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#3318501 - 03/20/14 09:32 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26506
Loc: a prison island
turtlevette seems to have a misunderstanding of the "placebo" effect, thinking that the "placebo" effect is imagination, when it is actual, clinical changes, brought about by something that shouldn't have brought such changes.

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#3318504 - 03/20/14 09:35 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: turtlevette]
Zaedock Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 3799
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Ahh, the good old Delo SAE30 days. I'm down to two gallons!
I started both diesel and gas engines below freezing. I didn't notice any change in cranking time.


Do you think it lubricates as well as a 0W in the first 10 minutes after startup below freezing?



Yep. It did a fine job too.

There is more to start up wear than oil flow. Delo SAE30 has a pour point of -24*F and behaves more like a 15W30.

10 minutes? Is it ideal, no - but nothing is going to blow up.

_________________________
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1992 YJ "The Heep"/1994 Olds Cutlass Ciera 3.1/auto
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#3318505 - 03/20/14 09:40 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Ahh, the good old Delo SAE30 days. I'm down to two gallons!
I started both diesel and gas engines below freezing. I didn't notice any change in cranking time.


Do you think it lubricates as well as a 0W in the first 10 minutes after startup below freezing?


Do you think that someone who doesn't ever SEE freezing needs any more than SAE30's cold properties ?


Yes. Absolutely.

I think I see a pattern here. You have different "fan clubs" here. Thick oil, thin oil, and no/low VIIs. There's really no changing of anyone's mind that's going to happen.

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#3318510 - 03/20/14 09:47 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26506
Loc: a prison island
No, please explain how oil that's flowing in seconds is going to protect more than oil that's flowing in seconds...I'm interested.

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#3318523 - 03/20/14 09:55 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
No, please explain how oil that's flowing in seconds is going to protect more than oil that's flowing in seconds...I'm interested.


Unless the oil is in its viscosity sweet spot its in its "plastic" state and does not lubricate as well.

Also, do you think oil in a syrup like state is going to sling properly to lubricate the piston and rings?

Hello?

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#3318531 - 03/20/14 10:03 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26506
Loc: a prison island
Sorry, as usual, you are going to have to dumb your technical talk down to third grade level....

"syrup", "sweet spot", "sling" and "plastic" are new ones to me.

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#3318535 - 03/20/14 10:07 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
You also have cavitation issues with thick cold oil.

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#3318537 - 03/20/14 10:07 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2725
Loc: FL, USA
The only advantage I can think of would be better shear stability, which is not a concern in modern multi viscosity oils so shear stability is a moot point. The modern multi weight oils are without a doubt the better oil
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#3318539 - 03/20/14 10:09 PM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: turtlevette]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 1987
Loc: Ontario, Canada
>plastic
>syrup like state
>non-freezing climate

Slow down turt, think about what you're trying to say. Your imagination is running wild with all that sensationalism.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Yes. Absolutely.

I think I see a pattern here. You have different "fan clubs" here. Thick oil, thin oil, and no/low VIIs. There's really no changing of anyone's mind that's going to happen.



When you find yourself part of a fan club, by perhaps being hyper-reactional and anti-the-other-guy to people who disagree with your way of thinking for instance, then you know getting off course. Just accept that other people's reality will not correspond with your imagination. smile
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#3318642 - 03/21/14 03:03 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Shannow]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26506
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
In an engine that is run for very long times, essentially steady-state, I dont see a reason to use anything different.


Also without the temporary shear of VIIs (I believe that) you can run thinner straight weight KV100s than multis...

As an example, this makes sense...moreso to me than a 0W-20 in a 10W-30 application.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1174209


For those that haven't looked at the link, GMan ran 20W-20 in his car that is definitely not a beater, and posted UOAs.

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#3318644 - 03/21/14 03:18 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9177
Loc: Clovis, CA
I gotta question for you guys: Why is SAE30 often labelled HD30 ?


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#3318660 - 03/21/14 05:26 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: fdcg27]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26506
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Even the straight grades aren't really straight.
The basestock will have its own VI, so even a straight grade will be thinner at cold start than it's SAE viscosity grade might lead you to think.
In your climate, you could probably run a 20W-20 winters and a 30 in summers with no ill effects in most engines.


To be a "straight" weight, the lubricant has to be "Newtonian", and typically/always devoid of polymeric thickeners.

So, regardless of VI, a "straight" weight will have an identical viscosity regardless of shear rate for a given temperature...if your crankshaft is spinning 1,000 RPM, 3,000 RPM, or 20,000 RPM, at 100C, your 11cst 30 will be 11cst at every rpm increment.

Until multigrades were developed, the concept of "HTHS" was irrelevant (more so "not yet needed"), the normal viscosity classifications applied, and worked everywhere.

Multigrades with polymeric VII are non newtonian, and have different viscosities at the same temperature depending on the shear rate of the oil...the viscosity in your bearing at 1,000, 3,000, or 20,000 will be different.

That's why they introduced the HTHS concept, and requirement into J300...in the words of SAE
Quote:
To insure that polymer-containing oils do not create a situation in which the viscosity of the oil decreases to less than a specified limit, minimum values of HTHS viscosity are assigned to each of the non-W viscosity grades in Table 1. A
special situation exists regarding the SAE 40 grade. Historically, SAE 0W-40, 5W-40, and 10W-40 oils have been used
primarily in light-duty engines. These multigrade SAE 40 oils must meet a minimum HTHS viscosity limit of 3.5 mPa·s.
In contrast, SAE 15W-40, 20W-40, 25W-40, and 40 oils have typically been used in heavy-duty engines. The manufacturers of such engines have required HTHS viscosity limits consistent with good engine durability in high-load, severe service applications. Thus, SAE 15W-40, 20W-40, 25W-40, and single-grade 40 oils must meet a minimum HTHS viscosity limit of 3.7 mPa·s.


http://paservice.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/J300_201304.pdf

Out of interest, an SAE30 "newtonian" oil of around 10-11cst, KV100 typically will be around the 3.5-4cst at 150C...the original 2.9 for the 0, 5, and 10W-40s show how badly VII wasn't so good when developed...the current requirement for 3.5 for those same grades shows just how much modern VII have improved in recent years, in being able to meet those specs in (allegedly) every oil that you see holding the SAE ratings.

A High VI "straight weight", like Amsoil 30 can claim 10W, as it's cold temperature performance can meet those requirements...but it's still newtonian and can claim "straight"

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#3318666 - 03/21/14 05:54 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: turtlevette]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 1395
Loc: Detroit Metro
Congratulations! You just graduated BITOG academy.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I think I see a pattern here. You have different "fan clubs" here. Thick oil, thin oil, and no/low VIIs. There's really no changing of anyone's mind that's going to happen.

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#3318671 - 03/21/14 06:00 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
CourierDriver Offline


Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 3035
Loc: Tennessee
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen
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#3318828 - 03/21/14 09:14 AM Re: Advantages of straight weight oil [Re: Now]
Zaedock Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 3799
Loc: Massachusetts
I found this cold viscosity info in my old files when some of us were messing with the Delo SAE30. I can't remember who calculated the numbers. It may have been Audijunkie.

Delo SAE 30
100c 12.1cST
40c 105 cSt
10c(50f): 726.5 cSt
5c(41f): 1102.3
0c(32f): 1731
-5c(23f): 2825.4
-10c(14f): 4809.1
-15c(5f): 8575.7
-20c(-4f): 16100.7
_________________________
2012 F150 Ex-cab 5.0L/2004 Malibu Maxx LT
1992 YJ "The Heep"/1994 Olds Cutlass Ciera 3.1/auto
1975 Ford Bronco/1959 Willys CJ5/20XX Custom rock crawler

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