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#3303990 - 03/06/14 11:34 PM '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample
WRX12tt Offline


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Denver, CO
I took a mid-interval sample to see how the TBN is holding up, and I'd like to run it to the factory-recommended 7,500 mi OCI; Subaru OEM blue filter, as usual. Easy driving for the most part and lots of winter idling, a few autocross events during this interval.

Code:
Oil----------------------  Factory Fill ------ Edge OE 5w30---Pennzoil Platinum 5w30---	Pennzoil Ultra 5w30--- Mobil 1 ESP 5w30--- Universal Averages
Miles In Use               3,002               4,048	      3,351			4,547		       4,889	       			
Miles on Unit              3,002               7,050	      10,401			14,948		       19,837
Date Changed               2/1/13              5/10/13	      8/05/13			11/11/13	       2/28/14
Make up Oil Added--------- 0 Qts. ------------ 0 Qts. ------- 0 Qts. ------------------ 0.6 Qts. ------------- 0 Qts.

Aluminum------------------ 7 ----------------- 9 ------------ 6 ----------------------- 5 ---------------------4 ----------------- 4
Chromium                   1                   1              1                        	1		       1                   1  
Iron                       34                  16             14                      	11		       10                  9
Copper                     27                  9              7                        	5		       3                   9
Lead---------------------- 0 ----------------- 0 ------------ 0 ----------------------- 0 -------------------- 0 ----------------- 3
Tin                        4                   3              2                        	0		       0                   1
Molybdenum                 1079                435            118                      	70		       81                  72
Nickel                     0                   0              0                        	0		       1                   0
Manganese                  2                   1              1                        	0		       0                   1
Silver-------------------- 2 ----------------- 1 ------------ 0 ----------------------- 1 -------------------- 1 ----------------- 0
Titanium                   0                   1              0                        	2		       0                   0
Potassium                  2                   2              2                        	1		       0                   2
Boron                      198                 26             6                        	60		       126                 46
Silicon                    89                  19             10                      	5		       4                   11
Sodium-------------------- 8 ----------------- 6 ------------ 1 ----------------------- 2 -------------------- 3 ----------------- 28
Calcium                    2105                1777           2388                     	2422		       1218                2006
Magnesium                  12                  6              12                       	15		       6                   369
Phosphorous                892                 680            725                      	798		       695                 810
Zinc---------------------- 1082 -------------- 802 ---------- 831 --------------------- 842 ------------------ 778 --------------- 960
Barium                     2                   1              0                        	0		       0                   0

SUS Viscosity @ 210F------ 52.4 -------------- 66.1 --------- 58.9 -------------------- 57.3 ----------------- 62.8 -------------- 56-63					
cSt Viscosity @ 100C       7.99                11.91          9.91                     	9.44		       11.0                9.1-11.3
Flashpoint in F            405                 435	      405                      	425		       410                 >365
Fuel                       <0.5                <0.5           <0.5                     	<0.5		       <0.5                <2.0
Antifreeze %-------------- 0.0 --------------- 0.0 ---------- 0.0 --------------------- 0.0 ------------------ 0.0 --------------- 0.0
Water %.                   0.0                 0.0            0.0                      	0.0		       0.0                 <0.1
Insolubles %               0.2                 0.3            0.1                      	0.3		       0.4                 <0.6
TBN                        N/A                 2.8	      N/A			5.2                    3.0



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#3304151 - 03/07/14 07:21 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: WRX12tt]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1837
Loc: NJ
Nice! The TBN retention is pretty impressive. Here's a voa I found:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2113520

And this is why we can't only consider the numbers in front of us.

Did you sample it through the dipstick tube? It will be interesting to see how it holds up after future runs. You would be fine (according to the manual) topping this up with 5W-40 ESP after you took the sample. Did you top up with more 5W-30 ESP?

-Dennis


Edited by bluesubie (03/07/14 07:26 AM)
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

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#3304186 - 03/07/14 07:56 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: bluesubie]
BISCUT Offline


Registered: 12/28/11
Posts: 1350
Loc: NewYorkistan
Why only 3300k on the PP fill? I can see the short FF and the next short run but why continue with under 5k when using the oils meant for much longer? I'm not a extend way out there kinda guy but even I'm at 7500 with M1.

Not prying or giving you any bull just wondering what the thought process is on this one.
_________________________
2010 Nissan Armada/Mobil1 5-30 P1(86k)
2008 BMW 328XI Mobil 1 0-40(80k)
2004 F-150 Lariat/M1 EX 5-20 P1(91k)
1995 Toyota Camry/ST SYN Fram Ult(116k)

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#3304238 - 03/07/14 08:49 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: BISCUT]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1837
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
Why only 3300k on the PP fill? I can see the short FF and the next short run but why continue with under 5k when using the oils meant for much longer? I'm not a extend way out there kinda guy but even I'm at 7500 with M1.

Not prying or giving you any bull just wondering what the thought process is on this one.


Probably because Resource Conserving oils haven't had such a great history in WRX's. It's only been a few years since Subaru of America allowed intervals of over 3,750 miles in a turbo. And that's only for the MY2011 and later models (for WRX's).

You couldn't pay me to run a 7,500 mile interval on an RC oil in my Forester. Well you could, but it would have to enough to pay for a new turbo and possibly a rebuild. wink

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

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#3304298 - 03/07/14 09:42 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: bluesubie]
WRX12tt Offline


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Nice! The TBN retention is pretty impressive. Here's a voa I found:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2113520

And this is why we can't only consider the numbers in front of us.

Did you sample it through the dipstick tube? It will be interesting to see how it holds up after future runs. You would be fine (according to the manual) topping this up with 5W-40 ESP after you took the sample. Did you top up with more 5W-30 ESP?

-Dennis

Cool, thanks for posting the VOA. Too bad he didn't sample 5w30, it would've been nice to see the starting KV100. Also, I'm assuming TBN depletion is not linear? If you assume it's linear, I think I should still be okay TBN-wise at 7.5k.

Yes, I bought a $2 siphon pump at the auto parts store and sampled through the dipstick tube. I topped up with more ESP 5w30, to the full line. It was almost a quart down after taking the sample. Good idea on topping up with 5w40, I'll have to try that.


Originally Posted By: BISCUT
Why only 3300k on the PP fill? I can see the short FF and the next short run but why continue with under 5k when using the oils meant for much longer? I'm not a extend way out there kinda guy but even I'm at 7500 with M1.

Not prying or giving you any bull just wondering what the thought process is on this one.


No worries. I know it probably seems odd, but Bluesubie guessed correctly. Since spun bearings are common on these cars, just being on the cautious side when it comes to Resource Conserving oils. I was comfortable running the Pennzoil Ultra oil to 5k because I've seen some UOAs on this car and results were pretty good. There was less data on the Pennzoil Platinum, so I decided to err on the side of caution and change it at the old Subaru turbo interval of 3,750 mi (although a week and 400 miles earlier, since it was convenient). I think I would've been fine running it to 5k.

I like the results from the ESP though. I'm comfortable running it to the factory-recommended interval of 7,500 miles.

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#3304917 - 03/07/14 09:05 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: WRX12tt]
rrounds Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 433
Loc: SACRAMENTO, CA
Look at the Moly in the factory fill, what is the factory fill? Calcium up there to.
I would try to find that oil.

ROD
_________________________
'06 S2000
'00 SSEi
'08 Ford F53 V10
'13 Jeep Sahara 2 door

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#3304948 - 03/07/14 09:42 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: bluesubie]
KHP Offline


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 168
Loc: Reno, NV
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Probably because Resource Conserving oils haven't had such a great history in WRX's. It's only been a few years since Subaru of America allowed intervals of over 3,750 miles in a turbo. And that's only for the MY2011 and later models (for WRX's).

You couldn't pay me to run a 7,500 mile interval on an RC oil in my Forester. Well you could, but it would have to enough to pay for a new turbo and possibly a rebuild. wink

-Dennis


Actually I've always wondered how Subaru managed to extend oil change intervals on the +2011 WRX/STI's to 7,500 Miles. All the turbo failure stories worried me, but I'm glad I trusted Subaru on their decision to extend OCI.

I stumbled upon the 2011 service manual:


They have improved the oil delivery to the turbocharger by separating it from the OCV supply. The turbocharger line do not have banjo bolt filter so there's nothing to block the supply and since its a dedicated line oil pressure and flow is pretty much guaranteed.

42,000 Miles on the clock at 7,500 OCI on my 2011 WRX. Using GTL PU 5W30 Resource Conserving and all is still well.

Do not try this on models before 2011 though.


Edited by KHP (03/07/14 09:48 PM)
_________________________
2011 Impreza WRX Limited (46k Mi): OCI = 7.5K Mi - Pennzoil Ultra 5w/10w30 - OEM blue oil filter/P1 PL14612

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#3304974 - 03/07/14 10:16 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: rrounds]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1837
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: rrounds
Look at the Moly in the factory fill, what is the factory fill? Calcium up there to.
I would try to find that oil.

ROD

Unfortunately, it's not sold to the public. It's Idemitsu, but a more robust version than the dealer oil.

KHP - Thanks for that!

I recall reading posts on nasioc about that but it's the first time I've actually seen the FSM pics. Still running my banjo bolt screens, even after my turbo failure, based on the lead Sr. master tech at my dealership convincing me that leaving them in to block debris outweighed the benefit of removing them to prevent sludge build-up.

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

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#3305052 - 03/08/14 12:11 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: WRX12tt]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1547
Loc: Los Angeles, California
I should note that TBN alone is a useless determination of remaining oil life. What matters is the difference of TBN from TAN. This is especially so with Mg-based oils like certain M1 formulations, which don't neutralize the acids effectively, which means the additive doesn't work hard and TBN stays high despite TAN increasing rapidly. So, the only reason TBN is staying high is because the detergent is failing to neutralize the harmful acids. I hope this is clear.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3306370 - 03/09/14 05:52 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: Gokhan]
WRX12tt Offline


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I should note that TBN alone is a useless determination of remaining oil life. What matters is the difference of TBN from TAN. This is especially so with Mg-based oils like certain M1 formulations, which don't neutralize the acids effectively, which means the additive doesn't work hard and TBN stays high despite TAN increasing rapidly. So, the only reason TBN is staying high is because the detergent is failing to neutralize the harmful acids. I hope this is clear.

Do you suggest getting a TBN as well as a TAN to gauge remaining oil life?

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#3306578 - 03/09/14 09:54 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: WRX12tt]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1547
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: WRX12tt
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I should note that TBN alone is a useless determination of remaining oil life. What matters is the difference of TBN from TAN. This is especially so with Mg-based oils like certain M1 formulations, which don't neutralize the acids effectively, which means the additive doesn't work hard and TBN stays high despite TAN increasing rapidly. So, the only reason TBN is staying high is because the detergent is failing to neutralize the harmful acids. I hope this is clear.

Do you suggest getting a TBN as well as a TAN to gauge remaining oil life?

Ideally, yes.

You want TBN to stay above TAN. Blackstone TBNs are a little underestimated due to an outdated test method though. So, perhaps if you have Blackstone TBN and TAN data, you want the TBN to be no less than about TAN - 2.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3306594 - 03/09/14 10:26 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: Gokhan]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1547
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: WRX12tt
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I should note that TBN alone is a useless determination of remaining oil life. What matters is the difference of TBN from TAN. This is especially so with Mg-based oils like certain M1 formulations, which don't neutralize the acids effectively, which means the additive doesn't work hard and TBN stays high despite TAN increasing rapidly. So, the only reason TBN is staying high is because the detergent is failing to neutralize the harmful acids. I hope this is clear.

Do you suggest getting a TBN as well as a TAN to gauge remaining oil life?

Ideally, yes.

You want TBN to stay above TAN. Blackstone TBNs are a little underestimated due to an outdated test method though. So, perhaps if you have Blackstone TBN and TAN data, you want the TBN to be no less than about TAN - 2.

Actually the difference between ASTM D-2896 and D-4739 doesn't seem that great. See this reference (PDF link).

So, I think TBN > TAN is a good criteria for optimally serviceable oil, even with the older test method for TBN.

Also, see this previous discussion.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3306627 - 03/09/14 11:07 PM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: Gokhan]
WRX12tt Offline


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Denver, CO
Great, thanks for the info! Very interesting - I'll have a look.

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#3308118 - 03/11/14 09:24 AM Re: '13 WRX: Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, 4,889 mi Sample [Re: WRX12tt]
WRX12tt Offline


Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Denver, CO
I had the TAN run on the same sample and it ended up being 2.2. Hopefully it'll stay under the TBN until 7.5k.


Edited by WRX12tt (03/11/14 09:25 AM)

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