01 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 engine, Rotella T6 5W40

[Donald]

Code:




This is a reman engine that has shown somewhat high copper in every UOA since its breakin.



The first two UOAs were PU 10W30 and the last two were Rotella T6. Oil filter for sample #4 was a M1.



Unit time is time on the reman engine, not vehicle.



Sample # 1 2 3 4

Lube time 9622 5184 5606 5334

Unit time 30796 36300 41906 47240

iron 146 43 26 28

chromium 4 1 1 1

nickel 1 0 0 0

copper 23* 12 16 20*

lead 16 8 4 3

tin 2 1 1 1

cadmium 0 0 0 0

silver 0 0 0 0

vanadium 0 0 0 0

silicon 25* 12 13 8

sodium 18 6 6 3

potassium 6 1 5 0

molybdenum 61 58 67 62

antimony 1 0 0 1

manganese 2 0 0 0

lithium 0 0 0 0

boron 280 163 30 21

magnesium 14 14 892 1041

calcium 3611 2651 1008 814

barium 0 0 0 0

phosphorous 772 723 868 942

zinc 923 864 1103 1189

fuel dil.
soot
water
visc. 100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3

TBN 3.40 3.47 4.22*

Oxidation 20* 25*** 17

Nitration 16 12 13





Particle count (in um)



sample # >4 >6 >10 >14 >21 >38 >70 >100

4 419 228 85 38 13 2 0 0



Polaris uses a scale of 0-4 for severity.



0 & 1 are normal, 2 & 3 are abnormal and 4 is critical.



Values flagged with a "*" are flagged for severity.

 

[Chris142]

The rebuilder may have used copper washers to shim the valvesprings to spec.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
The rebuilder may have used copper washers to shim the valvesprings to spec.


OK, was not aware that was done. I will ask Marshall Engines.

 

[A_Harman]

Fuel dilution has increased over the last two oil samples. Maybe due to a lot of cold weather use?
Except for the copper, wear metals have been trending down.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Fuel dilution has increased over the last two oil samples. Maybe due to a lot of cold weather use?
Except for the copper, wear metals have been trending down.


Certainly all cold weather usage for the last UOA. But the vehicle is almost never driven for short trips, only once a week to church. The rest of my driving is 30-45 minutes each way. I will be getting new injectors soon.

 

[Boomer]

Also, is it possible a copper based anti-sieze paste was used somewhere during the rebuild? Or a gasket-in-a-tube containing copper?

 

[Donald]

This is the first time I have requested a PC (particle count) along with the UOA. But I am not sure how to interpret the PC numbers.

 

[Donald]

Aluminum was missing.

Code:




This is a reman engine that has shown somewhat high copper in every UOA since its breakin.



The first two UOAs were PU 10W30 and the last two were Rotella T6. Oil filter for sample #4 was a M1.



Unit time is time on the reman engine, not vehicle.



Sample # 1 2 3 4

Lube time 9622 5184 5606 5334

Unit time 30796 36300 41906 47240

iron 146 43 26 28

chromium 4 1 1 1

nickel 1 0 0 0

aluminum 4 1 1 1

copper 23* 12 16 20*

lead 16 8 4 3

tin 2 1 1 1

cadmium 0 0 0 0

silver 0 0 0 0

vanadium 0 0 0 0

silicon 25* 12 13 8

sodium 18 6 6 3

potassium 6 1 5 0

molybdenum 61 58 67 62

antimony 1 0 0 1

manganese 2 0 0 0

lithium 0 0 0 0

boron 280 163 30 21

magnesium 14 14 892 1041

calcium 3611 2651 1008 814

barium 0 0 0 0

phosphorous 772 723 868 942

zinc 923 864 1103 1189

fuel dil.
soot
water
visc. 100C 11.1 10.2 12.9 13.3

TBN 3.40 3.47 4.22*

Oxidation 20* 25*** 17

Nitration 16 12 13





Particle count (in um)



sample # >4 >6 >10 >14 >21 >38 >70 >100

4 419 228 85 38 13 2 0 0



Polaris uses a scale of 0-4 for severity.



0 & 1 are normal, 2 & 3 are abnormal and 4 is critical.



Values flagged with a "*" are flagged for severity.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Boomer
Also, is it possible a copper based anti-sieze paste was used somewhere during the rebuild? Or a gasket-in-a-tube containing copper?


Good points. Given the low lead, I am thinking its something other than a bearing.

 

[Zaedock]

It could be the crank thrust bearing.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
It could be the crank thrust bearing.


IMHO - it needs to be something that the reman company did or used that was not done on the factory engine. I have not seen any other Jeep 4.0 UOA with copper this high.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
It could be the crank thrust bearing.


IMHO - it needs to be something that the reman company did or used that was not done on the factory engine. I have not seen any other Jeep 4.0 UOA with copper this high.


I agree. The aluminum is trending down to good levels, and so is the iron. The lead is also good now. I'm wondering if the reman company used something like you said. I would try to contact them and show them the elevated copper and see what they think. Everything else looks good though!

 

[Zaedock]

Just trying to think of something internally that would cause elevated copper without other tradition bearing materials present.

 

[KCJeep]

Wow this thing is really settling down. I agree the copper doesn't really make sense something must be up with that I think you guys are on the right track.

I know you were unhappy with some of the UOA's but has the engine run well for you?

 

[Gokhan]

I see -- the last one is with Rotella. It's looking OK. Copper will probably eventually go down.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I see -- the last one is with Rotella. It's looking OK. Copper will probably eventually go down.

However, you might want to stick with a quality 5W-30 SN/GF-5 full synthetic instead of Rotella CJ-4 HDEO. You really don't need the high dose of CJ-4 succinimide soot dispersant in the Rotella, which is acidic. It's just a hypothesis but perhaps that's what's causing high copper levels through acidic corrosion. For a gasoline engine, use a gasoline-engine oil, not an HDEO. Also, the viscosity you need may be a lot thinner than you think and that's why I would recommend a full synthetic 5W-30. With a full synthetic, you don't need to worry about 10W-30 being recommended in the owner's manual, as a fully synthetic 5W-30 won't shear much.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Wow this thing is really settling down. I agree the copper doesn't really make sense something must be up with that I think you guys are on the right track.

I know you were unhappy with some of the UOA's but has the engine run well for you?


The engine runs fine on Rotella T6 or PU.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I see -- the last one is with Rotella. It's looking OK. Copper will probably eventually go down.

However, you might want to stick with a quality 5W-30 SN/GF-5 full synthetic instead of Rotella CJ-4 HDEO. You really don't need the high dose of CJ-4 succinimide soot dispersant in the Rotella, which is acidic. It's just a hypothesis but perhaps that's what's causing high copper levels through acidic corrosion. For a gasoline engine, use a gasoline-engine oil, not an HDEO. Also, the viscosity you need may be a lot thinner than you think and that's why I would recommend a full synthetic 5W-30. With a full synthetic, you don't need to worry about 10W-30 being recommended in the owner's manual, as a fully synthetic 5W-30 won't shear much.


The first two UOAs were PU 10W30. The first UOA started at about 20K, which is when I felt the engine would be broken in. But judging from the UOAs, it was not broken in until after that.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I see -- the last one is with Rotella. It's looking OK. Copper will probably eventually go down.

However, you might want to stick with a quality 5W-30 SN/GF-5 full synthetic instead of Rotella CJ-4 HDEO. You really don't need the high dose of CJ-4 succinimide soot dispersant in the Rotella, which is acidic. It's just a hypothesis but perhaps that's what's causing high copper levels through acidic corrosion. For a gasoline engine, use a gasoline-engine oil, not an HDEO. Also, the viscosity you need may be a lot thinner than you think and that's why I would recommend a full synthetic 5W-30. With a full synthetic, you don't need to worry about 10W-30 being recommended in the owner's manual, as a fully synthetic 5W-30 won't shear much.

The first two UOAs were PU 10W30. The first UOA started at about 20K, which is when I felt the engine would be broken in. But judging from the UOAs, it was not broken in until after that.

I think the acidic succinimide CJ-4 soot dispersants (or something else) in the Rotella CJ-4 HDEO may be causing a copper-corrosion problem and you may want to go back to PU 10W-30 or 5W-30 (5W-30 probably better year-around) SN/GF-5 PCMO. Your copper levels started increasing after you switched to Rotella CJ-4 HDEO.

 

[Zaedock]

I agree with Gokhan, Don. I've settled on using 5W30 SOPUS grpIII syns in my Jeeps and it seems to work well. Much more free revving than a 40 wt, which is important when pushing 600+lbs of off road tires.