Black Death - Auto Trans Style

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Just thought I'd post a photo of what happens when a clutch pack decides to burn up (RWD GM 4L60E). Not unlike when your A/C compressor blows.

This stuff is EVERYWHERE.

 
That was "normal" looking back in the mechanical transmission days. You'd actually have piles of material on the bottom. You can lose a lot of clutch material before the trans is done.
 
Clutch lining friction material should stay contained within the bellhousing, where the flywheel, driven plate and pressure plate are.

The gearbox fluid should not see any contamination at all save the occasional small metal shavings if you can't drive smoothly/beat on it at autocross etc..

I drain and refill my gear oil with each clutch change and it always comes out as golden as it went in.. the reason being that the input shaft, lay shaft and output shaft are in a SEALED environment - the only way friction material should get in there is if the seal around the input shaft is worn, not only would this allow dust/contaminants in, it would allow gear oil out, and all over your clutch, necessitating replacement.

Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?
 
Originally Posted By: Olas
Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?


OP stated that the GB was a 4L60E...Automatic.
 
Originally Posted By: Olas
Clutch lining friction material should stay contained within the bellhousing, where the flywheel, driven plate and pressure plate are.

The gearbox fluid should not see any contamination at all save the occasional small metal shavings if you can't drive smoothly/beat on it at autocross etc..

I drain and refill my gear oil with each clutch change and it always comes out as golden as it went in.. the reason being that the input shaft, lay shaft and output shaft are in a SEALED environment - the only way friction material should get in there is if the seal around the input shaft is worn, not only would this allow dust/contaminants in, it would allow gear oil out, and all over your clutch, necessitating replacement.

Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?

Are you familiar with how an automatic transmission works? There are clutch packs inside the transmission.
 
I'd like to know the mileage on the vehicle, conditions it was used under, and how it was maintained.
 
I think some fancy euro auto transmissions use a split design for the gears so they can have their own gear oil, and not share the ATF.
 
Lucky it's a 4L60 since there are a billion of them everywhere and a custom performance rebuild can be had for $1300. OP if you do the rebuild don't forget a hi performance sunshell.
 
What you see there is the overheated fluid. My guess for the cause of the overheating is the converter not locking up completely, possibly caused by leakage of the apply valve.
 
Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
What you see there is the overheated fluid. My guess for the cause of the overheating is the converter not locking up completely, possibly caused by leakage of the apply valve.


I would come to the same conclusion, but I'm no expert on GM. Is/was the tranny slipping?
 
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: Olas
Clutch lining friction material should stay contained within the bellhousing, where the flywheel, driven plate and pressure plate are.

The gearbox fluid should not see any contamination at all save the occasional small metal shavings if you can't drive smoothly/beat on it at autocross etc..

I drain and refill my gear oil with each clutch change and it always comes out as golden as it went in.. the reason being that the input shaft, lay shaft and output shaft are in a SEALED environment - the only way friction material should get in there is if the seal around the input shaft is worn, not only would this allow dust/contaminants in, it would allow gear oil out, and all over your clutch, necessitating replacement.

Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?

Are you familiar with how an automatic transmission works? There are clutch packs inside the transmission.


I think he got confused with manual transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: Olas
Clutch lining friction material should stay contained within the bellhousing, where the flywheel, driven plate and pressure plate are.

The gearbox fluid should not see any contamination at all save the occasional small metal shavings if you can't drive smoothly/beat on it at autocross etc..

I drain and refill my gear oil with each clutch change and it always comes out as golden as it went in.. the reason being that the input shaft, lay shaft and output shaft are in a SEALED environment - the only way friction material should get in there is if the seal around the input shaft is worn, not only would this allow dust/contaminants in, it would allow gear oil out, and all over your clutch, necessitating replacement.

Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?

Are you familiar with how an automatic transmission works? There are clutch packs inside the transmission.


I think he got confused with manual transmission.


I'm sure he did
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: Olas
Clutch lining friction material should stay contained within the bellhousing, where the flywheel, driven plate and pressure plate are.

The gearbox fluid should not see any contamination at all save the occasional small metal shavings if you can't drive smoothly/beat on it at autocross etc..

I drain and refill my gear oil with each clutch change and it always comes out as golden as it went in.. the reason being that the input shaft, lay shaft and output shaft are in a SEALED environment - the only way friction material should get in there is if the seal around the input shaft is worn, not only would this allow dust/contaminants in, it would allow gear oil out, and all over your clutch, necessitating replacement.

Can you explain how all that [censored] got into the gear oil?

Are you familiar with how an automatic transmission works? There are clutch packs inside the transmission.


I think he got confused with manual transmission.

I’m sure he did too, but if one is familiar with how an automatic transmission works, you should be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure out this is an automatic. The only way someone would make a post like he did is if he’s not familiar with how an automatic works.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd like to know the mileage on the vehicle, conditions it was used under, and how it was maintained.


Vehicle: 2003 GMC Safari
Mileage: ~131k
Usage: Not severe; no towing
Previous trans service: Pan drop, fluid and filter (every other pan drop); approximately every 30k-40k miles.
Fluid: Pennzoil licensed DexIII up until last fluid and filter change. Last fill was with unlicensed ST Dex III.

Failure Mode: 2-3 shift became "slippery". Eventually lost 3rd gear. Trans still has 1st, 2nd and reverse. Pretty certain 3-4 clutch pack failure (VERY common failure with 700R4/4L60/4L60E transmissions).

Cause of failure: Unknown at this time.

Data point: Failure occurred 7,312 miles after last service.

Rebuild in progress with upgrades - quality parts. No corner cutting here. New solenoids, wiring harness, aux cooler, rebuilt converter, etc.

https://www.700r4l60e.com/store/product.php?productid=320&cat=22&page=1
 
turtlevette said:
That was "normal" looking back in the mechanical transmission days. You'd actually have piles of material on the bottom. You can lose a lot of clutch material before the trans is done.



What are you talking about. I've never seen a wet clutch on anything but a motorbike.
Are you talking about a model t or something.
Yep. Engineer.
Maybe the choo choo train type.
Engineering school still cracks me up.
 
Originally Posted By: paulo57509
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd like to know the mileage on the vehicle, conditions it was used under, and how it was maintained.


Vehicle: 2003 GMC Safari
Mileage: ~131k
Usage: Not severe; no towing
Previous trans service: Pan drop, fluid and filter (every other pan drop); approximately every 30k-40k miles.
Fluid: Pennzoil licensed DexIII up until last fluid and filter change. Last fill was with unlicensed ST Dex III.

Failure Mode: 2-3 shift became "slippery". Eventually lost 3rd gear. Trans still has 1st, 2nd and reverse. Pretty certain 3-4 clutch pack failure (VERY common failure with 700R4/4L60/4L60E transmissions).

Cause of failure: Unknown at this time.

Data point: Failure occurred 7,312 miles after last service.

Rebuild in progress with upgrades - quality parts. No corner cutting here. New solenoids, wiring harness, aux cooler, rebuilt converter, etc.

https://www.700r4l60e.com/store/product.php?productid=320&cat=22&page=1



C'mon and admit it; you took Oil Changer's advice and have been using MaxLife in that trans.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
C'mon and admit it; you took Oil Changer's advice and have been using MaxLife in that trans.
wink.gif



I don't listen to any advice or recommendations, especially from this site.
grin.gif


I've been a Pennzoil fan all my life (+45 years).

I've never used Valvoline products. Wait...I do have a tube of Valvoline chassis grease someplace. I think it's new. I don't even recall why I purchased it.

I will say that Valvoline Dev VI will be the fill of choice once I'm finished with the rebuild. So this will be a first for me.

Hate on.....
 
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
Originally Posted By: paulo57509
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'd like to know the mileage on the vehicle, conditions it was used under, and how it was maintained.


Vehicle: 2003 GMC Safari
Mileage: ~131k
Usage: Not severe; no towing
Previous trans service: Pan drop, fluid and filter (every other pan drop); approximately every 30k-40k miles.
Fluid: Pennzoil licensed DexIII up until last fluid and filter change. Last fill was with unlicensed ST Dex III.

Failure Mode: 2-3 shift became "slippery". Eventually lost 3rd gear. Trans still has 1st, 2nd and reverse. Pretty certain 3-4 clutch pack failure (VERY common failure with 700R4/4L60/4L60E transmissions).

Cause of failure: Unknown at this time.

Data point: Failure occurred 7,312 miles after last service.

Rebuild in progress with upgrades - quality parts. No corner cutting here. New solenoids, wiring harness, aux cooler, rebuilt converter, etc.

https://www.700r4l60e.com/store/product.php?productid=320&cat=22&page=1



C'mon and admit it; you took Oil Changer's advice and have been using MaxLife in that trans.
wink.gif



According to him this is never an issue with these trans.

I have never had a trans let go during any hard use. They always seam to let go on flat roads while mildly accelerating.
 
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
I have never had a trans let go during any hard use. They always seam to let go on flat roads while mildly accelerating.


That seems to be the advice that I've seen from a bunch of Delco O/S hackers, when trend various speed sensors while tuning engines/trans...at light load upshifts, the line pressure (?) is low, and the trans will sit there as long as it takes for the gear to engage, wiping clutches.
 
I guess I should clarify that two of the failures were gears/planetaries and one 4l80e wouldnt go in reverse or drive it had to be put in 1st to go.

They were a metric 700r4 a th400 and a 4l80e respectivly.
 
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