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#3314923 - 03/17/14 01:04 PM B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
Flame suit on, its OK.

My 91 318i drips NO oil. It runs like a top and gets good MPGs. Never notice smoke unless I WOT in first gear to around 6000 RPM; WOT in any other gear, even at high RPM doesnt do it.

But it uses around a quart every 500-750 miles, and in cold weather it has a lifter tick at cold start until it pumps up.

I was interested to read about B-12 being used as an oil flush in the past, including some correspondence from someone in their company.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2990606/1

In the past Ive tried Kreen, MMO, Ive run HDEOs, synthetics, conventionals, HM oils, etc. Nothing has helped. It seems to be less consumption around town, but I do drive the car at 3500 RPM on the highway at speed quite a bit.

So this was sort of a last-ditch effort. I had done the cleaners mentioned above, and since the last try, have probably gone through 5-10 quarts of oil. Ive tried LM MoS2 as an attempt to plug small gaps (if any existed) to reduce consumption. No dice.

So Im at the point where Ive gone down to an ILSAC GF-5, 5w-30 oil to reduce the ZDDP exposure of the catalyst to protect emissions since I live in a state where there are sniff tests every other year. The lifter I can live with, but wanted to try to see if I needed to risk pulling the cam (always a risk of damage/cracking) and replacing all lifters (at around $16 each for 16 of them), or leaving it, and to see if I wanted to even consider trying to tackle the consumption. Reality is that the car has some rust underneath, and we really need a minivan, so given our fleet of cars, this one is probably the one to sell if we were to sell one... So giving it to a kid who was interested in a project in a year or so was also in the cards.



Anyway, the sump is around 5.25 qt, so I added 8oz of B-12 into the sump, and then sucked around 2oz more down one of the vacuum lines. Idled the car for around 10 minutes until the heat came up.

I then drained the oil (mainly ST 5w-30 ILSAC CF-5), and replaced with some old SL and SM GTX 5w-30 that I had in the basement with no other use. I figured that the 5w-30 is OK in the winter and might help the lifters... it hadnt thus far.

I also figured Id be a bit more risky and tried some of the Restore CSL. Why? Why not. Yes, this is NOT a scientific test, and I dont have any compression numbers or anything else. Again, the car runs like a top, its just the comnsumption. So I added the dose for four cylinder cars.

We drove about 120 miles onver mountainous terrain in the car after the oil change. After that it sat out overnight in about 25 degree weather, which is generally sufficient to cause the lifter tick to occur, and also sometimes a tiny bit of timing chain slap at cold start.

None.

We will know soon enough if there is a chance that consumption is reduced. Im fairly uneasy having that Restore CSL stuff in there, but I figured Id try something different... Lubro Moly motor oil saver and Ceratec were also on my list, but after MoS2 and that ATP-205 seal sweller both failed for me, I figured Id give the old fashioned stuff a try. The worst that can happen is that Im out a few bucks.

Again, this isnt a scientific test. No compression, no bore pics, no spark plugs. It was too cold and I dont have enough time. It was merely to see if I could help the lifter to pump up faster by cleaning it out (after everything else failed), and to see if I could slow consumption.

So thus far ive not heard any indication of a lifter tick, which is a good result. We will see if this stays the case, as it had gotten to the point where it would be notable after a workday at temperatures over freezing. Im OK with changing lifters, but it is about impossible to determine which it is. Engine was/is clean inside but I wanted to give it a try. Im OK with one or both products being snake oil. I was surprised to see a number of good reviews for the CSL on Amazon, which is what peaked my interest. Again, Im not that easy about having it in the engine, but for a short test, its OK. And if it reduces consumption like the claim, then I would be VERY happy. If consumption remains, I dont want those metals on the converter, so Ill be changing out early, but thats why I used the old GTX...

We will see. One test (cold start) is no test, time will tell. Ill report back.

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#3314961 - 03/17/14 01:38 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
I'm puzzled by your approach. Many of the things you tried were 'cleaning' in nature. If you have changed your oil regularly, your engine should be clean enough. Your problem isn't a dirty engine - it's oil usage.

First, try to determine exactly how you are using oil. You mentioned 'no leaks'. If it is a leaking gasket, fix the leaking gasket. If it's an engine seal (other than valve stems), there are several seal-swelling products which seem to work. A visual check should determine leaking gaskets and seals.

Using oil down the valve stems probably means new rubber seals. 'Seal-sweller' might help - no real experience on that specific solution to the problem. I've owned a few vehicles with marginal stem seals and I mostly noticed this at morning start-up (puff of smoke). I genuinely don't think this hurts anything, but it may be annoying. It might actually be beneficial - a little extra start-up lubrication. Regardless, on most vehicles, stem seals can be replaced without tearing down the engine.

You are probably using oil past the piston rings. The best test for this is a long hill. Drive down at speed. About mid-way down, close the throttle and run against the engine for the rest of the trip. At the bottom of the hill, punch the throttle and look for a puff of smoke. A small puff is to be expected. If the EPA issues an air-quality alert for your region, you have a problem. It helps to have a friend on the side of the road to judge the 'puff' size. If you are clever (or a flat-lander), you can do this test on an overpass over the interstate - race up one side and close the throttle at the start of the descent.

I know you mentioned using MoS2, but you might try again. Use it for several oil changes, several thousands of miles. It doesn't work overnight, but it does work, its effect is cumulative and it works on oil usage past the rings. Liqui-Moly's product is popular and available. After the first can, you could reduce the dose to 1/2 can per oil change. More MoS2 (a whole can) won't hurt anything but it probably won't provide any particular benefit.

You could switch to a high-mileage oil, but the additives in that product are likely to be similar in effect as MoS2.

p.s. I've got my asbestos underwear on as well.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3314995 - 03/17/14 02:08 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
Ive been down this road for a while.

I have two issues - yes, engine has been well maintained with good quality oils used, but the lifter tick occurred and can be due to a faulty one or one that has a clog of something in there. So Im trying the cleaning before going the route of replacement, since it has been essentially impossible for me to identify which lifter specifically it is.

It is not possible to identify how Im using oil without a pretty big endeavour where Im pulling the engine apart. Again, no leaks, no smoke. It is not there. Intake is clean, so not blowby. There is no PCV system or EGR system in this engine. Ive tried all the standard tests, or more specifically Ive had my wife do them by command with me in pursuit, both daytime and at night with headlights on to try different modes of identifying. Again the only time I see any smoke is near redline in first gear, never at any speed in any other gear.

Ive run maxlife for at least the last 10k, and given the other various approaches sufficient time each one to work.

My first thought was that the lazy lifter may be related to the use, but I have no way to determine that without a teardown. Again, Im not so sure I care to do that given the age, rust and our need to acquire another vehicle in a year or two. This car has gotten a ton of use over the last few years, but Im not sure the ROI is there for me to do anything major.


Thus why I cared to try something a bit more aggressive for cleaning purposes, and to see if at least I can get rid of the lifter tick. If I can get that lifter working, then I can see how the consumption changes. So far so good on the lifter, but for all of this, we will see.

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#3315005 - 03/17/14 02:17 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
Phishin Offline


Registered: 05/01/12
Posts: 1479
Loc: Indiana
I know they are completely different beasts....but I thought I had this same problem as well.

My truck burns a quart of oil every 300 miles going down the highway, a quart every 700 around town.

My truck has "the tick".

"The Tick" just got a lot worse, just a few days ago. Come to find out, the flex plate is cracked in the trans. Maybe you have the same problem? Or the torque converter bolts are loose.

Not to throw a wrench into your ideas....but I just wanted to mention it since I'm currently going through the same thing.

But, when is the last time you changed the plugs? Did they all look about the same, or did one cylinder seem to be burning way more oil than the rest?


Edited by Phishin (03/17/14 02:18 PM)
_________________________
2010 Accord-LX K24: PU 5w30
2009 Subaru Forester 2.5X: M1 5w40 TDT
1990 Chevy K1500 350TBI: Frankenbrew
2008 Ruckus 50ccGET: M1R Mix

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#3315010 - 03/17/14 02:20 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Nothing wrong at all with your approach to the problem IMO.
You have a problem that an additive may help so whatever works if anything is worth the few bucks before throwing money and time into a repair.

This is a classic case for the proper use of an additive, it may well be varnish is sticking something and you want to get rid of it. Sounds like a plan to me. thumbsup
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#3315021 - 03/17/14 02:27 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: Phishin]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Phishin
I know they are completely different beasts....but I thought I had this same problem as well.

My truck burns a quart of oil every 300 miles going down the highway, a quart every 700 around town.

My truck has "the tick".

"The Tick" just got a lot worse, just a few days ago. Come to find out, the flex plate is cracked in the trans. Maybe you have the same problem? Or the torque converter bolts are loose.

Not to throw a wrench into your ideas....but I just wanted to mention it since I'm currently going through the same thing.

But, when is the last time you changed the plugs? Did they all look about the same, or did one cylinder seem to be burning way more oil than the rest?


Fortunately I dont have any torque converter on this car, and the plugs all do look clean and even (OEM two electrode plugs, FWIW).

And the tick disappears when the lifter pumps up. Then its until the next full cold start in really cold weather (doesnt happen in warm weather).

But for the last number of years, 5w- oils havent helped... So imagine my surprise when there was no tick this AM.

Ill probably kick myself for not taking some measurements or whatever when doing this, especially if it works out somewhat positively...

But its winter, cold, Im way too busy, so it is what it is, FWIW.

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#3315024 - 03/17/14 02:29 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
FWIW from a year or so ago:

DId a valve cover changeout on my 1991 BMW 318i with 140k. It seemed to be weeping some oil, and I was getting a lot in the spark plug holes, so I needed to give them a changeout.

Pulled the VC on my 318i - took some pictures. Only used my canon p&s, so not the best flash. Made the images far more brown than they were in real life.

So some pictures:

























The brownish stuff in the cast iron of the cams doesnt seem to be either sludge or varnish. There is a little bit of thick deposit on the upper portion of the valve cover, which is removed with a firm wipe of a paper towel. It isnt sludge or a globby-type coating. Very thin, just staining. The car has seen syn oils (M1, RTS 5w-40, schaeffer 9000) since Ive owned it, which was 2002 at 72k.

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#3315070 - 03/17/14 03:24 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
I'm tagging this because I dig the 318ti. I'm also curious to see what effect the B12 and Restore have.

I'd guess that if Kreen didn't "fix" it, B12 won't either, but I'm curious what effect the Restore has.

Really cool car, don't junk it. Someone in a non-emmissions state would gladly take a running BMW...
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Molon Labe

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#3315115 - 03/17/14 04:16 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
No way Im junking it. I may give it away free or cheap as charity to someone I can trust to fix what is needed and keep it going. I love the car, I just dont have the time/capability to fix the rust, and we need a bigger vehicle (minivan).

But I figure Id like to drive it for another year or so, maybe a bit more. And the better I can treat it, the better it is. Im not afraid to sink money as needed, just want there to be a need/ROI.

I figure that B-12 has a bitmore aggressive of solvents in it.

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#3315149 - 03/17/14 04:52 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
I put a can of restore in my 79 trans am, but it's actually hurt, with 30psi in #2 and 90psi in #4. I've only run it for about an hour in the driveway so far. I'll take compression readings again after I've run it for another hour or so.

I also read a lot of really good reviews on restore with several people mentioning it immediately stopped lifter tick.

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#3315276 - 03/17/14 08:03 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
Yeah, there are quite a few good reviews out there. Too many to be seeded by whatever company sells the stuff. Its been on the shelves forever...

Of course we all are trained to immediately say "snake oil", and Id generally be one of the first to say so. But I had a feeling the issue was either a ring (which are clean after Auto RX back when, Kreen, etc) or a valve seat (correlated to the lifter tick perhaps). I figured perhaps I could build up some metal precipitate there and help a tad.

I wouldn't count on taking 30 or 90 up to a high value, Ive seen a few tests online where people consistently claim maybe 5 -10 psi in a bad cylinder and no change in the good ones, just making the thing more consistent. I don't think it will magically take something from super low to high. But then again, given how well the car starts under all conditions, including this frigid winter, I don't think that I have a compression issue...

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#3315614 - 03/18/14 09:09 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Given the consumption, have you considered/tried M1 ESP to reduce the chances of hurting the catalyst?
_________________________
Molon Labe

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#3315721 - 03/18/14 11:10 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33778
Loc: New Jersey
If Im burning at a quart every 500-750 miles, why would I run such an expensive oil?

What Id like is a low-SAPS 40wt oil, but that is conventional and lower price.

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#3315818 - 03/18/14 01:11 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
I'm not sure how much you're concerned about killing the cat.

Does anyone make such a beast (low-SAPS 40wt conventional)? Maybe a HDEO?
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Molon Labe

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#3315950 - 03/18/14 03:57 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: strat81]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Originally Posted By: strat81
I'm not sure how much you're concerned about killing the cat.

Does anyone make such a beast (low-SAPS 40wt conventional)? Maybe a HDEO?

Answering my own questions:

VWB 10W-40 shows sulphated ash at 0.8:
https://valvoline.com/pdf/premium_conventional.pdf

While searching, I found it remarkable how many manufacturers don't list sulphated ash on their data sheets.
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