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#3317104 - 03/19/14 02:54 PM Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine
tenderloin Offline


Registered: 12/16/02
Posts: 6047
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA

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#3317136 - 03/19/14 03:44 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5397
Loc: southeast US
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.

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#3317170 - 03/19/14 04:09 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
wallyuwl Offline


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1467
Loc: Lexington, KY
That's a lot of money. I don't trust Toyota, and haven't even looked at their options for our soon-to-be-purchased new vehicle.

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#3317173 - 03/19/14 04:12 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4627
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Not some media spin but according to the FBI:

“Toyota put sales over safety and profit over principle,” said George Venizelos, assistant director of the FBI. “The disregard Toyota had for the safety of the public was outrageous. Not only did Toyota fail to recall cars with problem parts, they continued to manufacture new cars with the same parts they knew were deadly.”

And:

“Rather than promptly disclosing and correcting safety issues about which they were aware, Toyota made misleading public statements to consumers and gave inaccurate facts to members of Congress,”

Why some otherwise red blooded Americans think Toyota walks on water is beyond me. You won't find many saints in the car building business, or oil business for that matter, but the Toyota/Honda Kool aid drinkers I run into make no sense at all to me.
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#3317176 - 03/19/14 04:15 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: friendly_jacek]
Hermann Offline


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 2356
Loc: Kansas City
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.
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#3317179 - 03/19/14 04:18 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Hermann]
RISUPERCREWMAN Offline


Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 687
Loc: RHODE ISLAND
Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.


Yup GM has surely got some serious issues comming up!
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#3317180 - 03/19/14 04:19 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Cristobal Offline


Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 2020
Loc: Montebello, CA
Toyota got their hands caught in the cookie jar by the bear trap at the bottom of it.
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#3317185 - 03/19/14 04:25 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Hermann]
Silverado12 Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 786
Loc: Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.


Apparently GM didn't lie about the problems like Toyota, but who knows.
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#3317186 - 03/19/14 04:25 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
sciphi Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 8528
Loc: Upstate NY
And somebody takes yet another bash at GM. Start your own thread, don't pollute this one!

Good on the feds for making Toyota pay. Let the other makers doing similar/identical behavior be treated the same way.
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#3317189 - 03/19/14 04:28 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
morepwr Online   content


Registered: 01/17/12
Posts: 1298
Loc: ventura, ca
Where does the money they pay in fines go? Not that I really care either way but just curious.

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#3317202 - 03/19/14 04:45 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
gman2304 Online   content


Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 736
Loc: n.c.
I'll take some...my wifes 06 Avalon has had no less than 4 recalls since we have owned it. I'm not holding my breath though!

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#3317237 - 03/19/14 05:34 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
dishdude Offline


Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 3326
Loc: Phoenix
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.

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#3317240 - 03/19/14 05:39 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1805
Loc: MTL, CANADA
The US gov could use the money LOL
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#3317251 - 03/19/14 05:53 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dishdude]
simple_gifts Offline


Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 9059
Loc: Middlesex County CT
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.


The fine isn't about producing design mistakes and flaws.

If you notice it was a criminal investigation.
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#3317252 - 03/19/14 05:54 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: friendly_jacek]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2913
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Interesting point since it's in the title of this article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-toyota-settlement-idUSBREA2I0VB20140319

Last quarter Toyota made 4.99 Billion dollars in net income. So in 3 weeks they should be able to pay the fine if they stay on par with last quarter. Currently their reporting 35 billion in cash as well.

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#3317253 - 03/19/14 05:54 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Sierra048 Offline


Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 270
Loc: Georgia
Ironically, I just opened my mail and there is a check from Toyota for $125. The check was for, and I quote, "Unintended Acceleration Marketing, Sales Practices and Products Liability Litigation. I traded my Toyota Tundra in on my Jeep 3 1/2 years ago. I didn't even know there was a class action against them. I'm going to happily deposit this check into my account tomorrow.

That Tundra was the best vehicle I've ever owned. The reason I got rid of it is rather sappy but I got rid of it non-the-less.

After 9 1/2 years of ownership, that vehicle never had any problems except extreme vibration you would get when braking. It was my wife's DD and I never experienced it until it became my DD after she got a Nissan Xterra. When I got it I started investigating the wobbly breaking (my wife thought it was defective tires causing the problem and took it back several times complaining but they did nothing to make her happy). Turns out that they undersized the calipers and rotors for the truck which caused the rotors to overheat and wear out prematurely. After finally figuring out what the solution was, thanks to a Toyota Tundra forum, Toyota wanted $1400 to fix it since it wasn't under warranty. I fixed it myself for $280. Had to replace the calipers, rotors and brake pads to a larger size. Braking was smooth after replacing everything. Now, I feel like I'm out only $155 to fix what was clearly a engineering design flaw.


Edited by Mfrank84 (03/19/14 05:59 PM)
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#3317262 - 03/19/14 06:02 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
needsducktape Offline


Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 811
Loc: Sacramento CA
I think this this is an example of our gov't doing its job and PROTECTING its citizens and UPHOLDING the law.

A company tried to get away with something it knew was wrong, and is now going to pay the price.

I say good. I hope this serves to warn other companies from potentially doing the same thing!
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#3317268 - 03/19/14 06:08 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: KCJeep]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9237
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Why some otherwise red blooded Americans think Toyota walks on water is beyond me. You won't find many saints in the car building business, or oil business for that matter, but the Toyota/Honda Kool aid drinkers I run into make no sense at all to me.

To be fair, both Honda and Toyota have had long and nearly-unblemished histories of reliability. It's going to take more than a few years of bad apples to dislodge that reputation, just as it has taken the American car industry many years to bounce back from their own well-deserved reputation for mediocrity.

Not saying that's reasonable; just saying it's how it is.
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#3317312 - 03/19/14 06:53 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: FBI

“Toyota put sales over safety and profit over principle,”


no kidding, there's a stretch.. how about any corporate identity with this nebulous "number 1 this, number 1 that" mantra of no specificity = red flag, instead of "oh i better get one too"

Want it to stop? Then the consumer needs to stop responding to idiotic pavlovian triggers
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#3317314 - 03/19/14 06:55 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: d00df00d]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

To be fair, both Honda and Toyota have had long and nearly-unblemished histories of reliability. It's going to take more than a few years of bad apples to dislodge that reputation, just as it has taken the American car industry many years to bounce back from their own well-deserved reputation for mediocrity.

Not saying that's reasonable; just saying it's how it is.


it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.
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#3317354 - 03/19/14 07:29 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Kiwi_ME Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 691
Loc: New Zealand
Toyota have been out-lawyered and appear have taken the least expensive way out.
Their choices of technology in the area of throttle control is little different from any other manufacturer. Nothing solid has been found, they have just been out-manoeuvred in the courtroom.

What you're seeing here is not about safety, it's about greed.

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#3317355 - 03/19/14 07:29 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Cristobal Offline


Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 2020
Loc: Montebello, CA
This sort of fine is intended to dissuade future conduct such as was done by Toyota. Had they not done the smoke & mirrors dance, said there was a problem, and aggressively found out why & how to fix it, they would have come out smelling like a rose.

After that CHP officer & his family got killed in that crash, there was a lot of the old it-should-not-happen-like-that-so-we-cannot-have-caused-it, "head in the sand" and circle-the-wagons stuff from Toyota.

But either a machine works properly, or it doesn't. It is intuitively obvious.
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1996 Toyota Avalon - "The Beast"

The Poodle Empire will conquer the Galaxy. All Cats must die!

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#3317408 - 03/19/14 08:07 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: jrustles]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Want it to stop? Then the consumer needs to stop responding to idiotic pavlovian triggers


Yes, like a snooty/upity restricted country-clubber voiceover boasting about "the relentless pursuit of perfection"?? LOL
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#3317415 - 03/19/14 08:10 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: jrustles]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

To be fair, both Honda and Toyota have had long and nearly-unblemished histories of reliability. It's going to take more than a few years of bad apples to dislodge that reputation, just as it has taken the American car industry many years to bounce back from their own well-deserved reputation for mediocrity.

Not saying that's reasonable; just saying it's how it is.


it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.


...and trillion$$ of bucks of relentless TV/print/net bombardment ads as well. wink
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#3317465 - 03/19/14 08:45 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9441
Loc: OH
IIRC, there was nothing actually wrong with these cars, as was the true of the infamous Audi case of years earlier.
Had their drivers either pushed the left pedal as hard as they could, reached down and gotten the floor mat clear of the throttle pedal, turned the key switch to the off position or selected neutral, the festivities would have come to an end.
Most drivers first instinct under these conditions would be to brake hard.
Mine would be.
A couple of the buff books tried exactly that, flooring both pedals at the same time.
The brakes won every time.
Toyota error or driver error?
As with Audi, driver error every time.
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#3317493 - 03/19/14 09:14 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: jrustles]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9237
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job. wink

Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.
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#3317571 - 03/19/14 10:30 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: morepwr]
wallyuwl Offline


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1467
Loc: Lexington, KY
Originally Posted By: morepwr
Where does the money they pay in fines go? Not that I really care either way but just curious.


Well, about 53% of US households have any Federal tax liability. That is probably 75 million people (I have no idea, just a guess). I think that money should be divided up and provided to we the taxpaying people in the form of a tax rebate.

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#3317572 - 03/19/14 10:31 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
I don't feel Toyota are hyped up so dramatically. My 2003 Saturn ION was outlasted by numerous Toyota Corolla models that other people drove.

Sure, Toyota made some cars that sucked. The Tercel and Previa were not good, but that is a much smaller number of vehicles when compared to other companies.
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#3317617 - 03/19/14 11:20 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
accent2012 Offline


Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 441
Loc: Orlando, FL
Because, you know, cars are precision made machines. If something is off by a millimeter, then the car would explode. So, big government should do something to protect us weaklings.
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Hyundai Accent 2012

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#3317626 - 03/19/14 11:41 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: fdcg27]
moving2 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 605
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
IIRC, there was nothing actually wrong with these cars [ ...]
Had their drivers [...] reached down and gotten the floor mat clear of the throttle pedal, turned the key switch to the off position or selected neutral, the festivities would have come to an end.
Most drivers first instinct under these conditions would be to brake hard.
Mine would be.
[...]
Toyota error or driver error?
As with Audi, driver error every time.


fdcg27- Toyota Error. Pretty simple, really. The floormats were not properly secured by design, causing the accelerator to stick in some situations. In a separate design problem, accelerator mechanisms could stick due to a design flaw. Both of these are SERIOUS design problems, and if you are going to try to assign personal responsibility, I'd suggest it belongs to Toyota, not the victims of their design flaws. It's all too easy, with 20/20 hindsight and all the time in the world to analyze and play armchair-driver AFTER the cause has been determined, to say "oh yes, the floormat, they should've just moved it out of the way". If you've never heard of the floormat problem before (as was the case with the victims), I'm going to guess your reaction would be very different and much slower. Also turning a key is easy, but how about pushbutton start? To those in the transitionary period from key turn to pushbutton, they may not know to hold down the start button to emergency power-off. Again, 20-20 hindsight is easy as pie. Walking in their shoes in their circumstances, not so much. Shifting into neutral is the only one of your solutions that holds, though even on that one, turning a dial to shift isn't quite the same feeling when you're in the cockpit, especially in an emergency situation (not sure what type of shifter the vehicle(s) had.

I'm not sure how you can defend Toyota when they knew the problem existed in other models not ID'd for the floormat fix, volume-sellers like the Corolla, which Toyota now admits they KNEW had the very same problem, but which they chose not to fix. I guess playing armchair-driver is easier than admitting Toyota messed up- BIGTIME.
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#3317627 - 03/19/14 11:41 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
needsducktape Offline


Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 811
Loc: Sacramento CA
This is going way off track...
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#3317630 - 03/19/14 11:43 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: wallyuwl]
moving2 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 605
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
don't trust Toyota, and haven't even looked at their options for our soon-to-be-purchased new vehicle.


wallyuwul- do you trust GM? Why or why not?
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#3317669 - 03/20/14 01:31 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: accent2012]
moving2 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 605
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: accent2012
If something is off by a millimeter, then the car would explode. So, big government should do something to protect us weaklings.


Off by a millimeter? How about if 2 design flaws can cause the accelerator pedal to stick, and the vehicle manufacturer knows of these issues but only partially addresses them, then big gov't should intervene? Sounds a lot more reasonable when you tell the whole story vs. your laughable hyperbole.
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#3317690 - 03/20/14 04:35 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
moving2 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 605
Loc: USA
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#3317696 - 03/20/14 05:06 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dishdude]
Number21 Offline


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 230
Loc: OR
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. They lied to cover up their mistakes. Mistakes happen. Lies don't.

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#3317717 - 03/20/14 06:02 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: d00df00d]
NHHEMI Offline


Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 5139
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job. wink

Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.


When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.
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#3317779 - 03/20/14 07:30 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Silverado12]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.


Apparently GM didn't lie about the problems like Toyota, but who knows.


That's hilarious! If you believe that, the missing plane landed in Florida...

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#3317780 - 03/20/14 07:32 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: NHHEMI]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job. wink

Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.


When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.


At least their engines don't have to be replaced at 60K miles...

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#3317781 - 03/20/14 07:34 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Number21]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. They lied to cover up their mistakes. Mistakes happen. Lies don't.


You can name anything Toyota is guilty of and the big 3 are guilty of the same 10 fold...

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#3317845 - 03/20/14 09:09 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
needsducktape Offline


Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 811
Loc: Sacramento CA
I'm pretty sure they are all shrewd at the very least.

The key here is that TOYOTA LIED and knew the issue approximately TWO years before the famous 911 call & crash (where a family DIED).
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#3317867 - 03/20/14 09:30 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: moving2]
wallyuwl Offline


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1467
Loc: Lexington, KY
Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
don't trust Toyota, and haven't even looked at their options for our soon-to-be-purchased new vehicle.


wallyuwul- do you trust GM? Why or why not?


We haven't looked at GM's offerings in the segment (Traverse, etc.) because I don't really trust GM's build quality. We have an Equinox with the 2.4L and it hasn't been good. The rest of the vehicle has been solid in terms of build, but not the engine. It has consumed oil from the beginning and needed a major repair (under warranty thankfully) in October. On the Equinox forum others have said they've needed this same repair two or three times. Major engine design and/or parts flaw. They wanted a vehicle this size to get the big MPG number and rushed it to market. It wasn't ready and from what I hear they are still making it the same way as five years ago. The other problem I have is how the transmission shifts. It is purely software related and GM won't do a new calibration for it (they did one a few months after the original release that helped but still isn't great - we got the new one actually off of the laptop of a GM engineer who drove down from Detroit four and a half years ago, so we had it before the dealers did, and I told him it is good but not perfected, so they know about it).

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#3317870 - 03/20/14 09:36 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
oily boyd Offline


Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 506
Loc: WI
At the risk of getting this thread locked:

It's pretty rich when the US Government accuses anyone of "concealing and making deceptive statements..."

*partial quote taken from a recent Forbes article*


Edited by oily boyd (03/20/14 09:36 AM)
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#3317879 - 03/20/14 09:51 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: oily boyd]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3469
Loc: Ohio
Toyota is glad to settle the deal and move on. One thing the litigation did do is light a fire under their butts to be sensitive to defects in their vehicles which is a good thing.

But I do think there is a conflict of interest with the prosecution. Since the US was a major stakeholder in their #1 competitor. However all this does is make them stronger and more reliable in the future.

However, the public lesson to all the automakers is a good thing.
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#3317882 - 03/20/14 09:54 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: wallyuwl]
Silverado12 Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 786
Loc: Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
don't trust Toyota, and haven't even looked at their options for our soon-to-be-purchased new vehicle.


wallyuwul- do you trust GM? Why or why not?


We haven't looked at GM's offerings in the segment (Traverse, etc.) because I don't really trust GM's build quality. We have an Equinox with the 2.4L and it hasn't been good. The rest of the vehicle has been solid in terms of build, but not the engine. It has consumed oil from the beginning and needed a major repair (under warranty thankfully) in October. On the Equinox forum others have said they've needed this same repair two or three times. Major engine design and/or parts flaw. They wanted a vehicle this size to get the big MPG number and rushed it to market. It wasn't ready and from what I hear they are still making it the same way as five years ago. The other problem I have is how the transmission shifts. It is purely software related and GM won't do a new calibration for it (they did one a few months after the original release that helped but still isn't great - we got the new one actually off of the laptop of a GM engineer who drove down from Detroit four and a half years ago, so we had it before the dealers did, and I told him it is good but not perfected, so they know about it).


Wife has a 2012 that she ordered new in 2011 (Equinox 2.4) and the only problem with it was a pinched wire going to the liftgate (assembly error). Engine has been flawless and gets good mileage, although not quite what the EPA says it should get. I've noticed that for just about every mfg, there are first and sonetimes second year problems. The Japanese have a tendency to test in their home market first before they sell them over here, so the bugs are usually worked out. Their quality control seems second to none, though. I just prefer Chrysler and GM to any of the imports. My Chrysler products have been better than anything, but YMMV.
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#3317889 - 03/20/14 09:59 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: needsducktape]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3469
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: needsducktape
I'm pretty sure they are all shrewd at the very least.

The key here is that TOYOTA LIED and knew the issue approximately TWO years before the famous 911 call & crash (where a family DIED).


True. GM now faces the same thing with the ignition recall. But their new CEO took a line from the Toyota CEO and came out and apologized right away.

Ford ignored the data and then lied with the Firestone tire recall on the Explorer and suffered the near destruction of one of America's top selling SUV brands because so many people were killed in them. They also destroyed a 100 year old supplier relationship doing so. Jack Nassar was the real problem until Bill Ford fired him and actually threw him out of Ford HQ.

So, the days of hiding fatal defects in automobiles in the US is coming to a close. My guess is that it is the result of so much mass instant communication on the internet that prevents the automakers from hiding the number of fatal accidents with their products.
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#3317936 - 03/20/14 10:35 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: grampi]
NHHEMI Offline


Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 5139
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job. wink

Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.


When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.


At least their engines don't have to be replaced at 60K miles...


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


Edited by NHHEMI (03/20/14 10:36 AM)
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#3317944 - 03/20/14 10:43 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
badtlc Online   content


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3819
Loc: KC
This means the govt. can lower taxes now, right?
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#3317963 - 03/20/14 11:12 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Hermann]
Win Online   content


Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3369
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.


I don't think GM stands accused - yet - of lying to the Congress.

Those guys (congress) tell us bald faced lies at every opportunity, but go berserk when someone tells them a whopper. Looks like Toyo learned that the hard way.

edit: The Toyo guys should have just made a bald faced statement proclaiming their complete innocence - and then taken the fifth, like some of our recent public servants.


Edited by Win (03/20/14 11:25 AM)
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#3318150 - 03/20/14 03:14 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: NHHEMI]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


True, but the big 3 have had, and continue to have far more...

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#3318180 - 03/20/14 03:59 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: grampi]
dishdude Offline


Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 3326
Loc: Phoenix
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


True, but the big 3 have had, and continue to have far more...


Hogwash. That's a pretty ignorant statement.

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#3318245 - 03/20/14 05:25 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: grampi]
Number21 Offline


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 230
Loc: OR
Originally Posted By: grampi
You can name anything Toyota is guilty of and the big 3 are guilty of the same 10 fold...


Really? Where is their 1.2 billion dollar fine then?

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#3318444 - 03/20/14 08:34 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: fdcg27]
antiqueshell Offline


Registered: 03/02/12
Posts: 4255
Loc: chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
IIRC, there was nothing actually wrong with these cars, as was the true of the infamous Audi case of years earlier.
Had their drivers either pushed the left pedal as hard as they could, reached down and gotten the floor mat clear of the throttle pedal, turned the key switch to the off position or selected neutral, the festivities would have come to an end.
Most drivers first instinct under these conditions would be to brake hard.
Mine would be.
A couple of the buff books tried exactly that, flooring both pedals at the same time.
The brakes won every time.
Toyota error or driver error?
As with Audi, driver error every time.


Yep, I never understood why a professionally trained police officer couldn't figure out how to stop his vehicle. strange.

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#3318456 - 03/20/14 08:48 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
antiqueshell Offline


Registered: 03/02/12
Posts: 4255
Loc: chicago, Illinois
If anything I think the behavior of a major corporation deliberately hiding knowledge of a potentially lethal defect and then lying about it shows the incredible arrogance and belligerence of top executives but more worrisome is the sociopathology that seems to be very evident at that top level.

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#3318633 - 03/21/14 01:49 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: NHHEMI]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12902
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.

My 10.5 years old 2004 Honda S2000 didn't have mechanical problem, except the clutch master cylinder had a small leak a year ago. I had too ad 2-3 oz brake brake fluid to the reservoir, I then removed the master cylinder to inspect and cleaned it, reinstalled and until now no more leak. I also adjust the cylinder travel to get the engage point up near the top. Other than the master cylinder leak problem no other problem.

If you call the fast wearing rear tires is a bad design on a light car of about 2800 lbs, then Honda has a design flaw with the S2000.

Part of the problems (clutch master cylinder leak and fast wearing rear tires) is I drive my S2000 mostly in city with a lot of stop and go, so that I have to shift gear constantly and apply the brake more than 2-3 times every mile.
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#3318650 - 03/21/14 04:19 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: grampi]
Silverado12 Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 786
Loc: Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


True, but the big 3 have had, and continue to have far more...


Toyota has most recalls
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#3318700 - 03/21/14 07:13 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Silverado12]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


True, but the big 3 have had, and continue to have far more...


Toyota has most recalls


The big 3 have had far more over the years...

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#3318701 - 03/21/14 07:14 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dishdude]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


You might wan to do a bit of research before making such statements. Both have had their share of engine issues. All car mfg's have issues.


True, but the big 3 have had, and continue to have far more...


Hogwash. That's a pretty ignorant statement.


You can choose to walk through life with blinders on and ignore the truth if you want...

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#3318703 - 03/21/14 07:15 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Number21]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3621
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: grampi
You can name anything Toyota is guilty of and the big 3 are guilty of the same 10 fold...


Really? Where is their 1.2 billion dollar fine then?


They just haven't been caught yet...

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#3318784 - 03/21/14 08:37 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Mykl Offline


Registered: 02/08/13
Posts: 1353
Loc: Texas
So I'm riding with my aunt in her Ford F-250 sitting in the passenger seat, traveling at about 60 mph down a highway in moderate traffic when she said "it's not slowing down...." in a very calm voice, but when I asked her to repeat what she said she seemed a little more worried.

The passenger in the back, predictably, freaked out. Before attempting to diagnose the problem I instructed my aunt to shift into neutral (auto gearbox), she missed and hit park, and quickly moved it back to drive. On her second attempt she hit neutral.

Knowing that we were no longer in a runaway vehicle I reached down to around the gas pedal to see if the floor mat was stuck, which it was. I fixed it and we were on our way.

For those of us who are car enthusiasts and generally enjoy operating vehicles, this may all have been second nature. I would agree that it should be second nature for anyone who operates a vehicle. But if you've never thought about this type of situation happening to you, and you've never received any training specific to this, I understand why some people would freak out and lose their minds.

As far as engine reliability goes.... who cares? Buy the car you like and take care of it, and more likely than not it'll be fine.
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#3318794 - 03/21/14 08:47 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Number21]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2677
Loc: Upper Midwest
You're crazy if you think GM would be fined by this agency.

Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: grampi
You can name anything Toyota is guilty of and the big 3 are guilty of the same 10 fold...


Really? Where is their 1.2 billion dollar fine then?
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#3319915 - 03/22/14 04:03 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: kschachn]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1775
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You're crazy if you think GM would be fined by this agency.


I agree; Government Motors is the Fair Haired Boy of this Administration...
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#3320285 - 03/22/14 09:23 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: needsducktape]
Shaman Offline


Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 2298
Loc: Frankfort, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: needsducktape
I'm pretty sure they are all shrewd at the very least.

The key here is that TOYOTA LIED and knew the issue approximately TWO years before the famous 911 call & crash (where a family DIED).


Sounds eerily similar to a government program starring vin diesel and paul walker

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#3320311 - 03/22/14 09:40 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1501
Loc: Southeast
A little blood in the water and a bunch of ambulance chasing attorneys and this is what you get.

I'm with the NASA engineers that said there was no substance to the allegations; just a floor mat that needed to be pulled out from under the gas pedal by the operator.

The federal government wants to start levying fines for misleading statements, they need to get their checkbook out too.
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#3320408 - 03/22/14 11:13 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: SilverC6]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1775
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
A little blood in the water and a bunch of ambulance chasing attorneys and this is what you get.

I'm with the NASA engineers that said there was no substance to the allegations; just a floor mat that needed to be pulled out from under the gas pedal by the operator.

The federal government wants to start levying fines for misleading statements, they need to get their checkbook out too.


I agree 100% No one wants to accept responsibility for their own negligence or stupidity, so we blame a manufacturer for a "defect" that never existed...
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#3320445 - 03/23/14 12:29 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Sierra048]
01rangerxl Offline


Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 7398
Loc: Birmingham, AL
Originally Posted By: Mfrank84
Ironically, I just opened my mail and there is a check from Toyota for $125. The check was for, and I quote, "Unintended Acceleration Marketing, Sales Practices and Products Liability Litigation. I traded my Toyota Tundra in on my Jeep 3 1/2 years ago. I didn't even know there was a class action against them. I'm going to happily deposit this check into my account tomorrow.


[censored]? That is awesome, I guess. I want some money for nothing too!

My truck was part of the infamous Ford cruise control switch recall. Can I get some money, Ford? Decreased value and whatnot (never mind that I effectively totaled the truck in 2010)?

I'm still rocking the red Texas Instruments switch, with a fused jumper harness installed in 2007 or 2008. No leaks yet, but I want some money [censored]! crackmeup
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#3322732 - 03/25/14 07:17 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
VNTS Offline


Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1240
Loc: NE
Didnt the President of Toyota admit that he was embarrased for the cover up and the culture of deciet and lying within Toyota about this?

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#3322878 - 03/25/14 09:55 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: KCJeep]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11496
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Why some otherwise red blooded Americans think Toyota walks on water is beyond me. You won't find many saints in the car building business, or oil business for that matter, but the Toyota/Honda Kool aid drinkers I run into make no sense at all to me.


You can accurately extend this comment to ANY Kook-Aid drinker, whether they like Hondas or Toyotas, Fords or Chevys, or anything else. There are NO saints in the car-building business, and that's been demonstrated recently with both Toyota and General Motors finding themselves in the spotlight, and with other automakers facing scrutiny in the past.

It doesn't matter what brand we like (or don't like); if we think any automaker has anything but their bottom line as their first priority, I'm afraid we're mistaken.
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#3323065 - 03/25/14 12:02 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: MCompact]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15180
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: kschachn
You're crazy if you think GM would be fined by this agency.


I agree; Government Motors is the Fair Haired Boy of this Administration...


Now that's funny.

But sadly, it is true. After all, they saved Detroit...
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#3323109 - 03/25/14 12:35 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
andrewg Offline


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 2920
Loc: Covington, Wa.
It would be foolish for anyone to think that ANY automaker isn't in it for the money. Of course they are....and should be or they will not survive. Lying or deflecting from the truth is not acceptable for any manufacturer however. But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so. I don't think they are any more guilty than any other manufacturer when it comes to business practices.
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#3323318 - 03/25/14 03:38 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Didn't someone decompile some Toyota control code and find it dangerously ill-written? Things like buffer overruns, illegal addresses etc?? I thought someone posted the article on this board.
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#3323527 - 03/25/14 07:40 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: andrewg]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7097
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.
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#3323531 - 03/25/14 07:43 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dailydriver]
andrewg Offline


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 2920
Loc: Covington, Wa.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.

I have no idea actually. But I do have a suggestion....stop drinking so much coffee late in the day.
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#3323537 - 03/25/14 07:48 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dailydriver]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.

People would have quit buying their cars in the USA ages ago, if they weren't worth it.

It is fun for many people to compare their cars to certain American cars, like Buicks, Lincolns, and Oldsmobiles, but when you compare a 70s Toyota to any American car of the same size, you get a more fair comparison.

In places where there is no road salt, you can still find very old Toyota trucks.

And the USA protected itself from trucks that were built in Japan. It was included in another tax. None of our car makers wanted to compete with the tiny Datsun pickup.
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#3324080 - 03/26/14 10:54 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: jrustles]
supton Online   content


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 4951
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Didn't someone decompile some Toyota control code and find it dangerously ill-written? Things like buffer overruns, illegal addresses etc?? I thought someone posted the article on this board.


I think you meant me; IIRC I recall the link and article properly:

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/442...ts-consequences
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#3324365 - 03/26/14 02:57 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: supton]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Didn't someone decompile some Toyota control code and find it dangerously ill-written? Things like buffer overruns, illegal addresses etc?? I thought someone posted the article on this board.


I think you meant me; IIRC I recall the link and article properly:

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/442...ts-consequences


Schwing, that's it! Thanks.
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#3325924 - 03/28/14 02:22 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: MCompact]
moving2 Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 605
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
just a floor mat that needed to be pulled out from under the gas pedal by the operator.



I agree 100% No one wants to accept responsibility for their own negligence or stupidity, so we blame a manufacturer for a "defect" that never existed...


MCompact and SilverC6-

1. 20/20 hindsight (AFTER the floormat was found to be the cause of some of these accidents) is pretty easy. Some % of the population did not / will not react properly in an emergency situation and pull the floormats away, especially if they don't know about this defect (again, you guys have the advantage of knowing about the floormats after the fact). This is the manufacturer's fault, not the consumer's. It's funny how much I hear about "personal responsibility" from certain people. Then, when it comes to "corporate responsibility", their answer is "uhhh...see personal responsibility?" Sorry, but that's a pretty obvious double-standard.

2. Neither of you are addressing the sticky accelerator defect, just the floormats. Why is that? Low hanging fruit, perhaps? (See washington post link in my post above). Either way, pretty flawed argument.
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#3325957 - 03/28/14 05:33 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: dailydriver]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15180
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.


Toyota is "nice" and GM is "evil". Nice always wins...
_________________________
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Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3326090 - 03/28/14 09:13 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: SteveSRT8]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3469
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.


Toyota is "nice" and GM is "evil". Nice always wins...


Well at least you finally made some sense. LOL
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#3326092 - 03/28/14 09:22 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3469
Loc: Ohio
Anyway...I just bought a new Toyota last night. Looked at the Ford Mustang...but it just wasn't put together as well. The interior looked too cheap and wasn't laid out well.

I wouldn't mind having a Mustang but right now I need a car that will go 150-200k and not be a rat trap after 100k. I have 3 friends with F-150s that are disintegrating after 120k in the salt here.
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#3326112 - 03/28/14 09:40 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11496
Loc: North Carolina
So what'd you buy?
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#3326160 - 03/28/14 10:27 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: Doog]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15180
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Doog
Anyway...I just bought a new Toyota last night. Looked at the Ford Mustang...but it just wasn't put together as well. The interior looked too cheap and wasn't laid out well.

I wouldn't mind having a Mustang but right now I need a car that will go 150-200k and not be a rat trap after 100k. I have 3 friends with F-150s that are disintegrating after 120k in the salt here.


This has already been noted by my pilot buddy who bought a gorgeous Kona Blue Stang 5.0 last year. After only 20k miles the car is noticeably "looser" and developed a nifty dash rattle. He hasn't had any shifter or trans issues (6 speed) but he swears he has heard the dreaded pinion bearing noise after a high speed highway run with me in the SRT. Turns out he has a limiter that stops the fun at about 150 mph, too bad.

It's still a beautiful car but no way will it run 200k miles unless you haul it on a trailer IMO.


Edited by SteveSRT8 (03/28/14 10:28 AM)
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#3326180 - 03/28/14 10:56 AM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: SteveSRT8]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26520
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Doog
Anyway...I just bought a new Toyota last night. Looked at the Ford Mustang...but it just wasn't put together as well. The interior looked too cheap and wasn't laid out well.

I wouldn't mind having a Mustang but right now I need a car that will go 150-200k and not be a rat trap after 100k. I have 3 friends with F-150s that are disintegrating after 120k in the salt here.


This has already been noted by my pilot buddy who bought a gorgeous Kona Blue Stang 5.0 last year. After only 20k miles the car is noticeably "looser" and developed a nifty dash rattle. He hasn't had any shifter or trans issues (6 speed) but he swears he has heard the dreaded pinion bearing noise after a high speed highway run with me in the SRT. Turns out he has a limiter that stops the fun at about 150 mph, too bad.

It's still a beautiful car but no way will it run 200k miles unless you haul it on a trailer IMO.


My old fox ran 200K without issue. But it wasn't a tight car new or at that mileage. It was a rattling plastic beast inside. But it worked well, engine out-lived the car, and never had any mechanical issues with it other than the fragile T-5.

Mustangs are what they are. The M5 is put together like a Swiss watch in comparison, no squeaks or rattles, tight as a drum and much quieter. But there is certainly something about the Mustang and the performance it offers at its price point. You aren't getting Euro-sedan (or the competition in that segment) in a Mustang. But you are getting a fast car for less money. The base GT is a deal, and its competition, the Camaro, really isn't much different. Muscle cars are "that way". Luxury sleds, like your car and mine, the CTS-V....etc are a different segment and stickered accordingly.

I have no doubt a new Mustang will run 200K. It'll be rattly when it gets there but it'll still scare the passenger out of his or her shorts at that mileage, still go sideways when you look at it wrong, still give you that "oh sweet Jesus here we go...." feeling that a Muscle car does. In essence, it will push all the right buttons just like that car has done since 1964. It is what it is and it certainly isn't for everybody. As a former Mustang owner and a current luxo-sled owner, I appreciate both for what they are smile
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#3326279 - 03/28/14 12:38 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: tenderloin]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15180
Loc: Sunny Florida
Overkill:

I really didn't mean to imply that the Stang couldn't be expected to run 200k miles, just that it has some assembly quirks or even quality issues.

I suspect the rear end overheated during our extended high speed work out in the country and that is why he heard the pinion bearing noise. It remains an amazing value, and the important thing is its owner loves it still!
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Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3326314 - 03/28/14 01:15 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: SteveSRT8]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26520
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Overkill:

I really didn't mean to imply that the Stang couldn't be expected to run 200k miles, just that it has some assembly quirks or even quality issues.

I suspect the rear end overheated during our extended high speed work out in the country and that is why he heard the pinion bearing noise. It remains an amazing value, and the important thing is its owner loves it still!


Yeah, they all did though, LOL! Comes with the performance offered at the price point IMHO. Look at the old F-bodies and how fragile their diffs were for example. The Fox cars all needed subframe connectors and would often rip out the LCA mounting points if launched on slicks frequently. The SN95 cars had similar problems, as they were based off the fox cars. Nicer interiors though and the Terminator remains one of my favourite cars of all time.

The S197 cars brought with them some different quirks. The 2nd generation of that chassis, and the massive increase in power output that went with it.... new issues again. We know the 8.8" can handle the power, it has been doing it beneath foxes with boost and spray for ages. Probably needs a better factory diff cooling setup, but is something easily solved and we know it will be solved either by Ford or the aftermarket, after all it is a Mustang wink

Same with that 150Mph limiter. We both know there's already an aftermarket delete for that puppy grin
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#3326406 - 03/28/14 03:11 PM Re: Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine [Re: SteveSRT8]
andrewg Offline


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 2920
Loc: Covington, Wa.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: andrewg
But, poor design/sales and unreliable, crummy vehicles should also be a reason to be out of business. But that wasn't the case recently with an American auto maker.
I think Toyota, on average, has produced some very fine vehicles and will continue to do so.


So then, did the 'sacred' Nippon Giant "deserve" to go out of business in the '60s-early '70s when everything they produced was a total RUSTBUCKET??
Or should they be condemned as 'government motors' themselves for benefitting from their OWN government's protectionist trade policies/tax breaks/'welfare', or even their OWN dumping policies which gave them as much a stranglehold/'leg up'/almost monopoloy as their supposed 'perfect products'?!! ???

Goose and gander.


Toyota is "nice" and GM is "evil". Nice always wins...

Just to be clear here....I never stated nor even hinted that GM is evil in my post. I was merely stating my opinion....and it was a fair one at that. It was dailydriver that had the spaz attack.
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