Head Gasket issues. I can go on and on.

So OP, First, Give us your supporting mods, post up a Dyno sheet so I can see your AFR's and your Boost Levels at what RPM's, and use the T6 for a couple more oil changes to check for any variances. Report back to us with a UOA, and some info.

Hope this all makes sense to the OP.

Jeff
 
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Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.

The comment saying he's changing the oil too soon I disagree with. His oil is blackish at 2200 miles and that means a lot of insolubles in the oil which leads to increased engine wear. Changing the oil in that motor as soon as it gets too dark is the right thing to do. Boosting increases blow-by significantly and is the reason your oil is getting dark so quickly.
 
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.


It's not fishy at all, I agree, but I know there's more to the story, and why you guys never follow the impressive HP # with the torque
lol.gif


I've built and tuned VTEC Honda engines, I know- without a doubt that you're probably not breaking 200ft/lbs, and if you are, barely. K's, b's or any other VTEC engine react no differently or specially than any given non-VTEC, non-Honda engine (commonly seen in bikes) with a wild cam, and maybe a short runner IM. Slap a turbo on that (any given) high-cam NA engine and the powerband will be the same: low peak torque, but multiplied by an extended RPM range resulting in 'surprising' WHP figures. It's all relative
 
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.

The comment saying he's changing the oil too soon I disagree with. His oil is blackish at 2200 miles and that means a lot of insolubles in the oil which leads to increased engine wear. Changing the oil in that motor as soon as it gets too dark is the right thing to do. Boosting increases blow-by significantly and is the reason your oil is getting dark so quickly.


So your saying a K20 with a basic turbo set up running 9psi makes over 300whp? There is ALLOT more involved then just that.

I would like to see a list of parts that were installed, and a dyno sheet please for me to believe this.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.


It's not fishy at all, I agree, but I know there's more to the story, and why you guys never follow the impressive HP # with the torque
lol.gif


I've built and tuned VTEC Honda engines, I know- without a doubt that you're probably not breaking 200ft/lbs, and if you are, barely. K's, b's or any other VTEC engine react no differently or specially than any given non-VTEC, non-Honda engine (commonly seen in bikes) with a wild cam, and maybe a short runner IM. Slap a turbo on that (any given) high-cam NA engine and the powerband will be the same: low peak torque, but multiplied by an extended RPM range resulting in 'surprising' WHP figures. It's all relative


What did OP say he was running? 240 torque? He followed his HP with torque.

That's with the K20 motor. If he had the K24, he'd have about 280 torque.

EDIT: He said 280tq... that does seem a little optimistic but he is well over 200tq regardless
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.

The comment saying he's changing the oil too soon I disagree with. His oil is blackish at 2200 miles and that means a lot of insolubles in the oil which leads to increased engine wear. Changing the oil in that motor as soon as it gets too dark is the right thing to do. Boosting increases blow-by significantly and is the reason your oil is getting dark so quickly.


So your saying a K20 with a basic turbo set up running 9psi makes over 300whp? There is ALLOT more involved then just that.

I would like to see a list of parts that were installed, and a dyno sheet please for me to believe this.

Jeff


Just head over to the 8thgencivic.com or 9thgencivic.com forums. They are everywhere.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So your saying a K20 with a basic turbo set up running 9psi makes over 300whp? There is ALLOT more involved then just that.

I would like to see a list of parts that were installed, and a dyno sheet please for me to believe this.

Jeff


Dyno queens anyway.

Dyno operators have figured out their clientele and learned how to give them the huge numbers they want. Dynos are notoriously inaccurate and inconsistent, not good for much unless extremely closely dissected...
 
An interesting alternative is eDyno like the service offered at http://vittuned.com/

These are completely dependent on the additional info the user supplies though besides the datalog... and if they went down a hill or not lol
 
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: Iketh
Just wanted to say the K20 is stock ~170whp. 9psi results in ~310whp. It's that easy to get over 300 hp with these motors and this has been the norm since K's were introduced. There's nothing fishy about it.


It's not fishy at all, I agree, but I know there's more to the story, and why you guys never follow the impressive HP # with the torque
lol.gif


I've built and tuned VTEC Honda engines, I know- without a doubt that you're probably not breaking 200ft/lbs, and if you are, barely. K's, b's or any other VTEC engine react no differently or specially than any given non-VTEC, non-Honda engine (commonly seen in bikes) with a wild cam, and maybe a short runner IM. Slap a turbo on that (any given) high-cam NA engine and the powerband will be the same: low peak torque, but multiplied by an extended RPM range resulting in 'surprising' WHP figures. It's all relative


What did OP say he was running? 240 torque? He followed his HP with torque.

That's with the K20 motor. If he had the K24, he'd have about 280 torque.

EDIT: He said 280tq... that does seem a little optimistic but he is well over 200tq regardless


Here's a typical boosted K20
k20a3turbo0xd.png


the OP's 280ft/lbs is going to need to be way higher in the RPM range than this guy's 250ish on a gt32 57 trim, in order to amount to 500+WHP. that's going to need a massive turbo and gigantic cams to flow that much torques-worth at those RPMs with that kind of pressure........ which is going to require a dyno chart and mods list posted...... Time to gather the missing data

http://www.metaris.com/hp-relations.php
Plug your own numbers in and see how WHP figures play out
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
32.gif


The Reason why I am asking the OP questions about his modifications is that he is giving me some cues from his original post that makes me think something is up.

Though I am not a K20A3 guru, I do have experience turbo charging N/A motors. Primarily B Series Honda Motors.

The K Series is pretty stout, but the OP is claiming 350whp. To achieve this type of power, in this particular engine it would require some serious mods, knowing the mods will help us, help him.

OP also claims he has been running this HP figure for many thousands of miles. Also a red flag. Most K20 builds I know running an OEM block run low boost of around 6-8lbs and this would give reliability but would give no where near 350whp that the OP is claiming. So he must have a built bottom end and possibly a built top end, running a decent sized turbo as well.

OP states that his oil turns Black after short intervals. Though this is not much to be of concern, it can be another red flag. If the oil is turning black that fast, ESPECIALLY using T6 of whcih is a High Detergant oil is telling me (a) that the engine is running WAY too rich, or (b) a possible head gasket issue.

Though Chevy feels that you cannot tell "Wear" on an engine through a UOA, I think he is incorrect. Yes a UOA will not tell you exactly, BUT it will raise red flags. If Copper levels are high, Iron is high, Nickel is high, if Flash point is VERY low if HTHS is low, There are MANY factors in a UOA that can show something is wearing incorrectly or that something in the engine is not working properly. That is what I was trying to say, but Chevy seems to dissagree with. So I will leave it at that.

UOA's for the OP is a start. Yes you need several to find a pattern, that is a no brainier, but if the OP does a UOA now and his Copper levels are like 50, you know something is wrong, if the Flash Point is 275F or something we know there is some serious fuel dilution going on there. If there is Water in the oil??? Head Gasket issues. I can go on and on.

So OP, First, Give us your supporting mods, post up a Dyno sheet so I can see your AFR's and your Boost Levels at what RPM's, and use the T6 for a couple more oil changes to check for any variances. Report back to us with a UOA, and some info.

Hope this all makes sense to the OP.

Jeff



I have merely applied what I've learned here at bitog. If you've got a problem with it I suggest reading Doug Hillary's posts since he's an expert,and over the past 40 years in the industry has the experience to know what a 40 dollar used oil analysis is capable of.
Just because your an enthusiast doesn't mean you know anything about how to read a used oil analysis.
I suggest you read posts from actual experts,then decide.
When I first became a member here I too thought wear could be measured in a used oil analysis,however a 40 dollar used oil analysis doesn't see particulate size,only concentration,and therefore is NOT an accurate measure of wear.
Please if you can read Doug Hillary's posts,paying special attention to his million mile Diesel engines to which the used oil analysis saw upwards of 200ppm iron ore oil change interval yet at tear down the engine was mic'd and compared to the new measurements and no appreciable wear was measured,and the engine was reassembled using the same parts.
Educate yourself instead of posting what you think,because in this instance you're wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
32.gif


The Reason why I am asking the OP questions about his modifications is that he is giving me some cues from his original post that makes me think something is up.

Though I am not a K20A3 guru, I do have experience turbo charging N/A motors. Primarily B Series Honda Motors.

The K Series is pretty stout, but the OP is claiming 350whp. To achieve this type of power, in this particular engine it would require some serious mods, knowing the mods will help us, help him.

OP also claims he has been running this HP figure for many thousands of miles. Also a red flag. Most K20 builds I know running an OEM block run low boost of around 6-8lbs and this would give reliability but would give no where near 350whp that the OP is claiming. So he must have a built bottom end and possibly a built top end, running a decent sized turbo as well.

OP states that his oil turns Black after short intervals. Though this is not much to be of concern, it can be another red flag. If the oil is turning black that fast, ESPECIALLY using T6 of whcih is a High Detergant oil is telling me (a) that the engine is running WAY too rich, or (b) a possible head gasket issue.

Though Chevy feels that you cannot tell "Wear" on an engine through a UOA, I think he is incorrect. Yes a UOA will not tell you exactly, BUT it will raise red flags. If Copper levels are high, Iron is high, Nickel is high, if Flash point is VERY low if HTHS is low, There are MANY factors in a UOA that can show something is wearing incorrectly or that something in the engine is not working properly. That is what I was trying to say, but Chevy seems to dissagree with. So I will leave it at that.

UOA's for the OP is a start. Yes you need several to find a pattern, that is a no brainier, but if the OP does a UOA now and his Copper levels are like 50, you know something is wrong, if the Flash Point is 275F or something we know there is some serious fuel dilution going on there. If there is Water in the oil??? Head Gasket issues. I can go on and on.

So OP, First, Give us your supporting mods, post up a Dyno sheet so I can see your AFR's and your Boost Levels at what RPM's, and use the T6 for a couple more oil changes to check for any variances. Report back to us with a UOA, and some info.

Hope this all makes sense to the OP.

Jeff



I have merely applied what I've learned here at bitog. If you've got a problem with it I suggest reading Doug Hillary's posts since he's an expert,and over the past 40 years in the industry has the experience to know what a 40 dollar used oil analysis is capable of.
Just because your an enthusiast doesn't mean you know anything about how to read a used oil analysis.
I suggest you read posts from actual experts,then decide.
When I first became a member here I too thought wear could be measured in a used oil analysis,however a 40 dollar used oil analysis doesn't see particulate size,only concentration,and therefore is NOT an accurate measure of wear.
Please if you can read Doug Hillary's posts,paying special attention to his million mile Diesel engines to which the used oil analysis saw upwards of 200ppm iron ore oil change interval yet at tear down the engine was mic'd and compared to the new measurements and no appreciable wear was measured,and the engine was reassembled using the same parts.
Educate yourself instead of posting what you think,because in this instance you're wrong.


This is another time we keep butting heads. Not sure why that is?

Have I ever said I was an expert? I'm just trying to help.

What I do have is over 20 yrs experience modifying asian cars and have countless hours of track experience.

I never claimed to be an expert at anything. Yet you keep giving the impression I am? Or??

So I will leave this post alone. I call [censored] on the dyno numbers on these K20 motors. The ones I know are heavily modified to make these numbers reliably. So without a mod list ecu software info or data logs WITH uoa's I can't help.

If you provide this info feel free to pm me.

Otherwise I'm out.

Jeff
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
32.gif


The Reason why I am asking the OP questions about his modifications is that he is giving me some cues from his original post that makes me think something is up.

Though I am not a K20A3 guru, I do have experience turbo charging N/A motors. Primarily B Series Honda Motors.

The K Series is pretty stout, but the OP is claiming 350whp. To achieve this type of power, in this particular engine it would require some serious mods, knowing the mods will help us, help him.

OP also claims he has been running this HP figure for many thousands of miles. Also a red flag. Most K20 builds I know running an OEM block run low boost of around 6-8lbs and this would give reliability but would give no where near 350whp that the OP is claiming. So he must have a built bottom end and possibly a built top end, running a decent sized turbo as well.

OP states that his oil turns Black after short intervals. Though this is not much to be of concern, it can be another red flag. If the oil is turning black that fast, ESPECIALLY using T6 of whcih is a High Detergant oil is telling me (a) that the engine is running WAY too rich, or (b) a possible head gasket issue.

Though Chevy feels that you cannot tell "Wear" on an engine through a UOA, I think he is incorrect. Yes a UOA will not tell you exactly, BUT it will raise red flags. If Copper levels are high, Iron is high, Nickel is high, if Flash point is VERY low if HTHS is low, There are MANY factors in a UOA that can show something is wearing incorrectly or that something in the engine is not working properly. That is what I was trying to say, but Chevy seems to dissagree with. So I will leave it at that.

UOA's for the OP is a start. Yes you need several to find a pattern, that is a no brainier, but if the OP does a UOA now and his Copper levels are like 50, you know something is wrong, if the Flash Point is 275F or something we know there is some serious fuel dilution going on there. If there is Water in the oil??? Head Gasket issues. I can go on and on.

So OP, First, Give us your supporting mods, post up a Dyno sheet so I can see your AFR's and your Boost Levels at what RPM's, and use the T6 for a couple more oil changes to check for any variances. Report back to us with a UOA, and some info.

Hope this all makes sense to the OP.

Jeff



I have merely applied what I've learned here at bitog. If you've got a problem with it I suggest reading Doug Hillary's posts since he's an expert,and over the past 40 years in the industry has the experience to know what a 40 dollar used oil analysis is capable of.
Just because your an enthusiast doesn't mean you know anything about how to read a used oil analysis.
I suggest you read posts from actual experts,then decide.
When I first became a member here I too thought wear could be measured in a used oil analysis,however a 40 dollar used oil analysis doesn't see particulate size,only concentration,and therefore is NOT an accurate measure of wear.
Please if you can read Doug Hillary's posts,paying special attention to his million mile Diesel engines to which the used oil analysis saw upwards of 200ppm iron ore oil change interval yet at tear down the engine was mic'd and compared to the new measurements and no appreciable wear was measured,and the engine was reassembled using the same parts.
Educate yourself instead of posting what you think,because in this instance you're wrong.


This is another time we keep butting heads. Not sure why that is?

Have I ever said I was an expert? I'm just trying to help.

What I do have is over 20 yrs experience modifying asian cars and have countless hours of track experience.

I never claimed to be an expert at anything. Yet you keep giving the impression I am? Or??

So I will leave this post alone. I call [censored] on the dyno numbers on these K20 motors. The ones I know are heavily modified to make these numbers reliably. So without a mod list ecu software info or data logs WITH uoa's I can't help.

If you provide this info feel free to pm me.

Otherwise I'm out.

Jeff


This should ruffle your feathers even more. Apparently K24 motors can take 700whp stock internals.
 
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