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#3311427 - 03/14/14 07:31 AM DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1
chad8 Offline


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: michigan
It has been around since 1993. Composed of 85% lab grade ethanol and 15% proprietary ingredients , mainly butyl acetate.
I want to use it as a fuel stabilizer and varnish remover in boat motors.

http://www.davidliles.com/index.html

http://www.davidliles.com/testing-david-liles-ethanol-fuels.html

http://link.email.ollies.us/YesConnect/HtmlMessagePreview?a=wiFjP-qtzXGHt4GvO5GpIf

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#3316606 - 03/19/14 08:18 AM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: chad8]
Wilhelm_D Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 818
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Originally Posted By: chad8
It has been around since 1993. Composed of 85% lab grade ethanol and 15% proprietary ingredients , mainly butyl acetate. I want to use it as a fuel stabilizer and varnish remover in boat motors.

Ethanol is not something I would normally want to put in my gasoline.

Damage from acetobacter bacteria

Ethanol issues

Some of the claims for this product are dubious.

"Removes water from tank and prevents fuel line from freezing"

Yes, if you take a tank of 100% gasoline, add a small quantity of ethanol, run the engine until the tank is nearly dry, and then refill with 100% gasoline. The ethanol combines with water and with gasoline, so it carries the water into the combustion chamber. Ethanol is what they used to sell as "dry gas".

However, if you leave it in the tank, ethanol attracts water, and you'll wind up with more water rather than less in the tank.

"Boosts octane by 9.2 points"

In general ethanol should provide a modest increase in octane in gasoline. By how many points depends on the measurement method and the gasoline to which it is added. 9.2 points comes from thin air.

"Improves engine performance and power"

In general probably not.

"Reduces emissions by 35% or more"

Possibly in a carburated vehicle. See "oxygenates fuel".

"Increases fuel mileage by 23% or more"

Ethanol has fewer BTUs of energy by volume than gasoline. You can't increase fuel mileage by reducing the energy contained in each gallon of fuel.

"Oxygenates fuel"

In order to understand what this means you need to understand what a stoichiometric air/fuel mixture is.

In a combustion reaction, oxygen reacts with the fuel, and the point where exactly all oxygen is consumed and all fuel burned is defined as the stoichiometric point.

With more oxygen (overstoichiometric combustion), some of the oxygen stays unreacted.

If combustion is incomplete due to lack of sufficient oxygen, some of the fuel remains unreacted.

The ratio for gasoline is 14.7:1. Each unit of gasoline by mass requires 14.7 units by mass of oxygen, or 6.8% fuel by mass.

The ratio for ethanol is 9:1. Each unit of ethanol by mass requires 9 unites of oxygen by mass, or 11.1% by mass.

In other words, ethanol is a lower energy fuel than gasoline.

As you add ethanol to gasoline in an engine which has a fixed fuel/air delivery system, such as an engine with a carburetor, your mixture becomes increasingly overstoichiometric (explained above). This is what "oxygenates" means.

In engines which have variable fuel/air delivery with a feedback loop, such as most automobiles today, this doesn't happen because the system modifies the fuel/air ratio to obtain a stoichiometric mixture.

"Don't Dump your Old Fuel (up to 10 years old) Just Add (DLEF)"

This is directly contrary to experience, which is that ethanol-containing gasoline breaks down faster and with more dire consequences than gasoline without ethanol.

"Easier starting"

Actually the contrary is true. First, as noted above, vehicles with a fixed fuel/air ratio delivery system will run "lean" with added ethanol, which makes starting harder. In addition ethanol is less volatile than gasoline, which also makes starting harder.

"Eliminates engine knocking caused by low grade fuel"

As noted above ethanol can provide a slight increase in octane. In modern engines with knock sensors this is basically meaningless.

"Removes dirt, gums, & varnishes from fuel system"

And adds water.

"Helps prevent rust and corrosion"

As noted, to the contrary.

Save your money. You're already getting more ethanol than you need in the gasoline you buy, and the refinery is already adding the additives to clean the fuel system and offset the ill effects of ethanol.

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#3317111 - 03/19/14 03:03 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Wilhelm_D]
Number21 Offline


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 230
Loc: OR
Scam. That website has snake oil written all over it. With 10% ethanol being required almost everywhere, they are simply admitting that 85% of their product is entirely worthless. Like a cleaner that contains 85% water. I have my doubts about the other 15% as well. If it is mostly alcohol a small dose is not going to raise octane like they claim, either.

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#3317389 - 03/19/14 07:54 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Wilhelm_D]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2311
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D


"Removes water from tank and prevents fuel line from freezing"

Yes, if you take a tank of 100% gasoline, add a small quantity of ethanol, run the engine until the tank is nearly dry, and then refill with 100% gasoline. The ethanol combines with water and with gasoline, so it carries the water into the combustion chamber. Ethanol is what they used to sell as "dry gas".

Most freeze-line products actually use methanol or isopropanol. However, a standard oxygenated gas shouldn't have any problems with a small amount of water. Ethanol will do the same thing. Red Line water remover is maybe the outlier.

Most fuel stabilizers seem to be in an ethanol carrier.

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#3318022 - 03/20/14 12:29 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: y_p_w]
Wilhelm_D Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 818
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most freeze-line products actually use methanol or isopropanol.

Not in my experience.

Isopropyl alcohol is not uncommon, but methanol attacks aluminum and elastomers.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most fuel stabilizers seem to be in an ethanol carrier.

Not in my experience. The largest selling stabilizer, STABIL, is 95% "Petroleum (distillate), hydrotreated light".

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#3318338 - 03/20/14 07:04 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: chad8]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
PU 5w20 | MC 910 | Castrol Mercon V

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#3318432 - 03/20/14 08:25 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Hyde244]
Number21 Offline


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 230
Loc: OR
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.


In theory, it works, in practice, it doesn't. According to the website the treatment ratio is 1oz per gallon. That will NOT raise octane by any noticeable amount. It will raise the octane, maybe from 87 to 87.1.

With that said it cost $10 plus $6.95 shipping. If you want it that bad go buy some ethanol at the pharmacy or liquor store for much less.

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#3318436 - 03/20/14 08:27 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Number21]
Number21 Offline


Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 230
Loc: OR
I just noticed it claims to restore old fuel up to 10 years old. Just add their product. What a steaming crock of excrement.

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#3318454 - 03/20/14 08:47 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Hyde244]
Wilhelm_D Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 818
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.

Not necessarily. "Power" refers to getting work done - more power, more work.

For the sake of discussion we'll use BTUs. A gallon of gasoline provides 114,000 BTUs. A gallon of ethanol contains 76,100 BTUs.

To get the same work done as a gallon of gasoline, we need about 1.5 times as much ethanol.

If the fuel remains constant, increasing the compression ratio increases power, but when we change fuels there are many more factors to be considered.

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#3318464 - 03/20/14 08:59 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Wilhelm_D]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2311
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most freeze-line products actually use methanol or isopropanol.

Not in my experience.

Isopropyl alcohol is not uncommon, but methanol attacks aluminum and elastomers.

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Most fuel stabilizers seem to be in an ethanol carrier.

Not in my experience. The largest selling stabilizer, STABIL, is 95% "Petroleum (distillate), hydrotreated light".




HEET from Gold Eagle is the biggest selling water remover/antifreeze sold in the US. I've yet to see an auto parts store that doesn't stock it, and it's the one sold at every Walmart. It contains methanol, and probably a boatload of corrosion inhibitors. The MSDS (apparently has to be requested but there are various versions that have been compiled and made online) says 99% methanol and 1% "proprietary additive". I've seen many of the other ones like Pyroil, and they've got the warning messages in big bold letters.

Here's the back of a bottle of HEET:



I remember Sta-Bil used to have an ethanol-based formula. Definitely another similar product I used was ethanol based. I haven't bought a fuel stabilizer in maybe 10 years.

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#3318469 - 03/20/14 09:03 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Number21]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2311
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.


In theory, it works, in practice, it doesn't. According to the website the treatment ratio is 1oz per gallon. That will NOT raise octane by any noticeable amount. It will raise the octane, maybe from 87 to 87.1.

With that said it cost $10 plus $6.95 shipping. If you want it that bad go buy some ethanol at the pharmacy or liquor store for much less.

Most octane boosters in a can put in small print that a "point" means and increase of 0.1 AKI octane rating.

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#3318479 - 03/20/14 09:12 PM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Wilhelm_D]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2311
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.

Not necessarily. "Power" refers to getting work done - more power, more work.

For the sake of discussion we'll use BTUs. A gallon of gasoline provides 114,000 BTUs. A gallon of ethanol contains 76,100 BTUs.

To get the same work done as a gallon of gasoline, we need about 1.5 times as much ethanol.

If the fuel remains constant, increasing the compression ratio increases power, but when we change fuels there are many more factors to be considered.


Power is energy per unit time. 1 joule is 1 kg*m^2/s^2. 1 watt is 1 kg*m^2/s^3 or equivalent to one joule transferred per second.

It's kind of a fine point for physics geeks, but work is mechanical in nature. Energy can be in many different forms, whether it's thermal, electrical, potential, mechanical, etc. I think you're referring to the thermal potential of a liquid fuel. And one issue with engines is theoretical efficiency of the engine.

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#3318649 - 03/21/14 03:54 AM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: y_p_w]
Wilhelm_D Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 818
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
It contains methanol, and probably a boatload of corrosion inhibitors.

All denatured ethanol in the US contains methanol.

That's how they "denature" it.

Denatured Alcohol

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#3318723 - 03/21/14 07:41 AM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: y_p_w]
Wilhelm_D Offline


Registered: 01/28/09
Posts: 818
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Power is energy per unit time.

Indeed - the rate at which work is done. The most common measurement for passenger vehicles is "horsepower" and the most common conversion factor is James Watts' 1 hp = 746 watts

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#3318800 - 03/21/14 08:53 AM Re: DAVID LILES ETHAMAX - IS IT WORTH $1 [Re: Wilhelm_D]
Hyde244 Offline


Registered: 12/29/12
Posts: 647
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
On the topic of power and performance increase from ethanol, 100% ethanol does carry a higher octane rating than gasoline.

http://www.racegas.com/article/11

This would boost power in higher-compression engines.


In theory, it works, in practice, it doesn't. According to the website the treatment ratio is 1oz per gallon. That will NOT raise octane by any noticeable amount. It will raise the octane, maybe from 87 to 87.1.
Very true. I should have phrased this better, in that the ethanol is being diluted into gasoline, and would only provide a very small ratio in this small dosage.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
"Power" refers to getting work done - more power, more work.

For the sake of discussion we'll use BTUs. A gallon of gasoline provides 114,000 BTUs. A gallon of ethanol contains 76,100 BTUs.

To get the same work done as a gallon of gasoline, we need about 1.5 times as much ethanol.

If the fuel remains constant, increasing the compression ratio increases power, but when we change fuels there are many more factors to be considered.
It's important to emphasize that octane ratings and BTU are not the same thing. Octane ratings describe how much compression a fuel can withstand before detonating. BTU is a measure of energy content in the fuel.

Ethanol does carry a lower BTU than gasoline, but can withstand more compression with a higher octane rating. This means that with 100% ethanol in a high compression engine (that is, an engine that is designed for fuels above 87 octane), MPG would be down because of lower BTU, but horsepower would increase as the engine is designed for fuels that carry a higher octane than regular gasoline. This can manifest itself as quicker acceleration times, increased horsepower, etc. Imagine it as the same reason why you use premium gasoline on performance cars.
_________________________
2007 Ford Focus ZX4 SES - 2.0L Duratec | 4F27E Auto | 82,000 miles
PU 5w20 | MC 910 | Castrol Mercon V

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