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#3314923 - 03/17/14 01:04 PM B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Flame suit on, its OK.

My 91 318i drips NO oil. It runs like a top and gets good MPGs. Never notice smoke unless I WOT in first gear to around 6000 RPM; WOT in any other gear, even at high RPM doesnt do it.

But it uses around a quart every 500-750 miles, and in cold weather it has a lifter tick at cold start until it pumps up.

I was interested to read about B-12 being used as an oil flush in the past, including some correspondence from someone in their company.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2990606/1

In the past Ive tried Kreen, MMO, Ive run HDEOs, synthetics, conventionals, HM oils, etc. Nothing has helped. It seems to be less consumption around town, but I do drive the car at 3500 RPM on the highway at speed quite a bit.

So this was sort of a last-ditch effort. I had done the cleaners mentioned above, and since the last try, have probably gone through 5-10 quarts of oil. Ive tried LM MoS2 as an attempt to plug small gaps (if any existed) to reduce consumption. No dice.

So Im at the point where Ive gone down to an ILSAC GF-5, 5w-30 oil to reduce the ZDDP exposure of the catalyst to protect emissions since I live in a state where there are sniff tests every other year. The lifter I can live with, but wanted to try to see if I needed to risk pulling the cam (always a risk of damage/cracking) and replacing all lifters (at around $16 each for 16 of them), or leaving it, and to see if I wanted to even consider trying to tackle the consumption. Reality is that the car has some rust underneath, and we really need a minivan, so given our fleet of cars, this one is probably the one to sell if we were to sell one... So giving it to a kid who was interested in a project in a year or so was also in the cards.



Anyway, the sump is around 5.25 qt, so I added 8oz of B-12 into the sump, and then sucked around 2oz more down one of the vacuum lines. Idled the car for around 10 minutes until the heat came up.

I then drained the oil (mainly ST 5w-30 ILSAC CF-5), and replaced with some old SL and SM GTX 5w-30 that I had in the basement with no other use. I figured that the 5w-30 is OK in the winter and might help the lifters... it hadnt thus far.

I also figured Id be a bit more risky and tried some of the Restore CSL. Why? Why not. Yes, this is NOT a scientific test, and I dont have any compression numbers or anything else. Again, the car runs like a top, its just the comnsumption. So I added the dose for four cylinder cars.

We drove about 120 miles onver mountainous terrain in the car after the oil change. After that it sat out overnight in about 25 degree weather, which is generally sufficient to cause the lifter tick to occur, and also sometimes a tiny bit of timing chain slap at cold start.

None.

We will know soon enough if there is a chance that consumption is reduced. Im fairly uneasy having that Restore CSL stuff in there, but I figured Id try something different... Lubro Moly motor oil saver and Ceratec were also on my list, but after MoS2 and that ATP-205 seal sweller both failed for me, I figured Id give the old fashioned stuff a try. The worst that can happen is that Im out a few bucks.

Again, this isnt a scientific test. No compression, no bore pics, no spark plugs. It was too cold and I dont have enough time. It was merely to see if I could help the lifter to pump up faster by cleaning it out (after everything else failed), and to see if I could slow consumption.

So thus far ive not heard any indication of a lifter tick, which is a good result. We will see if this stays the case, as it had gotten to the point where it would be notable after a workday at temperatures over freezing. Im OK with changing lifters, but it is about impossible to determine which it is. Engine was/is clean inside but I wanted to give it a try. Im OK with one or both products being snake oil. I was surprised to see a number of good reviews for the CSL on Amazon, which is what peaked my interest. Again, Im not that easy about having it in the engine, but for a short test, its OK. And if it reduces consumption like the claim, then I would be VERY happy. If consumption remains, I dont want those metals on the converter, so Ill be changing out early, but thats why I used the old GTX...

We will see. One test (cold start) is no test, time will tell. Ill report back.

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#3314961 - 03/17/14 01:38 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 634
Loc: North Bend
I'm puzzled by your approach. Many of the things you tried were 'cleaning' in nature. If you have changed your oil regularly, your engine should be clean enough. Your problem isn't a dirty engine - it's oil usage.

First, try to determine exactly how you are using oil. You mentioned 'no leaks'. If it is a leaking gasket, fix the leaking gasket. If it's an engine seal (other than valve stems), there are several seal-swelling products which seem to work. A visual check should determine leaking gaskets and seals.

Using oil down the valve stems probably means new rubber seals. 'Seal-sweller' might help - no real experience on that specific solution to the problem. I've owned a few vehicles with marginal stem seals and I mostly noticed this at morning start-up (puff of smoke). I genuinely don't think this hurts anything, but it may be annoying. It might actually be beneficial - a little extra start-up lubrication. Regardless, on most vehicles, stem seals can be replaced without tearing down the engine.

You are probably using oil past the piston rings. The best test for this is a long hill. Drive down at speed. About mid-way down, close the throttle and run against the engine for the rest of the trip. At the bottom of the hill, punch the throttle and look for a puff of smoke. A small puff is to be expected. If the EPA issues an air-quality alert for your region, you have a problem. It helps to have a friend on the side of the road to judge the 'puff' size. If you are clever (or a flat-lander), you can do this test on an overpass over the interstate - race up one side and close the throttle at the start of the descent.

I know you mentioned using MoS2, but you might try again. Use it for several oil changes, several thousands of miles. It doesn't work overnight, but it does work, its effect is cumulative and it works on oil usage past the rings. Liqui-Moly's product is popular and available. After the first can, you could reduce the dose to 1/2 can per oil change. More MoS2 (a whole can) won't hurt anything but it probably won't provide any particular benefit.

You could switch to a high-mileage oil, but the additives in that product are likely to be similar in effect as MoS2.

p.s. I've got my asbestos underwear on as well.
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#3314995 - 03/17/14 02:08 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Ive been down this road for a while.

I have two issues - yes, engine has been well maintained with good quality oils used, but the lifter tick occurred and can be due to a faulty one or one that has a clog of something in there. So Im trying the cleaning before going the route of replacement, since it has been essentially impossible for me to identify which lifter specifically it is.

It is not possible to identify how Im using oil without a pretty big endeavour where Im pulling the engine apart. Again, no leaks, no smoke. It is not there. Intake is clean, so not blowby. There is no PCV system or EGR system in this engine. Ive tried all the standard tests, or more specifically Ive had my wife do them by command with me in pursuit, both daytime and at night with headlights on to try different modes of identifying. Again the only time I see any smoke is near redline in first gear, never at any speed in any other gear.

Ive run maxlife for at least the last 10k, and given the other various approaches sufficient time each one to work.

My first thought was that the lazy lifter may be related to the use, but I have no way to determine that without a teardown. Again, Im not so sure I care to do that given the age, rust and our need to acquire another vehicle in a year or two. This car has gotten a ton of use over the last few years, but Im not sure the ROI is there for me to do anything major.


Thus why I cared to try something a bit more aggressive for cleaning purposes, and to see if at least I can get rid of the lifter tick. If I can get that lifter working, then I can see how the consumption changes. So far so good on the lifter, but for all of this, we will see.

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#3315005 - 03/17/14 02:17 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
Phishin Online   content


Registered: 05/01/12
Posts: 1466
Loc: Indiana
I know they are completely different beasts....but I thought I had this same problem as well.

My truck burns a quart of oil every 300 miles going down the highway, a quart every 700 around town.

My truck has "the tick".

"The Tick" just got a lot worse, just a few days ago. Come to find out, the flex plate is cracked in the trans. Maybe you have the same problem? Or the torque converter bolts are loose.

Not to throw a wrench into your ideas....but I just wanted to mention it since I'm currently going through the same thing.

But, when is the last time you changed the plugs? Did they all look about the same, or did one cylinder seem to be burning way more oil than the rest?


Edited by Phishin (03/17/14 02:18 PM)
_________________________
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#3315010 - 03/17/14 02:20 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9749
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Nothing wrong at all with your approach to the problem IMO.
You have a problem that an additive may help so whatever works if anything is worth the few bucks before throwing money and time into a repair.

This is a classic case for the proper use of an additive, it may well be varnish is sticking something and you want to get rid of it. Sounds like a plan to me. thumbsup
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#3315021 - 03/17/14 02:27 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: Phishin]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Phishin
I know they are completely different beasts....but I thought I had this same problem as well.

My truck burns a quart of oil every 300 miles going down the highway, a quart every 700 around town.

My truck has "the tick".

"The Tick" just got a lot worse, just a few days ago. Come to find out, the flex plate is cracked in the trans. Maybe you have the same problem? Or the torque converter bolts are loose.

Not to throw a wrench into your ideas....but I just wanted to mention it since I'm currently going through the same thing.

But, when is the last time you changed the plugs? Did they all look about the same, or did one cylinder seem to be burning way more oil than the rest?


Fortunately I dont have any torque converter on this car, and the plugs all do look clean and even (OEM two electrode plugs, FWIW).

And the tick disappears when the lifter pumps up. Then its until the next full cold start in really cold weather (doesnt happen in warm weather).

But for the last number of years, 5w- oils havent helped... So imagine my surprise when there was no tick this AM.

Ill probably kick myself for not taking some measurements or whatever when doing this, especially if it works out somewhat positively...

But its winter, cold, Im way too busy, so it is what it is, FWIW.

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#3315024 - 03/17/14 02:29 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
FWIW from a year or so ago:

DId a valve cover changeout on my 1991 BMW 318i with 140k. It seemed to be weeping some oil, and I was getting a lot in the spark plug holes, so I needed to give them a changeout.

Pulled the VC on my 318i - took some pictures. Only used my canon p&s, so not the best flash. Made the images far more brown than they were in real life.

So some pictures:

























The brownish stuff in the cast iron of the cams doesnt seem to be either sludge or varnish. There is a little bit of thick deposit on the upper portion of the valve cover, which is removed with a firm wipe of a paper towel. It isnt sludge or a globby-type coating. Very thin, just staining. The car has seen syn oils (M1, RTS 5w-40, schaeffer 9000) since Ive owned it, which was 2002 at 72k.

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#3315070 - 03/17/14 03:24 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
I'm tagging this because I dig the 318ti. I'm also curious to see what effect the B12 and Restore have.

I'd guess that if Kreen didn't "fix" it, B12 won't either, but I'm curious what effect the Restore has.

Really cool car, don't junk it. Someone in a non-emmissions state would gladly take a running BMW...
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Molon Labe

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#3315115 - 03/17/14 04:16 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
No way Im junking it. I may give it away free or cheap as charity to someone I can trust to fix what is needed and keep it going. I love the car, I just dont have the time/capability to fix the rust, and we need a bigger vehicle (minivan).

But I figure Id like to drive it for another year or so, maybe a bit more. And the better I can treat it, the better it is. Im not afraid to sink money as needed, just want there to be a need/ROI.

I figure that B-12 has a bitmore aggressive of solvents in it.

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#3315149 - 03/17/14 04:52 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
I put a can of restore in my 79 trans am, but it's actually hurt, with 30psi in #2 and 90psi in #4. I've only run it for about an hour in the driveway so far. I'll take compression readings again after I've run it for another hour or so.

I also read a lot of really good reviews on restore with several people mentioning it immediately stopped lifter tick.

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#3315276 - 03/17/14 08:03 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Yeah, there are quite a few good reviews out there. Too many to be seeded by whatever company sells the stuff. Its been on the shelves forever...

Of course we all are trained to immediately say "snake oil", and Id generally be one of the first to say so. But I had a feeling the issue was either a ring (which are clean after Auto RX back when, Kreen, etc) or a valve seat (correlated to the lifter tick perhaps). I figured perhaps I could build up some metal precipitate there and help a tad.

I wouldn't count on taking 30 or 90 up to a high value, Ive seen a few tests online where people consistently claim maybe 5 -10 psi in a bad cylinder and no change in the good ones, just making the thing more consistent. I don't think it will magically take something from super low to high. But then again, given how well the car starts under all conditions, including this frigid winter, I don't think that I have a compression issue...

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#3315614 - 03/18/14 09:09 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Given the consumption, have you considered/tried M1 ESP to reduce the chances of hurting the catalyst?
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#3315721 - 03/18/14 11:10 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
If Im burning at a quart every 500-750 miles, why would I run such an expensive oil?

What Id like is a low-SAPS 40wt oil, but that is conventional and lower price.

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#3315818 - 03/18/14 01:11 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
I'm not sure how much you're concerned about killing the cat.

Does anyone make such a beast (low-SAPS 40wt conventional)? Maybe a HDEO?
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#3315950 - 03/18/14 03:57 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: strat81]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Originally Posted By: strat81
I'm not sure how much you're concerned about killing the cat.

Does anyone make such a beast (low-SAPS 40wt conventional)? Maybe a HDEO?

Answering my own questions:

VWB 10W-40 shows sulphated ash at 0.8:
https://valvoline.com/pdf/premium_conventional.pdf

While searching, I found it remarkable how many manufacturers don't list sulphated ash on their data sheets.
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#3316972 - 03/19/14 12:52 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: strat81]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: strat81
Originally Posted By: strat81
I'm not sure how much you're concerned about killing the cat.

Does anyone make such a beast (low-SAPS 40wt conventional)? Maybe a HDEO?

Answering my own questions:

VWB 10W-40 shows sulphated ash at 0.8:
https://valvoline.com/pdf/premium_conventional.pdf

While searching, I found it remarkable how many manufacturers don't list sulphated ash on their data sheets.


Last night around 10pm I emailed Valvoline, Pennzoil and WPP (Supertech) for zinc and NOACK values for their oils, as each was either deficient in the data in the PDS, or there was no PDS. Before 830 eastern time, all three had responded. Pretty impressive.

Even the 20w-50 from these vendors have low ZDDP levels, and the 20w-50 oils have noack of <6%!

Since my 318i is specified for 20w-50 as a recommended oil, I may try it to see how consumption looks... Assuming the GTX 5w-30 I have in there is consumed fast.

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#3317064 - 03/19/14 02:17 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Finding a 20w50 with elevated ZDDP might be tough. Can you use a 15w40 instead?
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#3317167 - 03/19/14 04:06 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
I DO NOT want elevated ZDDP, that was my reason for asking. API ratings allow for higher ZDDP in heavier grades, which I DIDNT want.

So I was glad to see these oils didnt.

Certainly high ZDDP has its place, but not for a car consuming oil.

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#3317175 - 03/19/14 04:14 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 3754
Loc: north carolina
Can you tell by the spark plugs if the consumption is related to one of the cylinders?
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#3317184 - 03/19/14 04:23 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Last night around 10pm I emailed Valvoline, Pennzoil and WPP (Supertech) for zinc and NOACK values for their oils, as each was either deficient in the data in the PDS, or there was no PDS. Before 830 eastern time, all three had responded. Pretty impressive.

Even the 20w-50 from these vendors have low ZDDP levels, and the 20w-50 oils have noack of <6%!

Since my 318i is specified for 20w-50 as a recommended oil, I may try it to see how consumption looks... Assuming the GTX 5w-30 I have in there is consumed fast.


Don't be shy... share what they told you.
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#3317495 - 03/19/14 09:16 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: strat81]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: strat81
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Last night around 10pm I emailed Valvoline, Pennzoil and WPP (Supertech) for zinc and NOACK values for their oils, as each was either deficient in the data in the PDS, or there was no PDS. Before 830 eastern time, all three had responded. Pretty impressive.

Even the 20w-50 from these vendors have low ZDDP levels, and the 20w-50 oils have noack of <6%!

Since my 318i is specified for 20w-50 as a recommended oil, I may try it to see how consumption looks... Assuming the GTX 5w-30 I have in there is consumed fast.


Don't be shy... share what they told you.


Well valvoline was mostly useless. They post generic and vague numbers for noack, and that's all they could say.

Pennzoil confirmed that their zinc levels in their 10w-40 and 20w-50 were 800ppm.

WPP sent me full data sheets, and their zinc is 850ppm, but noack is 5.1for the 20w-50! Same zinc for the 10w-40, but noack is 13.5 for the hm and the regular. The 10w-40 hm is more viscous at 100c.

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#3319331 - 03/21/14 07:56 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
steve20 Offline


Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3069
Loc: NJ
J:
I do not know which engine you have---to tell you the truth, I've never even driven a BMW, but I can tell you, there is a PCV system. It may be primitive, or it may be a fixed port type, but you do have one.If you do not think you have one, and have never serviced it, maybe that is where the problem is?
Steve
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#3319463 - 03/21/14 10:42 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: steve20]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 634
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: steve20
I do not know which engine you have---to tell you the truth, I've never even driven a BMW, but I can tell you, there is a PCV system. It may be primitive, or it may be a fixed port type, but you do have one.If you do not think you have one, and have never serviced it, maybe that is where the problem is?

Steve is right on this. The 318i (E30 series vehicle) was made from 1988-1992. All vehicles in that period had a PCV valve and oil vapor collection system. If the PCV valve becomes clogged, it can result in positive crankcase pressure, which can cause oil to leak around gaskets, like the valve cover gasket, or pass through shaft seals.

If you can locate the PCV valve, remove it and test it by shaking. If it rattles, it's okay. Otherwise, replace. For whatever reasons, it's not considered good style to clean a PCV valve.

In an earlier message, I suggested you concentrate on locating the cause of oil usage - leaking gaskets, bad shaft seals, bad valve stem seals, leaking past the rings, a bad head gasket. But, try to determine the cause first - then worry about fixes. There are fairly simple tests for each of these maladies. But some cures (e.g. a solvent added to the oil) may aggravate other problems (e.g. oil leaking past a gasket or past the rings). A shotgun approach will probably be counterproductive.
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#3319589 - 03/22/14 08:19 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
It does NOT have PCV with a valve. There are a set of breather hoses which are all clear and in fine shape. There are no external oil leaks, and the plugs stay good looking. I did have soom seepage from a spark plug hole seal but fixed that long ago with no change.

While newer iterations of the M42 used a disc shaped PCV valve, this one has just an open breather and no EGR either.

The lifter tick seems to have been due to some dirt that didn't come clean by other solvents and oils. It is gone. I was ok with replacement, but it was impossible to identify which one specifically was the ticker. Remember that once warmed up, it was silent. So my cost would have been $16x16, not a ton of money but I'm glad if it's gone.

As far as consumption, I'm not counting on any of this to fix it. Chasing it down may or may not occur. Given that my OM specs 20w-50, I may try that. Most of my driving is high speed interstate with rpms at 3500 or more. Every decent OM out there indicates that high speed driving can cause consumption and that a heavier oil may be needed. Easy test, especially since 20w-50 oils have NOACK of 5 vs 10-15 even for 40wt oils. Easy experiment. I can assure everyone that the breather system is clear and open. Considering that we will be buying a minivan before too long, the car runs beautifully, good MPGs, and there are no obvious leaks (park on white concrete without any issues or spots) the extent that I spend time on this versus our 16 month old is dubious.

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#3319615 - 03/22/14 09:28 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 634
Loc: North Bend
One quick thought: there are more than a few forums devoted to BMW automobiles. On such a forum, you might determine what is normal oil usage for your vehicle. Some vehicles simply use more oil than others. Your usage might be 'normal'.
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#3319732 - 03/22/14 11:43 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 634
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It does NOT have PCV with a valve. <snip> While newer iterations of the M42 used a disc shaped PCV valve, this one has just an open breather and no EGR either.

The breather hoses probably go to the valve cover, right?

Are you sure someone hasn't removed the PCV valve? It's been years since I've been under the hood of this vehicle, but it should be located next to the outlet elbow and look vaguely like this (well, not totally trashed ;-):

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2008 Corolla LE

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#3320645 - 03/23/14 08:42 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Bummer those pictures don't load. Nope, no valve, wasn't put in until one of the later years of the m42/44 in the e36.

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#3320673 - 03/23/14 09:15 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2911
Loc: Ohio
J:

Lets see what the outside of the car looks like. Since we don't get to see these everyday and the guys like pictures.

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#3320978 - 03/23/14 03:02 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: satinsilver]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
J:

Lets see what the outside of the car looks like. Since we don't get to see these everyday and the guys like pictures.


When it's cleaned up and not salty.




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#3321696 - 03/24/14 07:54 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
A little over 300 miles in, but zero, absolutely no consumption... And this is on very old GTX 5W30... It had been consuming Supertech in the same grade very readily at the same rate as was historically seen...

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#3322119 - 03/24/14 02:41 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2911
Loc: Ohio
Thanks J, looks real good. approved

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#3322433 - 03/24/14 08:14 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: satinsilver]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Thanks J, looks real good. approved


Did you go talk to that girl?

On topic, the restore did nothing for my poor compression. It's still less than 30psi. Something else is going on. Broken piston or head gasket.

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#3322766 - 03/25/14 08:00 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Over 500 miles of high speed driving with just the slightest tick below full on the dipstick. I hope this remains the case. I've seen people talk about consumption coming back in some situations, but I hope not.

I'll put on another 600+ miles this week most likely so it will be interesting to see how the trend plays out.

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#3325078 - 03/27/14 08:22 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Over 1000 miles of all highway use and no further consumption on 5w-30 conv.

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#3325410 - 03/27/14 01:57 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8123
Loc: NorthEast
This is looking very promising. Unfortunately, we will not know which one (B12 or Restore) did the trick though :-(

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#3325505 - 03/27/14 03:41 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: Vikas]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: Vikas
This is looking very promising. Unfortunately, we will not know which one (B12 or Restore) did the trick though :-(


Thats the problem with changing more than one thing at a time. As far as consumption goes, my bet is the Restore.
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3325721 - 03/27/14 08:38 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
My ranger consumes a quart every 1000 miles. I've tried high mileage oils that have done nothing to slow the consumption. I read this thread a week ago or so and figured why not give the restore a shot. 350 miles into the addition of restore and I'm right at the full mark on the dipstick. Woo huu! I'll be checking weekly to see it this remains the case, and update on this thread.

PS. I'm not a believer in oil additives but figured why not give it a shot.
_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3326802 - 03/28/14 09:59 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: KCJeep]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Vikas
This is looking very promising. Unfortunately, we will not know which one (B12 or Restore) did the trick though :-(


Thats the problem with changing more than one thing at a time. As far as consumption goes, my bet is the Restore.


Yes, it is, but given the weather and need for service, I wasn't turning this into a science project.

Frankly I don't really see the big deal anyway, as both of these products are ubiquitous and easy for anyone to try.

If one searches, especially in jeep forums, there are a lot of reports that restore has quieted lifters. I honestly don't see how it would have stopped consumption.

Others have used solvent flushes successfully to prevent consumption by cleaning rings and oil drain ports. So we may have seen an effect with both. It would be easy enough on a consuming vehicle for someone to do a flush right before the oil change, measure the consumption, then add the restore only if there was no change.

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#3340406 - 04/12/14 03:07 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
750 miles and I'm just a hair below the full mark 1/32-1/16 ish, I'd be more than a half quart low by now before adding the restore. I'll keep checking, if this stuff keeps the consumption as slow as it has I won't have to top up at all through a 6 month oci..... Fingers crossedX


Edited by fordranger03 (04/12/14 03:09 AM)
_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3340651 - 04/12/14 12:26 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
There is some evidence here that Restore is hard on or clogs filters FYI. But it does seem to help engines on their last legs. Not sure it is intended for or will work as well long term. Let us know how it goes!
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3345195 - 04/17/14 01:15 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: KCJeep]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is some evidence here that Restore is hard on or clogs filters FYI. But it does seem to help engines on their last legs. Not sure it is intended for or will work as well long term. Let us know how it goes!


After reading your comment I did a little searching and found the thread with the guy that used 2 cans of restore along with mos2, his filter looked clogged and slimy. I got scared and went ahead and did an OC, first time I've ever taken a filter apart, it was a napa silver. I thought it looked absolutely fine, no clogging and no sludgy slime, it looked like any other clean 3.5 k filter I've seen on bitog. I think the guy with the clogged filter may have overdone it with 2 treatments of restore and a dosing of mos2. Needless to say, I put 1000 miles on the restore with basically no consumption.

I'll post a pic if anyone would be interested. I'm going to need to take it with the fiancées iphone. I tried to with my phone but the pic came out horrible.


Edited by fordranger03 (04/17/14 01:17 AM)
_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3345198 - 04/17/14 01:42 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
^ meant to say very minimal consumption. I not sure 1/32-1/16" below full is even a reliable measurement.

Oh and I re-dosed with another 6cyl can of restore since everything looked good. They've changed the amount, it was 15 ounces after their bottle change its down to 12.5 ounces.


Edited by fordranger03 (04/17/14 01:46 AM)
_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3345242 - 04/17/14 05:11 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: fordranger03]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21170
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: fordranger03
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is some evidence here that Restore is hard on or clogs filters FYI. But it does seem to help engines on their last legs. Not sure it is intended for or will work as well long term. Let us know how it goes!


After reading your comment I did a little searching and found the thread with the guy that used 2 cans of restore along with mos2, his filter looked clogged and slimy. I got scared and went ahead and did an OC, first time I've ever taken a filter apart, it was a napa silver. I thought it looked absolutely fine, no clogging and no sludgy slime, it looked like any other clean 3.5 k filter I've seen on bitog. I think the guy with the clogged filter may have overdone it with 2 treatments of restore and a dosing of mos2. Needless to say, I put 1000 miles on the restore with basically no consumption.

I'll post a pic if anyone would be interested. I'm going to need to take it with the fiancées iphone. I tried to with my phone but the pic came out horrible.


With two doses of Restore and a dose of MoS2, what did the guy expect to find in his filter? Restore is a good product for keeping a beater out of the junkyard a little longer. The product works as advertised in many applications on their last legs. A few important things to consider:

1. Don't use it in a healthy engine.
2. Use it as directed.
3. An engine ready for the junkyard is what it is. Don't expect miracles, however you might be pleasantly surprised.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


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#3345435 - 04/17/14 10:08 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: fordranger03]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: fordranger03
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is some evidence here that Restore is hard on or clogs filters FYI. But it does seem to help engines on their last legs. Not sure it is intended for or will work as well long term. Let us know how it goes!


After reading your comment I did a little searching and found the thread with the guy that used 2 cans of restore along with mos2, his filter looked clogged and slimy. I got scared and went ahead and did an OC, first time I've ever taken a filter apart, it was a napa silver. I thought it looked absolutely fine, no clogging and no sludgy slime, it looked like any other clean 3.5 k filter I've seen on bitog. I think the guy with the clogged filter may have overdone it with 2 treatments of restore and a dosing of mos2. Needless to say, I put 1000 miles on the restore with basically no consumption.

I'll post a pic if anyone would be interested. I'm going to need to take it with the fiancées iphone. I tried to with my phone but the pic came out horrible.


Good to know, thanks! Any pics by chance?
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3366446 - 05/09/14 09:35 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33688
Loc: New Jersey
Status update.

When I had first started this I used some old Castrol GTX 5W-30 that I had laying around in the basement. Why? Because at the time, the weather was still rather cold and I was controllably using the car so it wasn't a concern. Now that it's getting warmer and of course I do a lot of highway driving, so I didn't want to leave an old technology 30 weight oil in the car. Because it looked like consumption and noise was kicked I decided to go with Chevron Delo 5W40.

I drained the oil, and pulled the center pin on the cartridge filter to let the oil in there drain out, and then refilled back with the Chevron oil. Engine was nice and smooth and economy was good all is well. Yesterday I drove the car to and from work like multiple other times when Ive used the car since replacing the oil. Today after only sitting maybe 12 hours, with mid 60s temperature (but colder overnight), this morning I heard the faintest tick from my engine.

I've been very careful to listen closely for any noises ever since I did the experiment. I've never heard anything to indicate that there was any basis for the car ticking anymore. Including in warmer and colder weather.

So I'll need to watch this closely and see what happens especially if I hear noises in warmer weather. It will be interesting. Obviously all of the restore CSL was mainly drained out when I replaced the Castrol oil with the Chevron oil. So if I hear ticking again occurring my plan is to add in the correct amount of restore.

The restore product is widely used on jeep forums to quiet noisy lifters so I imagine that is indeed what is doing the job right now.

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#3370790 - 05/13/14 06:50 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: fordranger03]
Phishin Online   content


Registered: 05/01/12
Posts: 1466
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: fordranger03
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is some evidence here that Restore is hard on or clogs filters FYI. But it does seem to help engines on their last legs. Not sure it is intended for or will work as well long term. Let us know how it goes!


After reading your comment I did a little searching and found the thread with the guy that used 2 cans of restore along with mos2, his filter looked clogged and slimy.


Yep, that was me. My truck has 11k miles on it since I first started using Restore. She's running as well as she ever has.

I'm not 100% sure about the cause of my "slimey" filter. That old 350 was pretty sludged up when I bought it. So, it could have still been sludge coming out of her.

I recently changed the oil and added another dose of Restore. Consumption is still tame compared to what it used to be. Engine runs and idles better than it ever has. I still like to remove my plugs and clean them every 3-5k miles....All that Restore and oil burning can sure foul up a plug and make an old truck run a bit rough.

But I'm pleased with Restore!!
_________________________
2010 Accord-LX K24: PU 5w30
2009 Subaru Forester 2.5X: M1 5w40 TDT
1990 Chevy K1500 350TBI: Frankenbrew
2008 Ruckus 50ccGET: M1R Mix

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#3372268 - 05/15/14 08:51 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Thank you for that update!

Have you cut any filters where Restore was used since?
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3372972 - 05/16/14 01:15 AM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
As an update on my restore experiment. I did an early oil change thinking restore may have clogged my filter. I found it had not so used restore once again on the latest oil change. 750 miles into this new oci with restore and I am down half a quart.

I was hoping I had found a solution to my consumption problem. the restore worked on the tail end of the prior oci but for some reason the consumption has returned. Any ideas? High mileage oils do not help and the PCV is fairly new.

_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3373641 - 05/16/14 08:22 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Probably your only option left is to go thicker. Some HM oils are not thicker at all. Which one were you using? You could go up a grade and see what happens.
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3373702 - 05/16/14 09:49 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: KCJeep]
fordranger03 Offline


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 101
Loc: HI, USA
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Probably your only option left is to go thicker. Some HM oils are not thicker at all. Which one were you using? You could go up a grade and see what happens.


I've stepped up to 10w30 two up from the factory 5w20. I've tried 20wt maxlife, 30wt gtx hm and most recently 30wt napa hm.

I may try 10w40 maxlife or a conventional 10w30 with liqui moly motor oil saver. Which would you go with next?
_________________________
03 Ranger 3.0 - Ace hardware 10w40, Lubro Moly MOSVR, Napa Gold
09 Yaris - Napa synthetic 10w30, Fram EG, 5k oci

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#3373730 - 05/16/14 10:22 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4573
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Defy and Pennzoil are both "thick" HM brews. So they might be a good choice in 10w30 or 10w40, or Maxlife 10w40. But if you are already up to 10w30's from 5w20 I'm not optimistic.
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 39k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 176k!

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#3378724 - 05/22/14 08:46 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: JHZR2]
andyd Offline


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 3753
Loc: Marshfield , MA
dino 20w 50 or straight 30. Restore is for selling a beat up engine to a rube. My wife bought a Grand Wagoneer at a yard sale. The engine was clattery, . I drained the oil and put 10w30 back in. It sounded like shaking a can with marbles in it. I eventually had the re-manned engine in my 83 swapped into it. The engine ran with no oil pressure until the cam wore down enough to start spitting out push rods
_________________________
2 1988 BMW 528e 20w50 dino, STP filter

1994 Ranger ,600$ Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

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#3391857 - 06/07/14 11:38 PM Re: B-12 Chemtool and Restore CSL [Re: KCJeep]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Not familiar with this engine, but I know the 1ZZ-FE in 8th gen Corollas was built with pistons with too few (and/or too small) oil return holes. Eventually, they clod and you get consumption as the oil can't flow through the clogged return holes and, instead, slips past the rings and burns off.

In this instance, going thicker makes the issue worse, since even less oil can pass through the holes, and the solution is to go thinner (and it's been commonly found that, in these instances, if going thinner slows consumption, it continues slowing as the newfound oil flow clears out the clogged holes over time, until it eventually stops).

Again, I'm not familiar with this engine, I'm just throwing this information out there, as I've had this issue with 2 1ZZ's and neither required a teardown to fix, just thinner oil for a couple OCIs. My 2000 is back to consuming, but then I'm running a 40 in it (some of you have seen the thread and know why). It was quite happy on a 0w20 for a while, though, consumption had fallen to almost nil.

Try thicker first, of course; but if that doesn't help, or makes it worse, go down a grade, or blend 50/50 with a lighter grade, to see if that helps.

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